[NewToM]

Originally Posted by akumachu

BMW makes about 1300 units (maybe even more now) of M2 per month.
It has been at least a year of production, so there are at least 15k M2 out on the road.
What percentage of incident should be consider as a design flaw?
Let's say we go with 10%, then there should be about 1500 cases of these world wide.
My bet is there are not as many as that.

I didn't even lower my car but I already scrap the bottom of the front a bit on a steep driveway. I blame myself rather how it was designed.
And I am sure the percentage of scrap incident is way higher than radiator puncture but no one would consider that as a design flaw.

Do you really feel that scraping your car on a steep driveway is equivalent of losing a radiator or engine failure because of oil loss?! While I’m not upset at the design, I have taken reasonable precautions to protect my car from this happening.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by akumachu

And I am sure the percentage of scrap incident is way higher than radiator puncture but no one would consider that as a design flaw.

Sorry, but that's a false equivalency. Scraping the underside of your bumper is not the same as a puncture in your oil cooler. Every car is prone to scraping but not ever car has this oil cooler design that can cause sudden loss of pressure resulting in your engine seizing up and totaling the car.

[DrewDDS]

Originally Posted by akumachu

BMW makes about 1300 units (maybe even more now) of M2 per month.
It has been at least a year of production, so there are at least 15k M2 out on the road.
What percentage of incident should be consider as a design flaw?
Let's say we go with 10%, then there should be about 1500 cases of these world wide.
My bet is there are not as many as that.

I didn't even lower my car but I already scrap the bottom of the front a bit on a steep driveway. I blame myself rather how it was designed.
And I am sure the percentage of scrap incident is way higher than radiator puncture but no one would consider that as a design flaw.

This comment is all-around completely worthless, thanks

[DrewDDS]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

They know their cooling design is inherently flawed and at risk of causing catastrophic failure like we've seen on this forum, but unless you're willing to litigate against BMW, nothing will change. These failures don't impact their bottom line and are sufficiently rare that they haven't garnered media or government attention. They only thing you can do is take precautions as an owner such as mesh covers and skid plates, if the road conditions where you drive are high risk. That's why I opted for the mishimoto skid plate.

I have been commenting on their social media everywhere, although I’m sure it will make no difference. I will look into the skid plate and probably end up doing one of the grilles. I’m kind of wishing I had gone with the csf radiator as it has a built in aluminum guard. But I worried about resale and warranty issues in the future.

Also to update the thread - I spoke with a BMW of NA representative who was very friendly but ultimately failed to get any coverage for the radiator. My insurance is covering it under comprehensive. Unfortunately I think my rates will go up, but that remains to be seen.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by DrewDDS

In my opinion it is a major oversight/design flaw. It’s like leaving out the air filter because it causes a restriction. “Why would we cover a problem caused by dust floating in the air?!”

It is an oversight. However, cost of protection vis a vis the cost of your car is peanuts. Many owners here have purchased that “insurance”.

Once in a while you have to bite the bullet.

IMO

[DrewDDS]

Originally Posted by M2siast

Why is an opinion different than yours worthless?

This type of thread always comes around, this isn’t anything new. Not sure we need a thread per car, but if we do, it’s a pretty low number (4 M2s so far).

Way more windshields. Accidents happen. Can’t block off the entire fascia of the car. Some rocks will still make their way through. My car has 16k km without any additional grille on the front. I put on the lower Mishimoto to prevent the oil cooler from getting hit by a big item on the highway (collision with a big object).

You felt entitled to use a ridiculous analogy with running an engine without air filter, but find it annoying when someone states a fact that the number of cars downed by flying rocks is minuscule.

Perhaps what you’re looking for is an outlet for empty complaints and crying. Let me tell you, this forum hasn’t been kind with people that just want to complain and have no resources. The last 2 I remember got so annoying and pissed off so many people that they eventually got banned.

So, got that Porsche yet?

