[Squidget]

Originally Posted by micah_675

Now I've had the tires skip and bounce because of the cold, but that isn't wheel hop it's the fact that I don't have a second set of tires (yet) and it's been in the 20s here.

Yeah, this might be a problem with definitions. To me, wheel hop isn't a tire / conditions thing. ANY car can lose traction in bad conditions or with improper tires, that's not a property of the car itself. And you've got 400 ftlb of torque, of course you can break traction at will if you hammer down.

I personally define wheel hop as unexpected breakaway of the tire due to suspension, usually weight transfer mixed with bad spring/damp/rebound rates. In other words, the tire lacks downforce to maintain traction with the surface. Typically occurring in corners or uneven pavement.

Alternately, it can be a from a diff that can't properly manage power and overloads a tire, breaking traction in a corner.

Using this definition, I haven't noticed any wheelhop on the G87. It's very planted, very tolerant of uneven pavement, the diff is great at managing power.

And sure, yes, the softer springs make the back a little easier to kick out when compared to the G8x, but I'd just call that "fun", not wheel hop, because it's totally predictable.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by Shadak

So what was the temp when you did experience the hop? car was designed in Germany (i would think), not sure what kinds of tests they do in what temps but at 60F (15C) i certainly didnt get any. At 20F, we already "have" to have winters on in most of central Europe. Not saying it cant happen, just saying at 20F i wouldnt really want 4S on a rwd car (at least in europe).

I posted all the details on a thread. I’ve gotten hop at 56F and 46-48F with properly warmed ~75-80F tires.

Car was an auto, and no I was not trying to launch with launch control, just doing moderate acceleration (around the limit of grip, around 50% throttle).

This is not a temperature thing. If anything, I think with more grip causes more wheel hop.

The only reason I can see you not getting hop with winter tires is that winter tires have lousy max grip compared to good summer performance tires in the dry.

P.S. you guys need to get real data and experience vs just repeating catch phrases. Even at 0C/32F a properly warned summer performance tire will have more grip on dry clean roads than a winter tire. Been to many track days in late March/early April where it’s 0C in the AM and everyone is on summer tires running lap times equal to or better (colder more dense air = more power) than some summer days.

Happy motoring, I'll figure out by trial and error how to keep the suspension from hopping.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by baron95

Been to many track days in late March/early April where it’s 0C in the AM and everyone is on summer tires running lap times equal to or better (colder more dense air = more power) than some summer days.

It depends on the summer tyre, the ones I use for track days need to be between 71C (160F) and 104C (220F) to have full grip, they are noticeably “greasy” below that temperature and don’t have any more grip than a non-summer tyre below 50C (122F) tyre temp.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by aerobod

It depends on the summer tyre, the ones I use for track days need to be between 71C (160F) and 104C (220F) to have full grip, they are noticeably “greasy” below that temperature and don’t have any more grip than a non-summer tyre below 50C (122F) tyre temp.

It doesn’t matter which summer tire. It will still have much better grip than the best winter tire in the dry.

Point is if you don’t drive on frozen precipitation or very cold rain days, a summer tire, once warmed a bit, has more grip.

I’ll guarantee that most people here driving M2 in the winter are driving them on clear roads 99% of the time.

[myaghi]

In the last few month I made some braking test with my M2 between summer tires and winter tires in different conditions. The street is always the same, so the tarmac does not intervene in the result. I had some discusions with some friends regarding the need for winter tires and so I decided to do this test, carried with Dragy with the braking measure from 100 to 0. I always go for 3 brakes, with about 40 seconds of driving between them

Summer tire: Michelin Pilot Sport 4s* (that came with the car, about 3000 km in them)
- 25 celsius outside dry, tires about 45 celsius - 36.5m best
- 4 celsius outside dry, tires about 10 celsius - 41.5m best (can't get the tires over 10-12 celsius in this temperature, in town, even driving hard)
- 7 celsius outside and raining hard, tires about 7 celsius - 57.2m best

Winter tires: Michelin Pilot Alpin 5*, about 2000km on them
- 7 celsius outside dry, tires about 12 celsius - 40.1m best
- 1 celsius outside and raining hard, tires about 7 celsius - 47.1m best

So who said that summer tires have better dry grip in winter, doesn't know what he is talking about. Sure, if I go for a track day in winter in dry, I would put summer tires because you can put temperature in them on the track, but on the street you can't do that.

I stand with my belief which I observed on my M2 and my friend M4C Xdrive, they behave exactly the same regarding the wheel hop. Neither had any wheel hop in the summer when we receive the cars and the grip was maximum

[baron95]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Are you speaking from experience?

