[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by fangelov

My undestanding was that the carbon build up on the intake valves on the DI engines is from the oil from the PCV system. Not clear what the Techron will do. Maybe a catch can can mitigate it to a degree.

Regardless of what gets on the intake valves it can still be removed by Techron. Will treat the engine to a dose of Techron every so often.

If you install a catch can I think you'll be quite disappointed in the amount of stuff it catches. On other forums owners who installed catch can have reported just a smidgen of stuff in thousands of miles.

(Which is probably a good thing. If it was catching a lot of stuff it would need checking much more often than every oil change. Maybe as often as every fuel tank fill up or perhaps even more often. If the can gets too full the engine could ingest a slug of oil/water glop and this could damage the engine.)

Chances are more than a smidgen of stuff is passing through just not getting trapped. A check of the intake would probably find it messy with oil that is from the oil vapor hitting the intake wall.

Might mention my info is refiners put oil into the gasoline, less than an ounce per gallon. IIRC it is around 2/3rds of an ounce per gallon. (The oil is intended to provide protection against corrosion in any of the ferrous metal the oil comes into contact with.) But in 5K miles and say 25mpg average the engine has burned 200 gallons of gasoline and assuming just 1/2 ounce of oil per gallon 100 ounces of oil. That's close to a gallon of oil. Thus the engine gets exposed to far more oil via the gasoline it burns vs any that comes through the crankcase ventilation system.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by Carefree

Not here to rain on anybody’s parade. However, I was employed by a large oil company in both the petroleum and chemical divisions. The additives you read about are predominantly little more than expensive marketing campaigns. Yes, the majors have patented specific names for their additives/blends but take it from an insider, the 91 (or 93) gasolines you buy daily are more alike than different. YMMV (mileage-I made a funny)

I don't doubt that but just one major gasoline has Techron. I was using Shell V-Power in my two Porsche cars, a Boxster and a 996 Turbo. Then the Shell station raised its prices. Luckily there was a nearby Chevron station which appeared to in sync with the Shell station raising its prices lowered its prices. So I switched to Chevron.

After not even one tank the Boxster engine was running better most noticeably off idle. The Turbo engine did not react one way or the other to the switch to Chevron gasoline.

So while Chevron Supreme with Techron made a difference at least with the Boxster engine I note Shell touted it fuels had some nitrogen additive intended to act as some fuel system/engine deposit cleanser but which in my experience didn't do diddly squat.

I owned other cars after the Porsche cars. Scat Pack, Hellcat, MINI JCW; and I used in some cases discount gasoline but once in a while treated the car to a tank of Chevron. Not one time did I notice any improvement. But the cars were all new, much newer and with far fewer miles than the Turbo and even the Boxster (which at time had over 250K miles, while the Turbo around 140K miles). Unlike the Boxster but like the Turbo these car engines were fitted with wide band O2 sensors which support much more precise fueling than the narrow band O2 sensors the Boxster came with.

Oh, all cars got used the same way. As my 60 mile (mostly highway miles) a day work commute car.

Anyhow, after my Boxster's engine perked up I spoke with the local dealer techs. They all agreed that what I experienced was real. They admitted to either running a tank of Chevron gasoline once in a while or just using Techron out of a bottle.

The service advisor I talked to told me that in walking through the shop he saw a bottle of Techron was on almost every tech's tool box. He said while the dealer's parts counter sold some fuel system/deposit remover -- I forget the brand name -- the techs all used Techron. They bought this from a local auto parts store and paid retail rather than buy what the parts department carried and buy it at a discount.

At any rate I'm going to do what I can from behind the steering wheel to avoid usage that could result in a build up engine deposits. And I'll have the oil/filter changed more often. And once in a while use Techron. At some point I might have the tech remove some of the intake system so I can have a look to see how the intake is doing.

[fangelov]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Regardless of what gets on the intake valves it can still be removed by Techron. Will treat the engine to a dose of Techron every so often.

