[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

My E90 328i, F80 335i and F87C M2C - all German built and were solid. Especially the M2C, not even a single rattle, no issues.

My G05 X5 40i, custom built with air suspension and with all bells and whistles, made in America came with a bent control arm, and has creaks everywhere. I don't want the dealer to open my dashboard so I'm living with the noises but I did get the bent suspension components fixed. It was never driven being custom built and only had 3-4 miles when I purchased it. It also had the fender trim twisted (the plastic piece on top of the wheel arch) and that was fixed under warranty too.

Like I said you can argue both ways.

But it's a BMW, and I would *prefer* that it is sealed with a "Made in Germany" tag. Not saying that I won't buy "Made in Mexico" built BMWs. I do own a X5 which is non-German built.

There is no such thing as an "F80 335i" or even "F87C". F8x is the platform, there is no "C". 335i/M2C are models. I assume you've had the F30 335i.
I also had the 2015 or 2016 335i and was super solid and I actually enjoyed it more than my M340i (G20)

As mentioned above, the SLP factory is very automated, everything is built to standards with acceptable margins across all BMW factories. on average, There is no quality difference between BMW vehicles built in Germany vs. Mexico. You can get unlucky with either that still meets the standard.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by DFW_M2C

There is no such thing as an "F80 335i" or even "F87C". F8x is the platform, there is no "C". 335i/M2C are models. I assume you've had the F30 335i.
I also had the 2015 or 2016 335i and was super solid and I actually enjoyed it more than my M340i (G20)

As mentioned above, the SLP factory is very automated, everything is built to standards with acceptable margins across all BMW factories. on average, There is no quality difference between BMW vehicles built in Germany vs. Mexico. You can get unlucky with either that still meets the standard.

Agree. If people take emotion out of the thought process, it's going to be really hard to find any meaningful difference.

Would I want to have the first car that rolled off the line? Probably not, but SLP has been producing in volume for a while now. I think the engines are still made in Germany also and shipped to North America. At least, that's what was true for S54 and my Z4M from Spartanburg.

[buckybadger]

Originally Posted by chris719

Agree. If people take emotion out of the thought process, it's going to be really hard to find any meaningful difference.

Would I want to have the first car that rolled off the line? Probably not, but SLP has been producing in volume for a while now. I think the engines are still made in Germany also and shipped to North America. At least, that's what was true for S54 and my Z4M from Spartanburg.

I guess you guys are repeating the same thing that I just said that you can argue both ways.

All I'm saying is I prefer German built. But you can get lucky or unlucky wherever the car came from.

[MooMooM2]

Do we know if there has been many complaints on the m240 so far?

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by buckybadger

I guess you guys are repeating the same thing that I just said that you can argue both ways.

All I'm saying is I prefer German built. But you can get lucky or unlucky wherever the car came from.

I don’t see why this is surprising .

I’m with you - if I’m buying a German car, I want it built in Germany. Call it principle, tradition or snobbery, I don’t really care.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Rk-d

I don’t see why this is surprising .

I’m with you - if I’m buying a German car, I want it built in Germany. Call it principle, tradition or snobbery, I don’t really care.

Snobbery yes. Principle, not sure what is it based on. Tradition - BMW and other manufacturers (including Porsche, Merc, etc) all build quality cars all over the world for a long time.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by DFW_M2C

Snobbery yes. Principle, not sure what is it based on. Tradition - BMW and other manufacturers (including Porsche, Merc, etc) all build quality cars all over the world for a long time.

Meh

My money, my prerogative.

[ASAP]

Do remember that even the German assembled cars use parts from all over the world. A lot of the light components come from Hungary... and numerous engine parts come from Ukraine / Eastern Europe...

I would say outside of ownership structure and location of headquarters... very few companies are actually doing anything in the country of their nationality. Look at Apple... outside of the design and marketing... nothing really happens in the USA. All manufacturing is in China and even for tax purposes they are setup in Ireland.

Almost every Japanese manufacturer has now setup shop in the USA and all X series cars have been built in the USA since the beginning.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Do remember that even the German assembled cars use parts from all over the world. A lot of the light components come from Hungary... and numerous engine parts come from Ukraine / Eastern Europe...

I would say outside of ownership structure and location of headquarters... very few companies are actually doing anything in the country of their nationality. Look at Apple... outside of the design and marketing... nothing really happens in the USA. All manufacturing is in China and even for tax purposes they are setup in Ireland.

Almost every Japanese manufacturer has now setup shop in the USA and all X series cars have been built in the USA since the beginning.

While true, I see a good amount of "made in Germany" when I'm poking around the car and that makes me happy

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by DFW_M2C

Snobbery yes. Principle, not sure what is it based on.

JFC dude, just agree to disagree and move on. Nobody is winning this pissing match - it's a difference of opinion. Leave it at that.

