[overlook637]

The compact SUV market is basically a slightly taller sedan or simply a better looking stationwagon.

I traded my VW Golf for a full size truck. I have zero kids and a 32" waist. I was worried about driving a small car and getting hit by a texting driver. I feel safer in a full size truck.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

But Cadillac also shot themselves in the ding dong by pricing right in line with the Germans. An ATS 2.0T might have a manual and an honest to god mechanical diff, but it also has this turd for a dash:

And because of that sky high pricing, they've had $14k incentives for at least two years, and similarly atrocious resale. The chassis is great, but the motors and transmissions are not. Add in sketchy resale and notoriously bad dealerships and it's a pretty easy decision to just stick to the Germans.

When I test drove an ATS V, the salesman looked at me as if I asked to see a Laferrari... then I drove it and the engine sounded like a vaccuum, the nav and dash was a joke and the tranny was fit for a pickup... that was when I said; they will sell like 5 of these cars w insane rebates... lo and behold; I've seen 3 since in a massive car market, wonder where the other two are?

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by ASAP

When I test drove an ATS V, the salesman looked at me as if I asked to see a Laferrari... then I drove it and the engine sounded like a vaccuum, the nav and dash was a joke and the tranny was fit for a pickup... that was when I said; they will sell like 5 of these cars w insane rebates... lo and behold; I've seen 3 since in a massive car market, wonder where the other two are?

I've driven the regular one a couple of times and the V once. It was just as you said, awful sound, crap transmission and cheap interior. I bought a GTI for $20k less and it feels like twice the car.

Having said that, I drove a Civic Si (because getting in an R for a test drive is a similar LaFerrari like screening) and it drove great, but my god, the inside and outside are so violently ugly I couldn't do it. Plus it's huge for what I need, a car to carry a kid and a dog. Why are 180+ inch cars a "compact?"

And one last thing, why are Minis not mini and also crap to drive? The first gen was great but the current ones are pathetic.

[allinon72]

It's one thing to make a crap car, but it's another thing to make a crap car and still not have a profit margin on it. GM is a terribly inefficient automaker, further hampered by the union mobs.

[gunsmoker]

If the sedans go extinct, we will be driving 911s and Caymans and there will be absolutely nothing wrong with that

[CirrusSR22]

Other, non-American car makers will be close behind.

Check out the Oct 17 vs Oct 18 sales of the Nissan Maxima, Honda Fit, Toyota Yaris, Toyota Mirai, Subaru Legacy, Honda Civic, Kia Cadenza, Hyundai Accent, VW Golf and VW Passat.

All absolutely terrible. Most in the 30-70% drop in sales range. No chance they’ll all survive.

Toyota is also cutting Camry production starting in December. So no, the Japanese don’t have it “figured out” with cars.

[autoart]

Whats going to happen if gas prices shoot-up again.
Then their truck and large suv sales will drop, with less cars to fill the void.
Putting all your eggs in 1 basket is not good.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by autoart

Whats going to happen if gas prices shoot-up again.
Then their truck and large suv sales will drop, with less cars to fill the void.
Putting all your eggs in 1 basket is not good.

Exactly, gas prices follow a cycle

[c63er]

From a practicability point, a sedan will always be inferior to an SUV. The only reason a sedan would sell better then an SUV is if it can offer something else. For quite a few years companies like BMW offered something else: FUN.

There's no question when it comes to fun factor an SUV can never beat a sedan. But now, auto companies have become hell bent on robbing us of fun in the name of making more sales in china.

As a result no one here wants a sedan anymore.

Shocking.

The sedan market would easily rebound if the right product was offered, but the right product will not be offered. This is because what is an actual good product would not sell in china, so the manufacturers will not make it.

I personally have owned BMW sedans for a long time and have been an advocate for my entire driving life. The fun factor paid and more then made up for any perceived limitations of the sedan. That is until around 8 years ago. Now there is no sedan from BMW I could imagine buying. If they are all oversized and devoid of fun, then the smart money gets an SUV, atleast I get some added practicality with one.

Thus you should expect to see the continued collapse of the sedan market. Once you start reading about Toyota scaling back Camry production then you will know it is officially over.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by jimmyfloyd

I think the issue is also that GM and Ford for the longest time put out the same cars with different badging, while BMW honda and toyota all focused on one brand.

Think of the cavelier/sunfire or Cobalt/G5, or impala/regal/grand prix/intrigue. Those were all basically the same cars just slightly different shape. Had they focused on one brand for those sizevehicle, like Honda has the civic and accord, or BMW with the 3 and 5 series, then I think they would have had a better run and better financial position. It would have had better sales numbers per segment, and fewer parts to design, build, maintain inventories of. The brands could have stuck around, but maybe like BMW did splitting the 4 doors to odd numbers, and 4 doors to even, they could have said Pontiac should have the 2 door cars, and doesn't need a 4 door segment. Keep the excitement. Chevy should have become their entry level and work truck brand. GMC should have become the luxury trucks and Cadillacs should have been their luxury brand, like Lexus for Toyota.

I think they just saturated the market with their own similar cars, and did not help themselves.

This is hillarious. Honda started the Acura brand in 1987. Toyota... Lexus in 1986. BMW... Mini and Rolls Royce. All these brands share major corporate chassis and drivetrain components. VW Corp. builds something on the order of 30+ different models off its MBQ global platform, including Porsche. Platform sharing and rebadging has been the automotive industry norm for 70 years or so. Platform sharing doesn't make for bad cars. BMW, after issuing a major advertising campaign just less than a decade ago that it does not "compromise" its models by sharing platforms, shares X1/X2 platforms with Mini, and Rolls with the 7-series. And then... the Toyota Z4... Lol.