If you install a catch can I think you'll be quite disappointed in the amount of stuff it catches. On other forums owners who installed catch can have reported just a smidgen of stuff in thousands of miles.

(Which is probably a good thing. If it was catching a lot of stuff it would need checking much more often than every oil change. Maybe as often as every fuel tank fill up or perhaps even more often. If the can gets too full the engine could ingest a slug of oil/water glop and this could damage the engine.)

Chances are more than a smidgen of stuff is passing through just not getting trapped. A check of the intake would probably find it messy with oil that is from the oil vapor hitting the intake wall.

Might mention my info is refiners put oil into the gasoline, less than an ounce per gallon. IIRC it is around 2/3rds of an ounce per gallon. (The oil is intended to provide protection against corrosion in any of the ferrous metal the oil comes into contact with.) But in 5K miles and say 25mpg average the engine has burned 200 gallons of gasoline and assuming just 1/2 ounce of oil per gallon 100 ounces of oil. That's close to a gallon of oil. Thus the engine gets exposed to far more oil via the gasoline it burns vs any that comes through the crankcase ventilation system.

On a DI engine, whatever is in the fuel does not touch the back side of the intake valves where the carbon build up happens. I highly doubt that the Techron makes it there either. Very unlikely for it to "condensate" on the back of the valve that is still pretty hot, even if it somehow made it there. I can see how it can help with cleaning the injectors, maybe the piston rings to a degree. But probably very little harm of using.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by fangelov

On a DI engine, whatever is in the fuel does not touch the back side of the intake valves where the carbon build up happens. I highly doubt that the Techron makes it there either. Very unlikely for it to "condensate" on the back of the valve that is still pretty hot, even if it somehow made it there. I can see how it can help with cleaning the injectors, maybe the piston rings to a degree. But probably very little harm of using.

Well, my info is different. It is combustion/exhaust gas that does make it to the area of the intake valves (as an unfortunate side effect of the process to lower combustion chamber temperature to lower NOx emissions) and the intake valves are quite cool compared to the exhaust valves and even the surfaces exposed to direct combustion heat and experience a build up of deposits.

Techron has a liquid and vapor deposition phase. Liquid phase as the fuel with Techron flows through the fuel system and injector tips and as and Techron contact the combustion chamber/piston.

Vapor phase is after the heat of combustion has vaporized the Techron and then its vapor contacts cooler surfaces and reverts back to a liquid.

I would prefer to use Techron to help keep intake valve deposits from building up rather than have the build up blasted off with walnut shells.

If Techron fails then the walnut shell blasting is a fall back.

Or I have seen engines cleansed of deposits via a device that introduces a vapor of some engine deposit cleaner into the intake of a running engine.

This is a modern day version of a technique that I was taught decades ago that involved with an up to temperature engine running at 2K to 3K RPMs then spraying (in a fine mist) distilled water into the intake. This fine water spray first in liquid phase and then vapor phase reverting to liquid removed deposits.

There is also another way. Well, one that has appeared to work with port injected engines. The way involves subjecting the car/engine to a long bout of highway use.

For my frequent road trips it was a bit of a puzzle, but a pleasant surprise, to after leaving home and driving (most of the time) nearly 200 miles on the freeway (at legal speeds too) and after filling up the fuel tank noticing the engine running better.

In some cases a shorter drive proved to be beneficial. Had my Boxster fail smog. And this wasn't my first smog test and I had as before taken precautions to ensure the engine was ready to be smog tested. So the failure came as a surprise.

Talked to two senior techs separately and both recommended a spirited drive of some miles. I followed their advice. Drove around 40 miles but the last 20 miles was pretty sedate as I ended up behind a CHP cruiser and followed it all the way back to town.

Back at the test station and the car passed emissions with flying colors.

I have subjected my various DI vehicles to long highway drives. From 30 miles to 60 miles to a few of the vehicles hundreds of miles. So far I have not noticed any change for better or worse. One reason is in all cases the engines were relatively new and I like to believe had not experienced any valve/combustion chamber deposit build up that an engine with more miles might experience. Also, they all are fitted with wide band O2 sensors which results in much more precise fueling thus cleaner combustion.