[Oliv]

Been done a thousand times already, but it's the same thinking that the one behind swiss watches, if you're into that.

Would you buy a Rolex/Omega etc for 5/10k + if it was made in Thailand ? No, you're buying experienced craftsmen/a bit of history for this price...

Germany has a huge history of making damn fine high-end cars for a century now, Mexico...they built the Beetle ?

[NathObeaN]

I don't know guys. I want to like it, but it's just not getting me fired up like the last one. The only thing that interests me is a solid S58 engine with no fear of SCH.

When the F87 was being teased, spy shots being released etc. I was drooling over every bit of info. Same even for the comp revision. Every bit of news excited me. With this one, it just seems to be 'lacking' and I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's just me, but so far I'm not very excited for it. Maybe by the time the CS comes around it will be different.

[Rk-d]

Originally Posted by NathObeaN

I don't know guys. I want to like it, but it's just not getting me fired up like the last one. The only thing that interests me is a solid S58 engine with no fear of SCH.

When the F87 was being teased, spy shots being released etc. I was drooling over every bit of info. Same even for the comp revision. Every bit of news excited me. With this one, it just seems to be 'lacking' and I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's just me, but so far I'm not very excited for it. Maybe by the time the CS comes around it will be different.

Probably because we've been down this road before.

Great but charmingly flawed car is replaced by newer versions that are heavier and bigger and uglier, but objectively "superior" with better performance metrics. And yet they remain big, ugly cars that lack the spirit and charisma of the older car.


Not saying that's what will happen here, but I think that's part of the skepticism. It is for me.

[VIERsr]

Today, the factory is just a place where all components are collected and assembled by machines (many) and humans (fewer and fewer), the cars are still designed in Germany by an international teams (maybe even with Mexican guys, who knows), the components come from all over the world and the build processes have to meet Bmw's standards, not Mexican standards. Just like Audi, Mercedes and Porsche build >100k euros cars in Hungary and Slovakia and they are as good as those made in Germany, or like iPhones designed by Apple in California and assembled in China.
Since the cars are still designed at the Bavarian headquarters, I wonder what the difference is if they are assembled in Mexico or anywhere else, but probably as a European I can't understand.

Originally Posted by Oliv

Been done a thousand times already, but it's the same thinking that the one behind swiss watches, if you're into that.

Would you buy a Rolex/Omega etc for 5/10k + if it was made in Thailand ? No, you're buying experienced craftsmen/a bit of history for this price...

Germany has a huge history of making damn fine high-end cars for a century now, Mexico...they built the Beetle ?

Well, we're not talking about hand made manufacture, BMWs are globalized objects like smartphones, clothes and so on, not niche objects like Ferraris or Rolex, for example, many components of our BMWs already come from outside Germany and we have never bothered with them.
I wouldn't get a Ferrari or a Rolex built in Thailand because they are handmade pieces that don't follow industrialized processes, but that's not the case with a Bmw.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by VIERsr

Today, the factory is just a place where all components are collected and assembled by machines (many) and humans (fewer and fewer), the cars are still designed in Germany by an international teams (maybe even with Mexican guys, who knows), the components come from all over the world and the build processes have to meet Bmw's standards, not Mexican standards. Just like Audi, Mercedes and Porsche build >100k euros cars in Hungary and Slovakia and they are as good as those made in Germany, or like iPhones designed by Apple in California and assembled in China.
Since the cars are still designed at the Bavarian headquarters, I wonder what the difference is if they are assembled in Mexico or anywhere else, but probably as a European I can't understand.

Well, we're not talking about hand made manufacture, BMWs are globalized objects like smartphones, clothes and so on, not niche objects like Ferraris or Rolex, for example, many components of our BMWs already come from outside Germany and we have never bothered with them.
I wouldn't get a Ferrari or a Rolex built in Thailand because they are handmade pieces that don't follow industrialized processes, but that's not the case with a Bmw.

To add - Rolexes are hand built and could not be built anywhere else without training new handcrafters in Switzerland which there already is a shortage of. Not a 1 for 1 comparison.

[DFW_M]

Originally Posted by Oliv

Been done a thousand times already, but it's the same thinking that the one behind swiss watches, if you're into that.

Would you buy a Rolex/Omega etc for 5/10k + if it was made in Thailand ? No, you're buying experienced craftsmen/a bit of history for this price...

Germany has a huge history of making damn fine high-end cars for a century now, Mexico...they built the Beetle ?

What a ridiculous comparison…
No, I would not buy a Rolex handmade by Thai craftsman.
However, I did buy the M340i made in MX and X3 made in USA.
And no, I would not get a Chevy if they paid me to take it.

