[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

I enjoyed the ZF8 in my F22 but as good as it is, it doesn’t compare in feel to DCT/DSG/PDK (M2, GTI, 718). The driving character is different. Not as different as going 6MT to auto, but definitely different.

The lack of a DCT is a negative. It’s just like the choice to go to EPS or to turbocharging.

The problem with these cars is the additive effect of all of these easy but numbing choices. It’s harder to engineer a high output NA engine with a MT with strong clutch (or DCT with strong clutch).

And eventually we just end up with a 3800-pound numb experience.

All that said, there’s no question that the new car is designed with the ZF8 in mind and that probably the 6MT is the wrong transmission.

I absolutely loved the character and complexity of the DCT on my e93 10 years ago. Such a blast and a fun learning curve. Basically a manual without the work. I wonder if it could handle the brutality of the torque on these latest s58 engines though. PDK is a superior transmission without a doubt. I’m glad this topic came up because I absolutely found the ZF8 livable but boring.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Based on what real data, vs a belief? The real dyno results that have been posted for G8x and F9x S58 stock engined vehicles all show the torque at 2000RPM at about 60% or so of maximum and where below 2000RPM is shown, 50% of maximum is normal at 1900RPM, it is certainly not like the S55 at those revs where 100% of torque has been reached.

For example: https://www.motor1.com/photo/5666110...-distribution/

https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/ima...8-engine_2.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/evolve...e/52468072056/

I would also trust the engineers design goals expressed in BMW training matertial for the S58 engine over unverified 3rd party data not based on any measured results.

Based on my car and experience, first of all, and second the document doesn’t specifically reference the application in the G87 or the G80/82/83. Lastly, the torque numbers and horsepower numbers are incorrect. So no, I don’t believe those charts.

[murderspice]

“If I owned an old f87 m2, I’d hold onto it.” Basically, what made the 1m and f87 great has been “consigned to history.” Unfortunately, those shoes were too big to fill.

[zero21]

[QUOTE=hoyasaxa;29999632]500 pounds for a weak 10% power:weight improvement.



I love BMW and they’re making me sad. And I originally commented because the fanboys were dragging TH[/QUOTE

Yeah, because the video was lame and bad TV. Forget about the car, it was two dudes who couldn't find anything fun about rowing gears in the mountains in a fast car.

Who gripes about that?

[hoyasaxa]

Originally Posted by murderspice

“If I owned an old f87 m2, I’d hold onto it.” Basically, what made the 1m and f87 great has been “consigned to history.” Unfortunately, those shoes were too big to fill.

Not a popular sentiment in these parts but I agree

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by YKIGI

The brand went totally mainstream 15 years ago or more and hasn’t cared about anything other than selling badges while riding on the coattails of their original story ever since. Let me clue you in, these aren’t BMWs. They are consumer goods for the masses. Overpriced, heavy, plastic coated garbage.

Amen. People getting worked up and tying their identities in a car.

[10"]

Originally Posted by DO444

Do you have id8?
I criticized it too based on looks and now I have it.

It’s awesome.
Fits nicely on the dash and it’s solid. Doesn’t move at all. The software is great, very quick.

I do think a lot of this is just people being upset that it’s not what it was. You’re right, it’s not what it was, but it is objectively better in every way.

I applaud BMW for putting function over form. The whole “takes multiple button presses” is way overblown. There’s no need for buttons when you speak to the car and tell it what you want it to do. If you really like using your hands to change your comfort settings then you can do that easily, but it is not what it was.

Imo, it’s better.

Id8 is flipping fantastic.
The screens can be shut off at night btw, there’s no downside.

It’s not what it was.
It’s objectively better.

In addition, everyone… literally everyone, remarks how the G series finally has an interior worthy of its price. Best BMW interior I’ve ever seen, easy. It makes much more expensive cars from the past 5yr look sad.

Borderline thinking this is just a troll at this point because there’s no way anyone could legit say the F series has a better interior than the G. That’s laughable.

