[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by JohnWickFan

I KNOW I am going to get bashed for this as I am not a purist...the one thing that holds me back from a M2 is the very very low end torque...I'm old....I like to light up the rear tires without having to try (brake rev, etc. etc.). If MY25 came with the mild drive hybrid I would love the car...the M340i and M440i have it...love it. Just don't love the cars. In every video I have watched the M lite beats the M off the line and typically about to 1/8 of a mile.....which is when I let off the gas during every day driving. Bash away..lol

if you can't light up the tires off the line with the M2 thats a skill issue, and if you cant have a tremendous amount of fun in this car you have no soul/dont actually like cars. i pray BMW does not listen to you and keeps this ICE only until end of production.

[JohnWickFan]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

if you can't light up the tires off the line with the M2 thats a skill issue, and if you cant have a tremendous amount of fun in this car you have no soul/dont actually like cars. i pray BMW does not listen to you and keeps this ICE only until end of production.

"Skill issue"......with real displacement motors, the only skill required is to put the car in drive, completely let off the brake, and hit the gas....light em up all day long. These new 'efficient' low compression small displacement motors require brake revving (ie power braking) to get the revs up before dropping the hammer and letting off the brake. So it doing what could be the worst thing to do to a car is referred to as a 'skill', then you are correct. I don't have that skill.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by MTiz

Who cares about 0-60 times? This car isn't for that.

Anyway, will sell my soul for a Twilight Purple on Cognac G87 w/ ZF8 transmission . That would look absolutely perfect next to my E46 M3.

Now the million dollar question is sunroof or carbon roof

Many buyers are interested in 0-60 times.

What “the car is for” depends on the individual.

IMO

[Tag]

Whenever 0-60 discussions pop up, I lose attention in them in less than 1.9s.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by JohnWickFan

I KNOW I am going to get bashed for this as I am not a purist...the one thing that holds me back from a M2 is the very very low end torque...I'm old....I like to light up the rear tires without having to try (brake rev, etc. etc.). If MY25 came with the mild drive hybrid I would love the car...the M340i and M440i have it...love it. Just don't love the cars. In every video I have watched the M lite beats the M off the line and typically about to 1/8 of a mile.....which is when I let off the gas during every day driving. Bash away..lol

I would recommend taking a look at a F series BMW M. The S55 made gobs of torque down low and ran out of juice up top. I could roast the tires on my F87C with a small clutch dump, but you're also getting wheel hop. The S58 is tuned differently and provides power all throughout the rev range compared to the S55. You can of course tune these cars to change those characteristics but I think you'll be really messing with the balance of it. I would see if you can find a used G series M2/3/4 to see if you like the way it drives. I also suppose you can get less grippy tires. The thing is, the suspension setup on these cars is phenomenal and provides a ton of grip even with the high HP/TQ figures these cars have.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

I would recommend taking a look at a F series BMW M. The S55 made gobs of torque down low and ran out of juice up top. I could roast the tires on my F87C with a small clutch dump, but you're also getting wheel hop. The S58 is tuned differently and provides power all throughout the rev range compared to the S55. You can of course tune these cars to change those characteristics but I think you'll be really messing with the balance of it. I would see if you can find a used G series M2/3/4 to see if you like the way it drives. I also suppose you can get less grippy tires. The thing is, the suspension setup on these cars is phenomenal and provides a ton of grip even with the high HP/TQ figures these cars have.

Wheel hop was one of the most annoying things with my F87. The reworked suspension of the G87 doesn't have that problem anymore.

BMW answers a question about wheel hop on the G87.

Guess who submitted that question.

[JohnWickFan]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

I would recommend taking a look at a F series BMW M. The S55 made gobs of torque down low and ran out of juice up top. I could roast the tires on my F87C with a small clutch dump, but you're also getting wheel hop. The S58 is tuned differently and provides power all throughout the rev range compared to the S55. You can of course tune these cars to change those characteristics but I think you'll be really messing with the balance of it. I would see if you can find a used G series M2/3/4 to see if you like the way it drives. I also suppose you can get less grippy tires. The thing is, the suspension setup on these cars is phenomenal and provides a ton of grip even with the high HP/TQ figures these cars have.