[Darth One]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

But Cadillac also shot themselves in the ding dong by pricing right in line with the Germans. An ATS 2.0T might have a manual and an honest to god mechanical diff, but it also has this turd for a dash:

And because of that sky high pricing, they've had $14k incentives for at least two years, and similarly atrocious resale. The chassis is great, but the motors and transmissions are not. Add in sketchy resale and notoriously bad dealerships and it's a pretty easy decision to just stick to the Germans.

Can't really argue with that. They should have priced themselves against Toyota, and probably used the Chevy badge instead of Cadillac.

But a lot of people here are dismissing GM as not being able to make a good sedan, period. That was true for a long time, but not anymore.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Slaney

I would never venture into an American car dealership by choice. Not a one of them.

I have owned three American cars and four German cars. I must say that as far as reliability was concerned, the American cars fared much better than the Germans. That being said, it was a Ford SUV and two Dodge trucks. Never left me stranded, and no major issues apart form regular upkeep and maintenance.

Not sure I can say that about BMWs...

As far as sedans is concerned, I wouldn't think twice about picking up one of those Hellcat Chargers...

[P1]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

But Cadillac also shot themselves in the ding dong by pricing right in line with the Germans. An ATS 2.0T might have a manual and an honest to god mechanical diff, but it also has this turd for a dash:

And because of that sky high pricing, they've had $14k incentives for at least two years, and similarly atrocious resale. The chassis is great, but the motors and transmissions are not. Add in sketchy resale and notoriously bad dealerships and it's a pretty easy decision to just stick to the Germans.

My buddy bought a new Escalade not long ago. Top of the line Platinum edition or whatever it's called. Interior was worse than the Tahoe. And I took a look at the GPS screen. When he flipped it in reverse and the camera turned on, the screen quality was atrocious.

[Mingwan]

They’re alll going to start looking more like this

[Mr Carrots]

Originally Posted by P1et

I have owned three American cars and four German cars. I must say that as far as reliability was concerned, the American cars fared much better than the Germans. That being said, it was a Ford SUV and two Dodge trucks. Never left me stranded, and no major issues apart form regular upkeep and maintenance.

Not sure I can say that about BMWs...

As far as sedans is concerned, I wouldn't think twice about picking up one of those Hellcat Chargers...

The snobbery is hilarious considering a Camaro or GT would kill most of the cars owned on this forum, never mind a ZL1 ILE or GT350r

If BMW can offer a cheap V8 that can be easily, cheaply and safely boosted to 800+ HP and kill on a track then they can get my money for the next car

[saporitj]

I'm not a big US car fan BUT there are 4 reasons to visit a US dealership. Corvette, Cadillac, SUV, Pickup truck. IMHO there isn't a European sports car made that can compete with a Corvette in performance and looks at its price point. Americans rule the pickup truck market. American SUVs are good but now everyone makes SUVs and probably better. Cadillac, well enough said.
I like European cars because I think they have character but reliability overwhelmingly goes to Japanese cars. Funny because I was taken that BMW owners accept that their cars are less reliable but FUN to drive. I ALWAYS felt German cars were dependable but expensive to buy and own.
Who knows maybe the next big American move will be towards touring sedans (wagons) like the Europeans.

[Efthreeoh]

When BMW stops selling a plain ole 3-series with a manual transmission, the sports sedan is dead, let alone a grocery-getter sedan, oh, wait...

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by saporitj

I'm not a big US car fan BUT there are 4 reasons to visit a US dealership. Corvette, Cadillac, SUV, Pickup truck. IMHO there isn't a European sports car made that can compete with a Corvette in performance and looks at its price point. Americans rule the pickup truck market. American SUVs are good but now everyone makes SUVs and probably better. Cadillac, well enough said.
I like European cars because I think they have character but reliability overwhelmingly goes to Japanese cars. Funny because I was taken that BMW owners accept that their cars are less reliable but FUN to drive. I ALWAYS felt German cars were dependable but expensive to buy and own.
Who knows maybe the next big American move will be towards touring sedans (wagons) like the Europeans.

Corvette - Fits a strong stereotype, very few people outside of that group want that car no matter how well it performs. It's a car that isn't for everyone.

Cadillac - I am going to assume this is a joke. The Escalade is the only worhty vehicle and a ton of them are actually fleet sales.

SUV - Yes, Escalade...see above. Maybe Denali, Tahoe and Yukons since they are the same thing.

Pickup Truck -yes, this one I can agree on 100%... albeit Toyota with its Trucks is really not that far behind, then add that they are made in San Antonio makes you wonder how they are so profitable compared to our UAW filled shitholes.

[allinon72]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Cadillac - I am going to assume this is a joke. The Escalade is the only worhty vehicle and a ton of them are actually fleet sales.

I'm glad you brought up fleet sales, because it's often left out of the discussion of the health of US automakers, when in reality it makes up a HUGE portion of their sales.

[Kyngofpop]

Originally Posted by overlook637

Ford and GM just does not have a car capable of competing with the Accord or Camry.

Tbh I don't think they ever will. Every attempt since the 1st and 2nd gen Ford Taurus has been half-assed, almost like they don't even try. It's pathetic really...

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by Kyngofpop

Tbh I don't think they ever will. Every attempt since the 1st and 2nd gen Ford Taurus has been half-assed, almost like they don't even try. It's pathetic really...

They always seem to be a generation behind. They come out with a new car, and it's like "wow, that is actually pretty nice - it will compete nicely with the previous generation Accord and Camry from 6 years a go. Sigh."