[Germanauto]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Sure. I dont think anyone doubts the history of porsche and its merits, just as no one doubts Porsches ability to make an epic sportscar today.
But the part of porsche that makes those cars is not the main part nowadays. Certainly not when looking at the sales numbers. SUV's and saloons are its bread and butter today, and the sportscars are made to give the brand a certain image (or to keep that image at least). Without the SUV's Porsche would be bankrupt years ago, so making the sportscars is not really a direct profitable venture. But it aids of course in the sell of SUV's. It all fits in the Porsche marketing strategy (which is brilliant). Make an epic sportscar line -> buy in cheap suv platforms -> copy style icon details from the sportscars onto the SUV's -> sell the SUV's for a premium.
Brilliant

You've got to pay to play with Porsche now more than ever. The 911 seems to have become more of a GT car the past few years. The 992 looks ever larger. You've got to drop a pretty penny to get one that's more driver-focused.

Same with the BMW ///M division.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Sure. I dont think anyone doubts the history of porsche and its merits, just as no one doubts Porsches ability to make an epic sportscar today.
But the part of porsche that makes those cars is not the main part nowadays. Certainly not when looking at the sales numbers. SUV's and saloons are its bread and butter today, and the sportscars are made to give the brand a certain image (or to keep that image at least). Without the SUV's Porsche would be bankrupt years ago, so making the sportscars is not really a direct profitable venture. But it aids of course in the sell of SUV's. It all fits in the Porsche marketing strategy (which is brilliant). Make an epic sportscar line -> buy in cheap suv platforms -> copy style icon details from the sportscars onto the SUV's -> sell the SUV's for a premium.
Brilliant

I hear what you're saying, I guess my original point was that Porsche has sports cars and racing at it's origin, few other cars can make that claim.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

Porsche has sports cars and racing at it's origin, few other cars can make that claim.

I think that there are multiple car brands that have racing in their dna (Ferrari probably at most).

Porsche started out as a general engineering firm (designed the beetle, but also tanks etc), and after ww2 started to make the 356. A light little sportscar not initially intended to race.
Ferrari started as a racing team and started to make sportscars to fund their racing endeavours. (similar to bugatti back in the days)

And mercedes is so old....they invented racing as they invented about everything on car aspects. Its just that they build so many types of cars and trucks and etc etc that its more considered mainstream. But also at Mercedes the racing history and dna is there. There's just an aweful lot of dna.
Mercedes withdrew from racing for a long time because of a huge accident, right about the same time that porsche only started to make cars. So timelines are a bit distorted if you look at it that way. The 60 year or so racing pedigree that porsche has now, mercedes already had when porsche started so to speak.

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think that there are multiple car brands that have racing in their dna (Ferrari probably at most).

Porsche started out as a general engineering firm (designed the beetle, but also tanks etc), and after ww2 started to make the 356. A light little sportscar not initially intended to race.
Ferrari started as a racing team and started to make sportscars to fund their racing endeavours. (similar to bugatti back in the days)

And mercedes is so old....they invented racing as they invented about everything on car aspects. Its just that they build so many types of cars and trucks and etc etc that its more considered mainstream. But also at Mercedes the racing history and dna is there. There's just an aweful lot of dna.
Mercedes withdrew from racing for a long time because of a huge accident, right about the same time that porsche only started to make cars. So timelines are a bit distorted if you look at it that way. The 60 year or so racing pedigree that porsche has now, mercedes already had when porsche started so to speak.

Ferdinand Porsche designed Mercedes race cars in those early years.

[GuidoK]

Yes Ferdinand Porsche worked for mercedes, auto union, nsu and a load of others. He was a very famous engineer. (however mercedes already had purpose build racecars before Porsche started to work there)
However this is the father of Ferry Porsche. Dont know for sure but I think Ferry designed the 356?
Porsche is I think a very old and rich family historically (so industrialists even before Ferdinand Porsche)

[alex2364]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I'm sorry you're not interested in what 'the eyes of many' are. Considering that you live in a democratic, (relatively) free-market country, you should.