[pz619]

Hi. Career in manufacturing here including project work (manufacturing workflow) with two OEMs. No one should be concerned with BMW building cars in Mexico. Cars outside of something like a Pagani aren't artisan products that require specialized disciplines to manufacture. As long as "standard work" is followed there shouldn't be a perceivable difference. BMW clearly made the investment. While I don't know this with certainty, my guess is manufacturing in Mexico really has very little to do with labor costs. The cost savings would materialize in logistical cost reduction.

Depending on the car anywhere from 20-40 different people will be assembling that car. Nearly all of which will only be working on a particular car for about 3-5 minutes before it's handed off to the next person/task. So unless you are really passionate about how the main wiring harness is put into the car, you don't really require a high end specialist to perform the task. That's not to say there isn't robust training, but this isn't a lifelong art form. Most of the stuff that REALLY matters to people are assembled by robot or mechanical assembly anyways. This includes the welding, paint, clear, and tolerance checks.

Keep in mind we're really talking assembly here for the most part. Things like seat stitching (or really the whole seat) is done by their supplier. BMW just installs the seat in the car. I know the perception can be that there are a bunch of master engineers in lab coats that are assembling the car, but this simply isn't true. That's not to say the assembly teams lack talent, but bear in mind this is a mass produced car. Country of assembly minimally applies to quality. Obviously lots of nuance and intangibles but none of these should factor into your decision to buy or not. I'm confident the product will be virtually indistinguishable from one made in Europe.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by pz619

Country of assembly minimally applies to quality. Obviously lots of nuance and intangibles but none of these should factor into your decision to buy or not. I'm confident the product will be virtually indistinguishable from one made in Europe.

I agree, assembling an automobile from one human to another with mostly modern-day robot rigs shouldn't make much of a difference but it sure would be nice if one's German heritage vehicle be made in made Germany..

And BMW did indeed build their factory in Mexico to save a buck on labor and taxes..

I mean, I too would prefer if my BMW is built outside of its motherland, it is at least assembled in the US but I also I don't want an M2 to end up costing a 100k because they have to keep up with US labor, environmental and OSHA laws - so a Mexican M2 it is!

However, I'm also not blind to the rhyme behind the reason..

.

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by allinon72

People who go from S55/DCT aren't going to like the S58/ZF8 combo, for a number of reasons. The ZF8 is a fantastic transmission if you've never experienced the DCT, but if you have you're ruined by those super car-fast gear changes and liveliness. The ZF feels like a really good normal transmission, but not at all special or engaging. The S58 has to be revved out to get the power going…a lot of people like that but if you're coming from an N55/S55, it will be a big adjustment. I suspect the G87 will have a detuned variant (but just as much weight) which will make this worse.

Agreed with this. Not looking forward to new M2. I said it before, but the only G87 M2 that will really matter is a G87 M2 CSL.

[thenwood]

im sure it will be a more accomplished car objectively. I cant shake the feeling that i would want to try one out to replace my M2C but i'm not pining after it.

I think the side view proportions are lovely, the new front language might be a bit abrasive, but then front end of the M2C is a very well executed design.
I imagine i will share an opinion i have with the Cayman, The resolve of the 981 rear end was sadly disrupted when the 718 came out. They just did such a good job of the first gen in that body, the next one always risked being fussy.

I work in car design and sometimes some very talented folks get it very right, the poor soul that has to come along and refresh it, has a hard job.

Someone whos buying their first M car will no doubt be full of smiles.

[M2C-NLUSA]

Originally Posted by chris719

The truth is that quality is designed into product (DFM) and guaranteed by process. Any manufacturing that relies on the skill of "unskilled" human labor is destined to be a failure. See - Tesla. There's a reason that a Tesla made anywhere will be an inconsistent disaster and a BMW produced anywhere will be pretty good. It's not that the people at Spartanburg are any better than Fremont.

Incorrect. There is absolutely a difference in labor/skill from Fremont to Spartanburg or Fremont to the Shanghai built cars. China built Tesla’s are numerically better statistically with paint/body defects then US built cars.

[M2C-NLUSA]

Originally Posted by thenwood

im sure it will be a more accomplished car objectively. I cant shake the feeling that i would want to try one out to replace my M2C but i'm not pining after it.

I think the side view proportions are lovely, the new front language might be a bit abrasive, but then front end of the M2C is a very well executed design.
I imagine i will share an opinion i have with the Cayman, The resolve of the 981 rear end was sadly disrupted when the 718 came out. They just did such a good job of the first gen in that body, the next one always risked being fussy.

I work in car design and sometimes some very talented folks get it very right, the poor soul that has to come along and refresh it, has a hard job.

Someone whos buying their first M car will no doubt be full of smiles.

I’m not certain from reading it but are you saying you prefer the 981 read more than the 718. 981 was and still is stunning but it looks older and less tight compared to a 718 parked next to it… especially in GT4 form.