[IllSic_Design]

Oh man I may actually finally own an M car if this M2 comes out as you guys(Scott26, Artemis, Lementier) are saying it will be/look like.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Width: yeah, E82 'bulldog stance' of a decade ago 'Reloaded'.

[IMG]https://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/at...8;d=1614281858[/IMG]

[IMG]https://bimmerpost.imgix.net/goodies...%20M2%2013.jpg[/IMG]

Attachment 2565691

Good selection of images. Still a ways off before the mules out in public have production body panels on them (they're still in the cut and splice stage).

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by W///

Any ideas if this will be the last available M car available with a manual transmission?

Logic says yes, gut says no.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by lemetier

Logic says yes, gut says no.

The past:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Preuninger in a TopGear interview in April 2010 about the PDK gearbox:
"Grandmas can use paddles. They aren’t challenging." (yup, his words)
(source: https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/...dr/road-test-0)

Preuninger with Chris Harris in 2015 (Cayman GT4 test):

Spring 2017:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Expectations for the new 911 GT3 6MT:

"It also gave chance to revisit discussion of the manual option with Andreas Preuninger. I start, cheekily, by reminding him that at the launch of the previous GT3 the PDK-only decision was pitched as a big improvement, largely on the basis of its faster lap times. "Well it is still faster on track," Preuninger says, "but lap times aren't everything, are they?" Preuninger stresses his ambition has always been to offer transmission choice - "like whether you take the ceramic brakes" - but limited development resources restricted what was possible. But he admits the PDK-only GT3 displeased some traditional buyers, with the huge popularity of the manual-only Cayman GT4 - and an increase in engineering resources - making the case. This was initially used in the 911 R, but the plan was always to spread the costs by offering it in the GT3 as well. Preuninger says he doesn't know how many people will opt for the manual - a zero-cost option tick in most territories - but reckons it could be as high as a third of production. "If it's less than 20 per cent then I'm in trouble," he admits."
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...l-review/36190

2021:
See here ("The Porsche 911 GT3 attracts American manual buyers - It more than doubles the global take rate here").

The future:
Porsche's expectation about the 992 GT3 sporting a manual transmission: see here:

"Porsche GT Division boss Andreas Preuninger predicts some 40% of new 911 GT3 buyers will specify the manual ’box, but head of motorsport Frank-Steffen Walliser hinted it could be even more. “We lost several bottles of wine by betting on the take rate when we reintroduced the manual option. We were surprised by how high it was,” he said."

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Artemis

The past:

Spring 2017:

2021:
See here ("The Porsche 911 GT3 attracts American manual buyers - It more than doubles the global take rate here").

The future:
Porsche's expectation about the 992 GT3 sporting a manual transmission: see here:

"Porsche GT Division boss Andreas Preuninger predicts some 40% of new 911 GT3 buyers will specify the manual ’box, but head of motorsport Frank-Steffen Walliser hinted it could be even more. “We lost several bottles of wine by betting on the take rate when we reintroduced the manual option. We were surprised by how high it was,” he said."

Not really comparable. There's an additional factor that isn't mentioned en masse that will kill off the mainstream MT. New Vehicle Acquisition Method, or Lease vs. Purchase.

[Artemis]

Another aspect regarding widened width: production facility limitations.

It has been already reported over here that the USA-spec G87 M2 ('xxx3' = USA-spec LHD) will be built at the state-of-the-art plant of BMW San Luis Potosí in Mexico (see here and here).

For building the EUR-spec G87 M2 ('xxx1' = EUR-spec LHD | 'xxx2' = EUR-spec RHD) I guess that a 'collision check' will have been performed again at the BMW Leipzig plant, this time using a G42 2er prototype. See picture below: March 2014 'collision check' during development of the F87 M2, using an F22 M235i: "can it safely pass through the production facility ?":

Originally Posted by Artemis

Keep in mind that the infrastructure at the Leipzig factory also plays a key role: prior to building the M2, a 'collision check' through the production facilities was performed (see the picture below: "Störkantendurchlauf" = interfering edges run-through - source: this video (11:21-11:40)).
If an M2 variant fails that test (too wide), it's either back to the drawing board or build the car (partially) elsewhere, or work with 'add-on' body parts. I cannot see BMW restructuring the Leipzig production facility merely for building an M2 variant.
Conclusion: M2 variant fenders can only become as wide as the "Störkantendurchlauf" test allows. Likely there's still some margin compared to the current M2, but it might be getting tight.

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Another aspect regarding widened width: production facility limitations.

It has been already reported over here that the USA-spec G87 M2 ('xxx3' = USA-spec LHD) will be built at the state-of-the-art plant of BMW San Luis Potosí in Mexico (see here and here).