Learn sentence comprehension. It comes in handy.

:: rolls eyes ::

The eyes of many from the eyes of one? Not a single person has agreed with what you said.

[Run Silent]

Originally Posted by alex2364

The eyes of many from the eyes of one? Not a single person has agreed with what you.

LOL. If you review past threads, you will see a common theme.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes Ferdinand Porsche worked for mercedes, auto union, nsu and a load of others. He was a very famous engineer. (however mercedes already ahad purpose build racecars before Porsche started to work there)
However this is the father of Ferry Porsche. Dont know for sure but I think Ferry designed the 356?
Porsche is I think a very old and rich family historically (so industrialists even before Ferdinand Porsche)

So clearly you don't like Porsche. Thats your prerogative. Porsche build cars for the Nazi's so maybe that's your beef. MB builds some great cars. Go back in to the day, Auto Union (audi) and MB build some great cars, but sports cars weren't they bread and butter, Porsche since there inception was a sports car builder, it's in their DNA. Hate all you want, but the fact of the matter is, it's who they are.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

So clearly you don't like Porsche. Thats your prerogative. Porsche build cars for the Nazi's so maybe that's your beef.

You clearly dont understand what I've been saying, and you have no idea what my beef is. The nazis have absolutely nothing to do with it; all german car manufacturers that were there at the time made products for the nazis, so I dont understand why you would bring that up. I drive a BMW so I don't understand where you got that idea....

Let me put it this way: someone here said he playes devils advocate for a living (whatever that may be). I'm not like that. I'm an engineer in heart and soul (and in living ). When a new porsche comes out, everyone goes and see how it looks. body and interior. Not me, I'm mostly interested in how it looks on the underside (sometimes I feel I'm alone on that, especially here on bimmerpost). And in that regard the 911 and 718 are very interesting, and the Macan, Cayenne and Panamerea are utterly uninteresting (or at least not more or less interesting than say a VW touareg or audi Q5).
And those last 3 cars are porsches bread and butter (that is a fact). So most cars porsche makes nowadays are totally unintereresting in my eyes.
I think the big difference is that I look with a different eye at cars than you do.
And going back to my initial post (in the comparison between porsche and ferrari): ferrari only makes interesting cars

[Darth One]

I'm fine with anyone who says they find Ferrari more interesting than Porsche, but shouldn't that be another thread? Along with whatever this argument has devolved into what constitutes a "true" sports car...

[GuidoK]

You're probably right

I think the AMG GT is very similar to a corvette (technically).
Front-mid V8, dual wishbone all around, transaxle gearbox.

But when talking about 911 competitors, the corvette is hardly ever mentioned I think?
Is that because of the price difference or that its not german?

[sausage4]

There is also soul - something the new 911's don't offer.



I have a 991.2 gt3 with a straight pipe exhaust, I can tell you there is no car that can deliver the excitement it provide. That glorious 4.0. Cup derived engine, that revs to 9k rpm, coupled with my straight pipe exhaust, it’s like I’m driving a cup car on the street. If you don’t think a 991 have soul, try a 991.1 gts for non gt cars, and if you do get the opportunity to test out the gt3, that would change your mind.

[sausage4]

Originally Posted by usshelena725

Calm down there, fanboy, lol.

Seriously though - how many new Porsche owners spend any time regularly at the ring? Two, maybe three?

I would venture to say that Porsche probably has a higher percentage of owners that actually track their car on occasion than any other brand, save maybe the Mazda Miata - but even with that, I would imagine that the total is far less than 10%.

I've driven many Porsche's for long periods of time, including a 991 Turbo S. The cars are fantastic, but I enjoyed the 458 Italia much more. It isn't always about speed and handling. There is also soul - something the new 911's don't offer.