I am just glad I don’t see the world like you! 😂😂

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by YKIGI

The brand went totally mainstream 15 years ago or more and hasn’t cared about anything other than selling badges while riding on the coattails of their original story ever since. Let me clue you in, these aren’t BMWs. They are consumer goods for the masses. Overpriced, heavy, plastic coated garbage.

Did you type this out from the lobby of the Alfa Romeo dealership you've visited 7 times this month?

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Based on my car and experience, first of all, and second the document doesn’t specifically reference the application in the G87 or the G80/82/83. Lastly, the torque numbers and horsepower numbers are incorrect. So no, I don’t believe those charts.

That is all nice, but without your G80 dyno charts, it doesn’t really give any useful data points. The charts I posted (including for the G82) show the consistency of low torque at 2000RPM and below for a variety of S58 implementations, all with the common 50/60% max torque at 2000RPM and below, building to max torque after 2600RPM.

[DO444]

Originally Posted by 10"

I am just glad I don’t see the world like you! 😂😂

Another pointless post with no position beyond, troll.

Safe to say we’re both glad.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by zero21

I understand what you're getting at but you're also spreading misinformation.

The current M3/M4 also have single floating rear caliper, steel strut brace, electric parking brake, etc. There was no decontenting other than turning the engine down (for obvious marketing reasons).

I am not, my comparison was made specifically with the F87 M2s. If compared with the F82 M4, G8x generation is further missing the carbon fiber driveshaft and the carbon fiber reinforced plastic trunk. Hence the de-contenting compared to the previous gen.

I looked at the post again, my grammar is to blame. Edited that.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by hoyasaxa

Not a popular sentiment in these parts but I agree

I also wish I had kept my manual F80 comp at 3560 lbs, I enjoyed it more than my G80 comp X at 3990. This video where he says the car is nervous - what he means is they dialed the chassis to ridiculous lengths, and what was once a relatively enjoyably supple ride on all gen M3’s - dialed in with EDC in later editions - is now a punishing one whenever one hits a road reflector or lane cap. Comfort dampers help, but it’s essentially a dialed up chassis for the track where it feels most comfortable.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by aerobod

That is all nice, but without your G80 dyno charts, it doesn’t really give any useful data points. The charts I posted (including for the G82) show the consistency of low torque at 2000RPM and below for a variety of S58 implementations, all with the common 50/60% max torque at 2000RPM and below, building to max torque after 2600RPM.

Agree to disagree. But someone needs to provide another opinion here because this is the crux of the issue, scientifically speaking. Your chart must be for an X3M or something because it shows the wrong torque and horsepower for the G87

[CC3586]

This one from PSI (Precision Sport Industries)

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by F87 M2 CS

I think it would make more sense to stop comparing the first with the second generation. Each car should have its own character. They cant just make the same car all over again and the idea is still there ! I think we should be glad this car exists !

I don't know what you expected.. but did you think people would sit around and take it to the chin when the bean counters basically took away the core elements that made the first gen M2 great? "At least it's here so be grateful" attitude is what caused blandness to creep into the M brand.
Another issue is there is no Andreas Preuninger equivalent at the M division. No one at the helm seems to have the guts or desire to fight and push for pure M cars.

[TheMaxXHD]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I’m glad this topic came up because I absolutely found the ZF8 livable but boring.

That’s subjective. Which is my whole point. It’s a great transmission. The best? No. One of the best? Yes.

Saying the ZF8 is livable but boring? Eh. Have you been in a GM auto or a Subaru CVT? That’s livable but boring. The ZF8, is a game changer compared to those.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by TheMaxXHD

That’s subjective. Which is my whole point. It’s a great transmission. The best? No. One of the best? Yes.

Saying the ZF8 is livable but boring? Eh. Have you been in a GM auto or a Subaru CVT? That’s livable but boring. The ZF8, is a game changer compared to those.

Lol 😂 is it subjective? Are you sure? What does it even mean that I said it’s boring?