I’m not trying to be a dick or start a fight. I made this post to bring attention to an issue that I’m sure will result in thousands of dollars in repairs for owners over the lifetime of these cars. I also made this post to see if anyone had been able to get this covered by BMW. I’m generally non-confrontational, but also unsure why anyone is defending a complete lack of radiator protection (maybe it’s standard in this segment, does that make it better?) Blocking the entire fascia isn’t necessary, maybe just keep the mesh like my f80 that I posted the pic of. It did fine in the several years I owned it.

If people don’t complain about this in a public place then nothing will ever be done about it. This forum represents only a fraction of what is happening in reality, so 4 M4’s is not accurate. Only BMW knows these numbers.

I said it was a worthless comment because it contains nothing but speculation and a comparison of scraping a bumper to a punctured radiator that has a $3300 repair bill (and could have been an engine failure). It’s not that I don’t like this person’s opinion, it’s just not helpful or contributing in any way, much like yours.

Anyway, sorry if my replies to others are offending you. I understand now that I’m left to my own devices to fix this. It’s fine and I’ve accepted it, and no I haven’t bought a Porsche yet in the 5 days since I made this post and my car has been in dealership custody.

[MineralGreyMetallic]

Let's not forget how pissed we'd be if this was happening to us.

Drew's being reasonable, given the circumstances.

I am amazed this happened, judging by the pictures alone. Thanks for posting about it. I think it helps raise awareness for us, as well.

Am I understanding that you just need to replace the radiator, and that the engine is not affected?

[two_three_two]

as people have said since page 1, it is a comprehensive claim between you and your insurer due to a road hazard. there was a series of high profile (on this podunk forum) incidents that seems to have taught 95% of the owner base that you NEED to take protection into your own hands. the design sucks, but many other cars have the issue, so don't expect a class action or a TB to save you.

also, FWIW, that was a pretty big rock. i do not tailgate EVER in this car, especially on the highway, and go super far out of my way to ensure i am clear of any airborne debris.

hopefully your fix is done soon (should have went to an indy) and you can move on with your life

[DrewDDS]

Originally Posted by MineralGreyMetallic

Let's not forget how pissed we'd be if this was happening to us.

Drew's being reasonable, given the circumstances.

I am amazed this happened, judging by the pictures alone. Thanks for posting about it. I think it helps raise awareness for us, as well.

Am I understanding that you just need to replace the radiator, and that the engine is not affected?

If I’m being unreasonable I’m sorry. I don’t want to be “that guy”. The engine is not affected, it’s only the radiator. Insurance has already paid out, and I’m picking the car up tomorrow. All is well. It’s still frustrating that BMW chose a thin plastic grid to protect the radiator. We all know well that the number crunchers would have demanded a better protector if BMW was on the hook for the repairs.

[akumachu]

Originally Posted by Tag

Sorry, but that's a false equivalency. Scraping the underside of your bumper is not the same as a puncture in your oil cooler. Every car is prone to scraping but not ever car has this oil cooler design that can cause sudden loss of pressure resulting in your engine seizing up and totaling the car.

I did not say equivalent in terms of damage and cost.
Design is about decision and trade off.
Just because something bad happens does not equate to a flaw.

I am just pointing out the trade off in cooling vs adding more cover.
Would you rather BMW put a full cover in front of the radiator and render it useless but it would be protected?

It is probably better to allow people add in cover rather than punching hole to allow more air in.

It is way easier to add in a grill but it is a lot harder sell to people to punch hole on your bumper to get more cooling.

[akumachu]

Originally Posted by DrewDDS

I’m not trying to be a dick or start a fight. I made this post to bring attention to an issue that I’m sure will result in thousands of dollars in repairs for owners over the lifetime of these cars. I also made this post to see if anyone had been able to get this covered by BMW. I’m generally non-confrontational, but also unsure why anyone is defending a complete lack of radiator protection (maybe it’s standard in this segment, does that make it better?) Blocking the entire fascia isn’t necessary, maybe just keep the mesh like my f80 that I posted the pic of. It did fine in the several years I owned it.

If people don’t complain about this in a public place then nothing will ever be done about it. This forum represents only a fraction of what is happening in reality, so 4 M4’s is not accurate. Only BMW knows these numbers.