[Carefree]

Well, you can lead a horse to water but………………

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by Carefree

Well, you can lead a horse to water but………………

Not if it was beat to death, or run over while doing a spirited drive to get the Techron to work...

[Fastfwd]

Originally Posted by Carefree

Not here to rain on anybody’s parade. However, I was employed by a large oil company in both the petroleum and chemical divisions. The additives you read about are predominantly little more than expensive marketing campaigns. Yes, the majors have patented specific names for their additives/blends but take it from an insider, the 91 (or 93) gasolines you buy daily are more alike than different. YMMV (mileage-I made a funny)

I have no idea, but I watched this guy do his home brew science project testing and it convinced me to use Shell in my new G87.

I have a Sam's right around the corner that I've always purchased my gasoline from and they are the lowest prices in town. Always used their premium in my Mustang and no issues, but I did have a catch can installed too.

This guy seems too straight laced to take payola to promote a product, but I could be wrong.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by Fastfwd

I have no idea, but I watched this guy do his home brew science project testing and it convinced me to use Shell in my new G87.

I have a Sam's right around the corner that I've always purchased my gasoline from and they are the lowest prices in town. Always used their premium in my Mustang and no issues, but I did have a catch can installed too.

This guy seems too straight laced to take payola to promote a product, but I could be wrong.

I stopped watching the video when he planned to compare Nitro to a “cheap” 87 octane. No reason to go any further.

Straight laced? Post prime time cable television is chock full of these hucksters.
YMMV

[Squidget]

ANYWAY... wandering back to the OP topic, you can start your car and drive immediately. There's zero harm to doing so.

Someone asked WHY in passing, and I know the answer to that one, thanks to my local firefighters.

Car manufacturers give that guidance because they don't want you idling your car in a closed garage. Best case, you set off carbon monoxide detectors in your home. (As my wife did, and why I was talking to a firefighter.) Worst case, someone dies.

Car companies don't want people dying in garages, and thus cars are engineered to allow drive off immediately.

If you are in open air and prefer to idle your car, that won't hurt it either, of course.

[Squidget]

Also, if you are idling your car for 5 minutes in a closed garage and NOT setting off alarms, you should probably install or fix your detectors. Carbon monoxide is no joke, it kills a lot of people. The more you know.

[KC87ZB]

Originally Posted by Geighty7

I have had my engine blow more “smoke” out the back when sitting at a red light too long when still cold. Unsure what that is but oh well.

Water vapor.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by KC87ZB

Water vapor.

Yep!

[KC87ZB]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

The service advisor I talked to told me that in walking through the shop he saw a bottle of Techron was on almost every tech's tool box. He said while the dealer's parts counter sold some fuel system/deposit remover -- I forget the brand name -- the techs all used Techron. They bought this from a local auto parts store and paid retail rather than buy what the parts department carried and buy it at a discount.

At any rate I'm going to do what I can from behind the steering wheel to avoid usage that could result in a build up engine deposits. And I'll have the oil/filter changed more often. And once in a while use Techron. At some point I might have the tech remove some of the intake system so I can have a look to see how the intake is doing.

Do what you want but fuel additives will not remove carbon deposits on DI engines, which the S58 is, as the air/fuel does not pass across the intake. This is not a port injected engine and should not be compared.

Any SA at BMW that recommends Techron or anything else to limit deposits in an S58 is an idiot. Period.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by KC87ZB

Do what you want but fuel additives will not remove carbon deposits on DI engines, which the S58 is, as the air/fuel does not pass across the intake. This is not a port injected engine and should not be compared.

Any SA at BMW that recommends Techron or anything else to limit deposits in an S58 is an idiot. Period.

SA didn't recommend Techron. Techron was recommended by techs some time back. The Porsche senior techs also recommended its use in port injected and direct injected engines.

Sure you are free to not use Techron or any other engine deposit cleaner.

There's always walnuts...