Thanks...but there is no tuning in the world that will give a small displacement low compression turbo motor the instantaneous torque of a big block. If it wasn't for all the BS regulations the M cars would have 4L turbo engines like they used to......and they can be tuned to pull all the way thru the rpm band.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by JohnWickFan

Thanks...but there is no tuning in the world that will give a small displacement low compression turbo motor the instantaneous torque of a big block. If it wasn't for all the BS regulations the M cars would have 4L turbo engines like they used to......and they can be tuned to pull all the way thru the rpm band.

are you sure you are on the right forum? did i miss the Chevy logo up top? maybe you need a tesla, perfect for muh instant big block torque!!!!!!!!111!!

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Conflating compression ratios with displacement and efficiency… stating M cars “used to have 4L engines” (the S68 has been 4.4L for years and years), the M3 had that engine for less than 5 years, so to say they represent what M3s “used to be”, since 1988 is mental gymnastics.

There’s lots to learn about cars and engines, so to say things based on lack of information is not an “opinion”…

hey thats 4L TURBO engines (which as everyone knows, means its a BIG BLOCK) to you pal. them motors didnt need to stinkin power brakin, all you had to do was use your dinosaur claw to move the shifter to D and LIGHT EM UP... huh? 6 MT? no clue what yer talkin about

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by Tag

Wheel hop was one of the most annoying things with my F87. The reworked suspension of the G87 doesn't have that problem anymore.

BMW answers a question about wheel hop on the G87.

Guess who submitted that question.

I’ll take TAG for $500 Alex.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Conflating compression ratios with displacement and efficiency… stating M cars “used to have 4L engines” (the S68 has been 4.4L for years and years), the M3 had that engine for less than 5 years, so to say they represent what M3s “used to be”, since 1988 is mental gymnastics.

There’s lots to learn about cars and engines, so to say things based on lack of information is not an “opinion”…

Also the 4.0 V8 S65 had less torque and power than the S58 at all revs from 2500RPM to the redline. About 360NM (94kW) at 2500RPM, 400Nm at 3500RPM at the start of the torque plateau, dropping to 350Nm (308kW) at the 8400RPM redline. In comparison the S58 has about 400Nm (105kW) at 2500RPM, 550NM at the start of the torque plateau at 2650RPM, dropping to 440Nm (332kW) at the 7200RPM redline.

A launch at 2500RPM is quite mild and not abusive to the clutch.

[Say Chi Sin Lo]

"Lighting up the tires"... that's still a thing?

[JMcLellan]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Nothing to bash other than lack of knowledge.

1- the low end torque is not due to not having a mild hybrid system. Those systems do not give you meaningful power to “light up the tires with no effort”, they are meant to drive the engine and move the car at a very low speed.
2- those cars have higher low end torque because they have 1 turbo, not 2, so all cylinders drive that one rotor and compressor more quickly.
3- low end torque is meaningless for acceleration, so the reason the M-lite cars you’ve seen are quicker to accelerate is because they have all-wheel drive. It’s not possible for a car with higher torque/power and roughly the same weight and same drive configuration (RWD) to accelerate more slowly. The M2/M3 have more torque and way more power than the M240i/M3-440i.

I want to pile onto this. When I compare the feeling between my 2019 M240i RWD to the 10 miles or so I had on my G87 test drive my M240i "feels" faster because of the low to mid range torque. The G87 did not "feel" as fast but after a few miles and watching the speedometer climb I was convinced the car is pretty quick. Then there is the over 4K RPM's in 3rd gear and feeling the car scream up to redline. It's just a whole different feeling with the S58 compared to the B58.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by JohnWickFan

Thanks...but there is no tuning in the world that will give a small displacement low compression turbo motor the instantaneous torque of a big block. If it wasn't for all the BS regulations the M cars would have 4L turbo engines like they used to......and they can be tuned to pull all the way thru the rpm band.