Saying that is a bold statement and an incorrect one at that, is all I can say.

Experience and also reading comprehensive tire test data from Tyre Reviews, Tire Rack, mannufacturer data, etc.

I'm not trying to talk people out of winter tires. I use them. If you need to drive in frozen precipitation, nothing can beat winter tires, and they are the safest tires in those conditions. But when the roads are dry and clean, and you want max grip for tracking or spirited driving winter tires become a handicap.

Don't want to derail this thread, further. I just wanted to correct some statement on this thread that wheel hop "has been eliminated".

Happy motoring.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by baron95

Experience and also reading comprehensive tire test data from Tyre Reviews, Tire Rack, mannufacturer data, etc.

I'm not trying to talk people out of winter tires. I use them. If you need to drive in frozen precipitation, nothing can beat winter tires, and they are the safest tires in those conditions. But when the roads are dry and clean, and you want max grip for tracking or spirited driving winter tires become a handicap.

Don't want to derail this thread, further. I just wanted to correct some statement on this thread that wheel hop "has been eliminated".

Happy motoring.

I remember seeing that Tyre Reviews video where he tested in the dry winter, all-season, summer tires (think they were MPS4S), etc. and was surprised that the summer tires had more grip even in low temps. IIRC his tiered testing only went down to 0°C/ 32°F which at that temperature all the tires were pretty much even in braking distance.

My takeaway was in all temps just before reaching 0°C/32°F and most critically in the dry, the summers tires had more grip. But once temps reach 0°C/32°F the summers start to lose their grip advantage and obviously as the temps drop further the other tires have the upper hand.

One thing that wasn't captured in the testing is in real world and depending on your local area there might be a lot of salt on the roads which further decreases a summer tires ability to grip the pavement. This is why I use sport winter tires; I want the safety a winter tire provides in the wet and/or snow but also offers a bit of sportiness to hold me over until spring arrives. If however, you only take your car out on warmer days with dry clean roads I see no reason not to run summers, YMMV.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Tag

I remember seeing that Tyre Reviews video where he tested in the dry winter, all-season, summer tires (think they were MPS4S), etc. and was surprised that the summer tires had more grip even in low temps. IIRC his tiered testing only went down to 0°C/ 32°F which at that temperature all the tires were pretty much even in braking distance.

My takeaway was in all temps just before reaching 0°C/32°F and most critically in the dry, the summers tires had more grip. But once temps reach 0°C/32°F the summers start to lose their grip advantage and obviously as the temps drop further the other tires have the upper hand.

One thing that wasn't captured in the testing is in real world and depending on your local area there might be a lot of salt on the roads which further decreases a summer tires ability to grip the pavement. This is why I use sport winter tires; I want the safety a winter tire provides in the wet and/or snow but also offers a bit of sportiness to hold me over until spring arrives. If however, you only take your car out on warmer days with dry clean roads I see no reason not to run summers, YMMV.

The other factor for tyre temp is if the surface has any water on it or not. With the AR-1 tyres I run on track, maintaining a minimum 70C tread temperature on a wet surface is difficult even at over 20C ambient temp, as the tyres cool quickly if the driving line has any surface water.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by aerobod

The other factor for tyre temp is if the surface has any water on it or not. With the AR-1 tyres I run on track, maintaining a minimum 70C tread temperature on a wet surface is difficult even at over 20C ambient temp, as the tyres cool quickly if the driving line has any surface water.

That's why I specifically said in the dry. When it comes to driving in the wet or snow the summers don't even come close and are outright dangerous.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Tag

That's why I specifically said in the dry. When it comes to driving in the wet or snow the summers don't even come close and are outright dangerous.

There are a few summer tyres that can actually have better wet grip than all-seasons at summer ambient temps, but in general, I agree. Cold and wet you can notice the rapid fall off of the MP4S tyre grip compared with appropriate winter tyres.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by aerobod

There are a few summer tyres that can actually have better wet grip than all-seasons at summer ambient temps, but in general, I agree.

In higher temps, yes. But the discussion we're having is using summers in winter where temps are 7°C/45°F or lower.

[Tag]

Found the video that both baron95 and I are referencing. It's really well done and worth watching in its entirety.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Tag

Found the video that both baron95 and I are referencing. It's really well done and worth watching in its entirety.

Pity they don't go down to proper winter temps, the average daily high temp is below 0C for Jan & Feb here, with average low temps below -10C, although the temp extremes in winter are in the range from -40C to +20C.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by aerobod

Pity they don't go down to proper winter temps, the average daily high temp is below 0C for Jan & Feb here, with average low temps below -10C, although the temp extremes in winter are in the range from -40C to +20C.