I said it was a worthless comment because it contains nothing but speculation and a comparison of scraping a bumper to a punctured radiator that has a $3300 repair bill (and could have been an engine failure). It’s not that I don’t like this person’s opinion, it’s just not helpful or contributing in any way, much like yours.

Anyway, sorry if my replies to others are offending you. I understand now that I’m left to my own devices to fix this. It’s fine and I’ve accepted it, and no I haven’t bought a Porsche yet in the 5 days since I made this post and my car has been in dealership custody.

See above. I am trying to discussion what constitute a design flaw.
Sure I used a simpler and more common example but concept and logic being the same.
SUV designed to have high clearance verse sports car lower to have better center of gravity. Those are design decisions, they have pros and cons.
Just because the "cons" happened does not immediate means it is a flaw.
That was what I was trying to point out.

I didn't speculate what happen. I am just very interested in this particular topic on several threads.
Some thought that rocks could get suck up and puncture the bottom radiator, which I could not actually believe. But it was more likely it was curbing or running over tall objects.

Statistics and science are what I am after, not you in particular or insults.

[mtoo]

Why didn't BMW design nail-resistant tires, is that a design flaw that should be covered under warranty? How about not using impact-resistant glass and getting a cracked windshield?

Is this like a Ford Pinto with a gas tank that was prone to rupture or catching fire? How about a takata airbag what was prone to sending shrapnel upon deployment?

I agree that the situation sucks, and I feel bad for Drew or anyone else this happens to.

Design flaw, technically speaking, I guess. Or as akumachu points out, maybe just a tradeoff that BMW decided to make.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

also, FWIW, that was a pretty big rock.

That rock looks like its around the size of a golf ball or a little bit bigger - this was going to fuck up something on your car no matter what. I'd be thankful you weren't driving it far when it happened and ended up blowing an engine - there's a thread on here where that happened on the way HOME from picking the damn thing up!

Sure a Zunsport would have prevented it but if it hit your light or windshield and it broke would you be upset at BMW? light can be thousands and if you have the HUD that windshield is like $1,600 buckeroos. Now you know, get protection (lol) if you're going to stay in the with this gen M2. I've been avoiding getting the front one but this might push me over the edge. The guy who got got driving home from the dealer motivated me to go for some oil cooler protection...

I don't think it's like BMW doesn't know about this problem.. but as people said above it's got to be the minority of cases. There have got to be tens of thousands of this design on the roads from the last what, 4-6 years of G series cars?

I'd of course be upset if this happened to me but the longer I've had this car the more I'm learning you got to pay to play... otherwise stick with cheaper stuff like BRZs and WRXs or used stuff... but nothing's perfect, try talking to some people who have new 86's who's engines blew from a sweeping turn for too long!

[MADBMWX5MC]

Originally Posted by NewToM

I went full zunsport. Edited to add current look.

That looks great, OEM look for sure.

[JABCAT]

They obviously test these cars for hundreds of thousands of miles before they're released. The engineers and powers that be decided the risk of potential damage was less than needing more extensive protection.

The C8 Corvette has giant radiators up front with much larger opening & come with no guards whatsoever. People started putting aftermarket screens in & the Chief Engineer issued a statement that the aftermarket screens would cause cooling issues and potentially void the vehicle warranty...until GM licensed the aftermarket screens and started charging $900 for them as a dealer-installed option. Miraculously they no longer cause cooling issues nor void the warranty if you pay GM $900 for them.

Maybe BMW will see this "safety" opportunity and follow the same route as GM.

Until then buy some screens of your choice & stop complaining about a "design flaw" that doesn't exist.

[DrewDDS]

Originally Posted by clydefrog

That rock looks like its around the size of a golf ball or a little bit bigger - this was going to fuck up something on your car no matter what. I'd be thankful you weren't driving it far when it happened and ended up blowing an engine - there's a thread on here where that happened on the way HOME from picking the damn thing up!

Sure a Zunsport would have prevented it but if it hit your light or windshield and it broke would you be upset at BMW? light can be thousands and if you have the HUD that windshield is like $1,600 buckeroos. Now you know, get protection (lol) if you're going to stay in the with this gen M2. I've been avoiding getting the front one but this might push me over the edge. The guy who got got driving home from the dealer motivated me to go for some oil cooler protection...