For building the EUR-spec G87 M2 ('xxx1' = EUR-spec LHD | 'xxx2' = EUR-spec RHD) very likely a new 'collision check' will have been performed again at the BMW Leipzig plant (see picture below: March 2014 'collision check' during development of the F87 M2, using an F22 2er: "can it pass everywhere ?"):

100% sure it's going to roll off the line at Leipzig?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by lemetier

100% sure it's going to roll off the line at Leipzig?

No, not seen confirmation yet of production at the Leipzig plant.

But, also for geographical reasons, it would make sense to produce the USA-spec G42 2er and G87 M2 in Mexico and the EUR-spec G42 2er and G87 M2 in Germany (compare with the G20 3er production: several plants worldwide including Mexico and Germany). Transatlantic transport delays for deliveries to European 'home market' customers: IMHO unlikely.

Clear indication of preparing G42 and G87 production in Mexico (dedicated thread: here):

[lemetier]

Originally Posted by Artemis

No, not seen confirmation yet of production at the Leipzig plant.

But, also for geographical reasons, it would make sense to produce the USA-spec G42 2er and G87 M2 in Mexico and the EUR-spec G42 2er and G87 M2 in Germany (compare with the G20 3er production: several plants worldwide including Mexico and Germany). Transatlantic transport delays for deliveries to European 'home market' customers: IMHO unlikely.

Clear indication of preparing G42 and G87 production in Mexico (dedicated thread: here):

I'd imagine Graz is more likely. Magna is the contract manufacturer for G42/G82 BiW after all.

[NickyC]

I have very high hopes for this car. My G8x fund has officially been rolled over into this model as there’s nothing else which interests me. Can’t wait to see the final version. I just hope they offer better colors than the boring colors on the prior model. Individual paint options would be awesome.

[Game]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I have very high hopes for this car. My G8x fund has officially been rolled over into this model as there’s nothing else which interests me. Can’t wait to see the final version. I just hope they offer better colors than the boring colors on the prior model. Individual paint options would be awesome.

With the popularity of the vibrant colors of the G80, I think they'd be stupid not to.

[n55f15]

Wonder if there’ll be any elements of the 2002 hommage in the design

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by NickyC

I have very high hopes for this car. My G8x fund has officially been rolled over into this model as there’s nothing else which interests me. Can’t wait to see the final version. I just hope they offer better colors than the boring colors on the prior model. Individual paint options would be awesome.

Originally Posted by Game

With the popularity of the vibrant colors of the G80, I think they'd be stupid not to.

With Valencia Orange Metallic the car moves, even when parked.

[Sublime00]

Originally Posted by W///

Any ideas if this will be the last available M car available with a manual transmission?

Why would this be the last M car with a manual?

I think BMW will keep making a manual M car as long if there's a market for one. As long as the net emissions by the manufacturer meet whatever standard is set by the country they're selling in, which if hypothetically 80% of the model range is electric, would be plenty of ICE manual cars that BMW could build.

Isn't the M2 almost 50/50 take rate between manual and DCT? Why lose out on that market share?

[W///]

Originally Posted by Sublime00

Why would this be the last M car with a manual?

I think BMW will keep making a manual M car as long if there's a market for one. As long as the net emissions by the manufacturer meet whatever standard is set by the country they're selling in, which if hypothetically 80% of the model range is electric, would be plenty of ICE manual cars that BMW could build.

Isn't the M2 almost 50/50 take rate between manual and DCT? Why lose out on that market share?

That market you speak of is a drop in the bucket compared to the more mainstream cars BMW sell so I'm nowhere as confident as you are that they will keep making it available past the G87 LCI (EOP 2029 I believe? ).

While the take rate is quite high in the US for manual M's which is wonderful, I can also point out that the new M3/4 are not available with a manual in some pretty big markets such as the UK and China.

We've already seen AMG announcing they're going with PHEVs imminently, I have a hard time believing that in almost 10 years, the M2/3/4 will not follow same path. At that point, would they develop an iteration of the S58 with a manual that's a PHEV at the same time? Or maybe make the Comp PHEV and base regular ICE?

Maybe I'm being a little pessimistic, but I think the time for the type of cars I grew up loving is coming to an end. Hope to be proven wrong.

[Sublime00]

Originally Posted by W///

That market you speak of is a drop in the bucket compared to the more mainstream cars BMW sell so I'm nowhere as confident as you are that they will keep making it available past the G87 LCI (EOP 2029 I believe? ).