You’re cherry-picking and taking my words out of context, it is livable but boring compared to the DCT or PDK. Obviously that’s what I meant. A CVT hahahaha

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by CC3586

This one from PSI (Precision Sport Industries)

Repost, page 29 and at the top of the page.

https://g42.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...&postcount=617

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Agree to disagree. But someone needs to provide another opinion here because this is the crux of the issue, scientifically speaking. Your chart must be for an X3M or something because it shows the wrong torque and horsepower for the G87

The G87 has no external dyno results as far as I know, as indicated several times these are representative S58 charts. The ultimate torque value is not as important as the ratio of torque values at the lower RPMs (18mph in 2nd gear was the stated case, equating to 1900RPM). No S58 chart seen so far has a torque value much different from 50% of maximum at 1900RPM, why would the G87 S58 be any different with the same architecture as all other S58s, compression ratio, turbo size and quoted 2600RPM to reach maximum torque? Why would it be much higher than 275Nm at 1900RPM, at which point it would be producing 55kW?

In one of the posted videos from last week (the one with the BMW engineer, I think), it was also stated that the engine is tuned in this way due to the lower starting compression ratio and larger turbo at the expense of low end torque, to provide a much better top end and more linear power delivery for a turbo engine overall.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by DO444

Do you have id8?
I criticized it too based on looks and now I have it.

It’s awesome.
Fits nicely on the dash and it’s solid. Doesn’t move at all. The software is great, very quick.

I do think a lot of this is just people being upset that it’s not what it was. You’re right, it’s not what it was, but it is objectively better in every way.

I applaud BMW for putting function over form. The whole “takes multiple button presses” is way overblown. There’s no need for buttons when you speak to the car and tell it what you want it to do. If you really like using your hands to change your comfort settings then you can do that easily, but it is not what it was.

Imo, it’s better.

Id8 is flipping fantastic.
The screens can be shut off at night btw, there’s no downside.

It’s not what it was.
It’s objectively better.

In addition, everyone… literally everyone, remarks how the G series finally has an interior worthy of its price. Best BMW interior I’ve ever seen, easy. It makes much more expensive cars from the past 5yr look sad.

Borderline thinking this is just a troll at this point because there’s no way anyone could legit say the F series has a better interior than the G. That’s laughable.

I find screen based interiors cheesy, ugly and potentially fatiguing to the eyes. No place in a drivers car - See Mazda for interiors done right.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The G87 has no external dyno results as far as I know, as indicated several times these are representative S58 charts. The ultimate torque value is not as important as the ratio of torque values at the lower RPMs (18mph in 2nd gear was the stated case, equating to 1900RPM). No S58 chart seen so far has a torque value much different from 50% of maximum at 1900RPM, why would the G87 S58 be any different with the same architecture as all other S58s, compression ratio, turbo size and quoted 2600RPM to reach maximum torque? Why would it be much higher than 275Nm at 1900RPM, at which point it would be producing 55kW?

In one of the posted videos from last week (the one with the BMW engineer, I think), it was also stated that the engine is tuned in this way due to the lower starting compression ratio and larger turbo at the expense of low end torque, to provide a much better top end and more linear power delivery for a turbo engine overall.

Good points. Totally fair and accurate assessment of 1800 rpm in 2nd and I agree that max torque is about 2600. No debate there. The other issue just to make sure it’s not lost in the shuffle is boost. What happens when you build boost, downshift and take off in second versus no boost, basically idling around then try to take off? These guys are biased in their treatment here imho.

[CodeSlinger]

I think I need to log off this thread for my own sanity lol.

I think it's important for the f87 owners to understand that alot of the people excited for the g87 were looking for a newer, more powerful, more refined version of the f87, and by all accounts that looks like what we got.

I do get the disappointment from people who wanted the same low traction, tail happiness that they found in the f87, it sucks if that's what you were looking for. I think the f87 will live alongside the g87 for a long time with it's independent character.

But it's a new generation, and judged objectively, seems like a great drivers car, if in some different ways to the f87.

Ciao