I don't think it's like BMW doesn't know about this problem.. but as people said above it's got to be the minority of cases. There have got to be tens of thousands of this design on the roads from the last what, 4-6 years of G series cars?

I'd of course be upset if this happened to me but the longer I've had this car the more I'm learning you got to pay to play... otherwise stick with cheaper stuff like BRZs and WRXs or used stuff... but nothing's perfect, try talking to some people who have new 86's who's engines blew from a sweeping turn for too long!

I wouldn’t be upset with BMW if it were a light or a window. I’m upset mostly because the f80 that I traded in for this car would have been fine, but for some stupid reason they discontinued the mesh protector in the bumper. You guys aren’t understanding that I’m upset because a poor design choice cost me $3300. I don’t expect nail proof tires or crack resistant windshields or anything crazy! I’m a car enthusiast, I’ve been a career mechanic in the past, I’m not just some douche entitled rich boi. If anyone is curious what I’d be mad if bmw didn’t cover or what I expect from them - ask yourself this: did they have a protector over it in past cars, and did they remove it for the g87?

Also, the rock was a standard gravel size and very normal road debris that I think a car will encounter many times over ownership, maybe a grape or cherry nowhere near the size of a golf ball. If it were golf ball size I also wouldn’t be so upset.

Anyway, this thread has gone completely silly, so thanks to the people who understand where I’m coming from and the purpose of this post. And to everyone else, enjoy defending a multi billion corporation’s shitty design choice that will cost you thousands if you’re caught off guard thinking that it’s okay to just buy one of these and go out and daily drive it like any other car. Again if it were something that they had to pay to repair, they would have protected it. But they don’t care because the burden is stuck with their customers (likely some of the most enthusiastic ones)

I’m sure everyone will be happy to pay the increased rates once the insurance companies start to catch on

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

there is plenty of G8X threads with this same thing happening and to my knowledge not a single person has gotten a dealer or BMW corporate to take ownership. it is a known flaw in the design, and that is why most folks immediately cover all the exposed cooling. i think i did mine under 100 miles.

Plenty of other generations as well.

Did this to my F87 upon purchase...

[DrewDDS]

The oem mesh on your f87 would have stopped this rock, and I would have been paying for a new plastic mesh instead of a radiator

[akumachu]

Originally Posted by DrewDDS

I’m not trying to be a dick or start a fight. I made this post to bring attention to an issue that I’m sure will result in thousands of dollars in repairs for owners over the lifetime of these cars. I also made this post to see if anyone had been able to get this covered by BMW. I’m generally non-confrontational, but also unsure why anyone is defending a complete lack of radiator protection (maybe it’s standard in this segment, does that make it better?) Blocking the entire fascia isn’t necessary, maybe just keep the mesh like my f80 that I posted the pic of. It did fine in the several years I owned it.

If people don’t complain about this in a public place then nothing will ever be done about it. This forum represents only a fraction of what is happening in reality, so 4 M4’s is not accurate. Only BMW knows these numbers.

I said it was a worthless comment because it contains nothing but speculation and a comparison of scraping a bumper to a punctured radiator that has a $3300 repair bill (and could have been an engine failure). It’s not that I don’t like this person’s opinion, it’s just not helpful or contributing in any way, much like yours.

Anyway, sorry if my replies to others are offending you. I understand now that I’m left to my own devices to fix this. It’s fine and I’ve accepted it, and no I haven’t bought a Porsche yet in the 5 days since I made this post and my car has been in dealership custody.

I can't say I understand the pain and don't want any of that for sure. I
I do feel bad for this to happen to anyone.

My view point of this is entirely on whether there is actually a case to be made. If there science and statistics point to a mistake or a design flaw or manufacturing flaw, some lawyers can certainly take that up as a class action suit, and we would be all in better position.

The statistics part is hard to come by but physics is always present. I have bad memory and too lazy to go through all the cases in the forum. But from what I recall, rx-7-james first rock post was the side radiator, one was the bottom side damage, and then you have the center radiator.