While the take rate is quite high in the US for manual M's which is wonderful, I can also point out that the new M3/4 are not available with a manual in some pretty big markets such as the UK and China.

We've already seen AMG announcing they're going with PHEVs imminently, I have a hard time believing that in almost 10 years, the M2/3/4 will not follow same path. At that point, would they develop an iteration of the S58 with a manual that's a PHEV at the same time? Or maybe make the Comp PHEV and base regular ICE?

Maybe I'm being a little pessimistic, but I think the time for the type of cars I grew up loving is coming to an end. Hope to be proven wrong.

I think there will be a buttload of tech crammed into these cars, so yeah in that sense cars won't be like the cars you/we may have grown up with, they'll be infinitely more complicated, but I don't see BMW not offering at least one manual sports car option for drivers.

I'll be the optimist.

[mslam02]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I have not seen G87 in person yet. The standard 2er G42 uses this
Three Car mix in its structure. I have learned this is expensive to complete but are doing it in regards to the goodwill brought by the M2. ( See they can be nice)
Had they not then the whole 2er Would have been driven by its front wheels.
One quote I have heard is that it's a Z4 Coupe.

What do you think then, the chances of seeing an LCI Z4 manual, or Z4M car since its on the same CLAR platform?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by mslam02

What do you think then, the chances of seeing an LCI Z4 manual, or Z4M car since its on the same CLAR platform?

Probably 0 because the Z4 (predictably) sold like -5 units .

People don't want a tourer from BMW. It should have driven like the Supra and been available with a manual and it would have done better. Still, it's a dying segment and they would never beat Porsche anyway.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by mslam02

What do you think then, the chances of seeing an LCI Z4 manual, or Z4M car since its on the same CLAR platform?

Zero.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by mslam02

What do you think then, the chances of seeing an LCI Z4 manual, or Z4M car since its on the same CLAR platform?

Originally Posted by chris719

Probably 0 because the Z4 (predictably) sold like -5 units .

People don't want a tourer from BMW. It should have driven like the Supra and been available with a manual and it would have done better. Still, it's a dying segment and they would never beat Porsche anyway.

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

Zero.

A slightly detuned S58 (a la G87 M2 variant) with a 6MT in a Supra though...there's a beast! Sadly, that's too obvious for BMW to green light.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by F8SEVEN

A slightly detuned S58 (a la G87 M2 variant) with a 6MT in a Supra though...there's a beast! Sadly, that's too obvious for BMW to green light.

A 718 Spyder fighter...

Too niche for the current guys wielding the big stick I guess

Spending on EVs and Hybrids are what’s keeping them in the job

[BMWGirlFL]

Unlike Current Model, 2023 BMW M2 to Get 50:50 Weight Distribution
Whether you’re on the fence about the huge nostrils of the latest BMW M3 and M4 or not, there is no denying that their performance is the highest as it has ever been.
Even without the addition of the M xDrive all-wheel-drive system, which is not yet available for Competition models, the two sports cars are way faster than their predecessors while also offering a high level of driver involvement thanks to the perfect 50:50 weight distribution and the availability of a manual transmission.
The M2, on the other hand, has always been the sweetheart of M purists, who always saw it as a 2002 Turbo revival in almost every sense, especially when compared to its more bloated big brothers.
BMW knows this, which is why the 2023 BMW M2 is likely to become the most M car of the third millennium, and probably the last old-school BMW before the rise of the electrics.
Unlike the recently out of production M2 Competition, which has a 53:47 weight distribution on the front and rear axle, its replacement will get a perfect 50:50 one thanks to a host of modifications.
This is apparently one of the reasons why pre-production models of the model have been caught testing in the real world as early as 2020, over two years before the car is supposed to go on sale.
In theory, the new M2 should be easy to develop since it’s based on a shortened platform used by the current M4, and it will even sport a detuned version of the same powertrain, but the perfect weight distribution is harder to replicate in a much shorter vehicle.
Rumors are saying that the CS-only CFRP roof will be standard on the M2, alongside other more subtle mods to bring the front end weight down.
Speaking of powertrain, the model will use the same 3.0-liter twin-turbocharged inline-six, codenamed S58B30T0 in the current BMW M3, M4 and soon to be facelifted X3 M and X4 M.
With around 420 horsepower and 550 Nm (406 lb-ft) of torque at its disposal, sent to the rear wheels via either a six-speed manual or an 8-speed automatic transmission, the 2023 M2 will simply improve the recipe used by its predecessor in this department.
Future M2 CS and Competition versions are expected to get around 20 horsepower more, and there are even rumors of an M2 CSL, following in the footsteps of the upcoming M4 CSL.

More pics:
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/u...on-159858.html