My 1969 GTX 440 had 375 lb.ft. @2000rpm
My 2024 G87 has 375 lb.ft. @2000rpm

Darn those low compression turbos

[Tag]

Originally Posted by JohnWickFan

"Skill issue"......with real displacement motors, the only skill required is to put the car in drive, completely let off the brake, and hit the gas....light em up all day long. These new 'efficient' low compression small displacement motors require brake revving (ie power braking) to get the revs up before dropping the hammer and letting off the brake. So it doing what could be the worst thing to do to a car is referred to as a 'skill', then you are correct. I don't have that skill.

Chris Harris would disagree with you.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by M2siast

But the GTX made up for the lower torque by having a higher redline than the S58 and a much higher compression, because it didn’t care about efficiency back then.

Higher redline? Never.
Torque, 475lb.ft, peaked at 3200rpm and horsepower, 375hp, peaked at 5000rpm. This was a grunt engine.
Higher redline motors (all small blocks) were the mechanical lifter high compression Boss 302, Z/28, etc. motors. The Z28 motors from 67-69 were actually almost lifeless until 4000rpm. Boss 302 very similar. They were not great “street racers”.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

yeah people are getting way too bent out of shape over a marketing HP bump, the car is already super fast

The paint options should be the main point of contention, crazy how limited the choices have been on a M-car

I don't understand this dismissal. For the same price, they could have their exact same car with better performance by simply waiting a year. This isn't OK. With new generations it makes sense as there is plenty of lead up and EOL notices, etc.

[adc]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Exactly, much higher specific output than the S58…

Absolutely not. Those were very large displacement motors, 6-7L and more, so their specific output is much smaller than the S58. Even if you believed the 1960-s HP claims.

[iifymbro]

Originally Posted by stefan

I don't understand this dismissal. For the same price, they could have their exact same car with better performance by simply waiting a year. This isn't OK. With new generations it makes sense as there is plenty of lead up and EOL notices, etc.

They'll have to pay more for it I'd imagine, and it remains to be seen if it'll even be a real hp bump or just marketing since we all know bmw isn't exactly super accurate with their power claims

[Tag]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

They'll have to pay more for it I'd imagine, and it remains to be seen if it'll even be a real hp bump or just marketing since we all know bmw isn't exactly super accurate with their power claims

BMW underrates the power of their cars, yet people seem to think that when the same automaker that gave you more power than advertised then increases the power in a new model year it's somehow nothing but marketing.

For those that are still in denial out there you can hold my feet to the fire on this. It will not only make more power but just as the current car makes more than advertised so will new one with the hp bump. Sorry if anyone got butthurt over this, not my intention, just tired of hearing all the BS that BMW is internationally misleading everyone.

[iifymbro]

Originally Posted by Tag

BMW underrates the power of their cars, yet people seem to think that when the same automaker that gave you more power than advertised then increases the power in a new model year it's somehow nothing but marketing.

For those that are still in denial out there you can hold my feet to the fire on this. It will not only make more power but just as the current car makes more than advertised so will new one with the hp bump. Sorry if anyone got butthurt over this, not my intention, just tired of hearing all the BS that BMW is internationally misleading everyone.

I say it more as just a practical real-world difference, both versions will be "fast af" when you mash the go pedal on the street, marketing will hype the 20hp increase and it can get into people's heads but it's not really that much in practical terms, certainly not worth losing any sleep over.

The manual box might be a limiting factor in actually bumping hp/tq but I haven't looked into it, these manufacturers tend to ride the line between clutch ease of daily use and power holding

[MTiz]

Originally Posted by stefan

I don't understand this dismissal. For the same price, they could have their exact same car with better performance by simply waiting a year. This isn't OK. With new generations it makes sense as there is plenty of lead up and EOL notices, etc.

This happened with every single M car in the F-series generation so I don't see what the big deal is. F1x M5/M6, F8x M2/3/4, hell even the F90 M5 all got power bumps when their LCI versions came out via the competition package. This is not new for BMW.

Is it the fact that the cars are getting a power bump even though there is no "competition package" available, or is this just earlier owners upset that a faster version of their car is coming out? I promise your car will still feel just as fast.