Would have been nice but he was under a time constraint. He did the testing over two days at the facility. Even though we don't have anything under 0°C/32°F it still gives you a really good idea of how differently the tires perform compared to each other.

Note: If anyone doesn't want to watch the entire video you can just watch the recap at the 10m mark.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by baron95

It doesn’t matter which summer tire. It will still have much better grip than the vest winter tire in the dry.

Point is if you don’t drive on frozen precipitation or very cold rain days, a summer tire, once warmed a bit, has more grip.

I’ll guarantee that most people here driving M2 in the winter are driving them on clear roads 99% of the time.

At -10C ambient on the M2, the MP4S tyre temps in normal dry clear road use don't get more than a couple of degrees above 0C, they have a lot less grip than Sottozero 3 tyres at that temp.

[MineralGreyMetallic]

Originally Posted by Tag

Found the video that both baron95 and I are referencing. It's really well done and worth watching in its entirety.

Very useful video, thanks!

I think the way I'll digest this data since I'm on summer tires all year round and can experience a wide range of temps in a single day

Wet
- crap grip at <= 40*F
- significantly reduced grip 40-59*F
- acceptable and increasing grip at 59*F+

Dry
- Doesn't really seem to matter at 0*F+

Now, this is just braking performance.

I'd be really curious to know if the performance is consistent with other scenarios, like cornering. I don't know enough about this stuff to make an assumption here.

[baron95]

"Pity they don't go down to proper winter temps, the average daily high temp is below 0C for Jan & Feb here, with average low temps below -10C, although the temp extremes in winter are in the range from -40C to +20C."

I think that data point is irrelevant. Those who live in locations (e.g. most of Canada, Northern Europe) where temperatures are consistently that cold, already have a mandate for winter tires to drive legally. It is not even debatable that you need winter tires at those temps.

The only gray area is if you have a (typically fun/sports) car, that you don't need to drive when there is frozen precip, and you live in an area where winter is in that 0-10C range. That is where people can get away with a all-season tire or even a summer tire if you pick only the warmer clear days to drive.

I personally wanted to get OEM size winter tires (I already have 2 sets of wheels), but, to my surprise there are ZERO OEM-size winter tires available in North America - insane. Some owners are resorting to buying $4,500 BMW winter set up. I'm going to tough it out this winter (still in break in period) and get a proper set after I wast the MP4S on track in the spring.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by aerobod

At -10C ambient on the M2, the MP4S tyre temps in normal dry clear road use don't get more than a couple of degrees above 0C, they have a lot less grip than Sottozero 3 tyres at that temp.

Couldn't tell you. I don't drive on summer tires at those temps. But I can tell you that driving on the road I get them to 20C easily when it is 0C outside.

[baron95]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Winter tires are only mandated in Quebec. Canada doesn’t mandate winter tires.

Again, you’re saying things that are relevant are irrelevant, and shunning evidence without first hand experience. Why?

Sorry. Didn’t want to come across as dismissive of those points. I was simply agreeing that if you live in a place that gets supper cold and will drive the car when it is that cold, then winter tires are a must.

I personally don’t have much use for data on how bad a summer tire is at -40C.

It’s like I’m interested in data on how people drive after having 2 or 3 drinks, but I have no interest in data on how people drive after having 15 drinks in one evening.

[Basketcase]

Can we get back to the new MY2025 M2 info? Not bicker and bitch about winter tires and/or summer tires and what temperatures people drive at?

Every time there is an update on this thread I get excited to read new info - because I plan to order a '25 when they get released, only to click on the link and read the irrelevant argument about tires is still going on

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I’m waiting for the São Paulo yellow to drop. This might be a colour I find can replace TR in a couple of years, since the design is fitting to striking and vibrant colours. Although TR is awesome.

I see a lot of SP Yellow M3s down here that I wouldn't want the M2 that color. I think the Java Green might look awesome with the cf roof, a cf spoiler and maybe another bit or two of cf...and of course, the right color/patterned rims. Yes, I knowbJG is definitely not for everyone.

[Basketcase]

Originally Posted by M2siast

I’m waiting for the São Paulo yellow to drop. This might be a colour I find can replace TR in a couple of years, since the design is fitting to striking and vibrant colours. Although TR is awesome.

I agree! SPY and Voodoo Blue are what I'm waiting for. The VB is what I was hoping the ZB would be... a cool colour, just missed the mark a bit for me compared to VB.