[g80_lucy_]

Order of operations:
1. Clutch-in
2. Turn on car
3. Hit M1
4a. If windows are frosted, turn heat all the way up and defroster on and wait for the windows to defrost
4b. If windows are clear, wait for the RPMs to drop after start-up cycle
5. Go!

When I start driving, I keep it under 3500 and generally take it easy on the throttle until the blue line on oil gauge is filled in before letting hell fly!

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by golf4kal

Order of operations:
1. Clutch-in
2. Turn on car
3. Hit M1
4a. If windows are frosted, turn heat all the way up and defroster on and wait for the windows to defrost
4b. If windows are clear, wait for the RPMs to drop after start-up cycle
5. Go!

When I start driving, I keep it under 3500 and generally take it easy on the throttle until the blue line on oil gauge is filled in before letting hell fly!

Mine is slightly different (and auto).
1. Hit M1
2. Hit start button
3. RPMs drop
4. Drive away

[aerobod]

It was right at the freezing point when I went out today, so 0C is not too cold for here at this time of year:

1. Start engine
2. Put on seat belt
3. Hit M1 button
4. Drive away immediately at about 2000 to 3000RPM in any gear until engine is above 70C
5. Let rip as appropriate

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by aerobod

It was right at the freezing point when I went out today, so 0C is not too cold for here at this time of year:

1. Start engine
2. Put on seat belt
3. Hit M1 button
4. Drive away immediately at about 2000 to 3000RPM in any gear until engine is above 70C
5. Let rip as appropriate

70C coolant temperature or oil temperature? Oil temperature lags behind coolant temperature but best if the oil is up to temperature.

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

70C coolant temperature or oil temperature? Oil temperature lags behind coolant temperature but best if the oil is up to temperature.

Oil temp, I don't worry about coolant temp unless it gets too high.

[rogueGTI]

Agree that we shouldn’t warm up too long., and the comments on this thread makes sense.

However doesn’t this then make the remote engine start kinda counterproductive/redundant?

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by rogueGTI

Agree that we shouldn’t warm up too long., and the comments on this thread makes sense.

However doesn’t this then make the remote engine start kinda counterproductive/redundant?

I use remote start to either heat/cool the interior when necessary. Other than that don't use it.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by rogueGTI

Agree that we shouldn’t warm up too long., and the comments on this thread makes sense.

However doesn’t this then make the remote engine start kinda counterproductive/redundant?

Not necessarily. It depends upon climate conditions.

Sometimes -- mostly on road trips -- I've left cars outside in winter weather. (See pic of 2006 GTO.)

Long story short it takes 5+ minutes of idle time with the heater set to defrost to help get the glass clear enough to safely operate the car.

In the mean time I'm sitting in a pretty cold car save for the times I am outside giving the windows a scrape. In this case remote start would allow the driver to warm up the car help melt any snow/ice on the car's glass so the driver then spends less time in the cold.

And hopefully it is less common for someone to take off in the car with the windows not yet properly cleared.

The flip side is when the car is parked outside in hot weather. Sure not every place is as hot as Death Valley but there have been reports of tourists there getting into their car and with shorts on and experiencing some pretty painful burns from the hot dark colored upholstery. Leather or man made coverings.

While I have not been in Death Valley a number of times my cars have been parked in CA direct sunlight for a number of hours and even through my long pants I can feel the heat. Women in shorts or dresses really complain and shift around in the seat to reduce the discomfort.

Remote start would give the A/C (and is fitted ventilated seats) time to cool the interior to a tolerable/safe level.

(Rather than use remote start to cool the car I found putting a loose cushion on the passenger seat took the direct sunlight keeping the seat bottom cool. Then when the passenger gets in the car she stands the cushion upright against the seat back and sits on the cooler seat bottom.)

The bit to avoid idling the engine after start is applicable to the majority of drivers and their cars' condition.

And it also clearly is applicable to how the car should be treated when it is being emissions/fuel economy tested. Yes, this testing only happens once per new model but there is considerable value in "gaming" the system (legally so and not like VW did it) to improve the final numbers.