The S58 engine for the G8X seemingly are using the same cooling setup, and my money is that it needs more cooling than the F87 engine that doesn't produce as much power.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by DrewDDS

I wouldn’t be upset with BMW if it were a light or a window. I’m upset mostly because the f80 that I traded in for this car would have been fine, but for some stupid reason they discontinued the mesh protector in the bumper. You guys aren’t understanding that I’m upset because a poor design choice cost me $3300. I don’t expect nail proof tires or crack resistant windshields or anything crazy! I’m a car enthusiast, I’ve been a career mechanic in the past, I’m not just some douche entitled rich boi. If anyone is curious what I’d be mad if bmw didn’t cover or what I expect from them - ask yourself this: did they have a protector over it in past cars, and did they remove it for the g87?

Also, the rock was a standard gravel size and very normal road debris that I think a car will encounter many times over ownership, maybe a grape or cherry nowhere near the size of a golf ball. If it were golf ball size I also wouldn’t be so upset.

Anyway, this thread has gone completely silly, so thanks to the people who understand where I’m coming from and the purpose of this post. And to everyone else, enjoy defending a multi billion corporation’s shitty design choice that will cost you thousands if you’re caught off guard thinking that it’s okay to just buy one of these and go out and daily drive it like any other car. Again if it were something that they had to pay to repair, they would have protected it. But they don’t care because the burden is stuck with their customers (likely some of the most enthusiastic ones)

I’m sure everyone will be happy to pay the increased rates once the insurance companies start to catch on

Just asking: as a car enthusiast, career mechanic, & having had an f80 with screens, you didn't look at the front of your g87 & think, hmm maybe I should put some screens here? Didn't read the forum about the $1,600 radiator & totaled new M2 from an oil cooler puncture & think, hmm maybe I should spend a few dollars and put some screens here?

I did, it was the first thing I purchased immediately after picking up my M2. You can blame BMW all you want, but there are plenty of options available from pre-made metal screens, plastic screens, to DIY mesh - all discussed on this forum.

*My wife's X3MC also has exposed radiators & an exposed oil cooler. First thing I did when we picked it up was install screens.
Waiting for an oil cooler screen as nobody makes one yet, or will DIY.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by DrewDDS

I wouldn’t be upset with BMW if it were a light or a window. I’m upset mostly because the f80 that I traded in for this car would have been fine...

Also, the rock was a standard gravel size and very normal road debris that I think a car will encounter many times over ownership, maybe a grape or cherry nowhere near the size of a golf ball. If it were golf ball size I also wouldn’t be so upset.

enjoy defending a multi billion corporation’s shitty design choice that will cost you thousands if you’re caught off guard thinking that it’s okay to just buy one of these and go out and daily drive it like any other car.

A little searching reveals this can happen to F generation M cars too. So maybe your F car would have still been fucked, especially if you're still saying it's a small piece of gravel (which it's not by the way, look at the photo, it's almost as long as the horizontal slat in the plastic mesh which is like 2 inches long.. that's a big rock dude..)

Again.. plenty of these styles of cars are on the road and even with our enthusiast forum of like 100+ cars we still have only 1 or 2 examples of this happening. The rest of us are wising up and protecting the damn thing.

I don't think we're providing excuses for BMW we're just accepting the reality of it. BMW is a business making business decisions, there are going to be compromises and this is just one of them. There are options to protect it if you care about it. There are plenty of exposed radiators on the road.

Let's also be honest here, how fast were you going? Hitting that rock at 65 MPH would have probably been OK maybe at higher speeds it's going to fuck shit up.... BMW can't account for every situation I bet these rads are fine for most daily driving at normal speeds.

[clydefrog]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Just asking: as a car enthusiast, career mechanic, & having had an f80 with screens, you didn't look at the front of your g87 & think, hmm maybe I should put some screens here? Didn't read the forum about the $1,600 radiator & totaled new M2 from an oil cooler puncture & think, hmm maybe I should spend a few dollars and put some screens here?

100% this.