Porsche builds great cars - but the best in the world? hmmmm....

There is also soul - something the new 911's don't offer.



I have a 991.2 gt3 with a straight pipe exhaust, I can tell you there is no car that can deliver the excitement it provide. That glorious 4.0. Cup derived engine, that revs to 9k rpm, coupled with my straight pipe exhaust, it’s like I’m driving a cup car on the street. If you don’t think a 991 have soul, try a 991.1 gts for non gt cars, and if you do get the opportunity to test out the gt3, that would change your mind.

[sausage4]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I still dont think its a sportscar manufacturer. I'd call it a performance car manufacturer. Sportscar says it in its word: sports. So to be a sportscar, the design has to somehow align itself with autosport (or motorsport). And in various motorsport competition you see lots of 911's and also caymans/boxters going around the track. But cayennes? macans? I havent seen them racing. Maybe as an entry in the dakar rally, but then a pajero would also be a sportscar....
A macan or cayenne wouldnt stand a chance to a sportscar, given the same engine performance/size on a track. They're high and bulky, and those are not sporscar design principles. They're the opposite.
So I call a miata a sportscar but a cayenne turbo not. Despite the latter one having a bazillion more horsepower.




The LM-008 wasnt imho a sportscar, but it was a performance car.
And the Urus.... the same. For me the Urus is similar to a cayenne, or a bmw x6m or a bentley betayga etc. Luxury or performance orientated SUV's, but not sportscars. And yes, Lamborghini is nowadays also partly a platform rebrander. With the gallardo/huracan that was imho not a problem as far as sportscar dna goes (the R8 is also a very very good handling sporscar (and revolutionairy when it came out)), but as far as the Urus goes....meh.

Without the macan/cayenne we wouldn’t have the great gt product we have today. Where do you think the R&D money came from? The more macan they sell the better the gt3 will be, and not to mention, their race car gets trickle down to the street car ( gt cars ). So yes sell macans in volume to dominate racing and built fantastic gt cars for the enthusiast.

[GuidoK]

that's what I've been saying.

And of course they do it for the money.
Porsche is very profitable as a brand/company; their profit margin ratio is for example much higher than that of BMW or Mercedes.

[10"]

LOL at thinking Porsche cares at all about what Mercedes is doing...they literally give 0 shits.

I don't even like Porsches, especially everything after the 997 but Porsche buyers aren't running to get an MB.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 10"

but Porsche buyers aren't running to get an MB.

Maybe 911 buyers arent (although I stand by my opinion that AMG GT owners probably have owned a 911 or two in their life), but I'm pretty sure that MB GLC/GLE coupe cars (the higher specced ones) are competing with the Macans etc.
And that means competing with porsches most profitable segment. Still porsche seems to be doing all right judging by their annual corporate figures

If you look at the sales nubers 911 versus amg gt, for the US thats 8,970 vs 1,609 (so mercedes took 15% of that combined total market potential) and for europe thats 15,053 vs 2,443 (so Mercedes took 14% of that total market potential).

As far as GLC coupe versus Macan I couldnt find US data for the GLC coupe specificly (its all GLC and that of cours hugely outsells the macan), but in europe (for 2017) the sales figures for GLC coupe (since its recent launch) are very very close to the macan (26,555 macan versus 27,385 GLC coupe) so there is a big big fight going on in that segment. Sales are virtually the same on 2 cars competing in the same segment, starting around at the same base price (47300 (glc coupe us price) versus 47800 for the base macan). But I'm sure options for porsche are more expensive so there porsche can make some extra money, and of course they get the el cheapo platforms from volkswagen so that also saves them a tonne of money. But as far as sales goes, porsche has their hands full with the recent merc GLC as it directly rivals and outsells their best selling product.

I'm eager to see what the coming audi Q6 is going to do. That will also become a competative car to the macan (well, its of course the same car). But thats typical VAG strategic planning. Flood a (nice) market segment with as many models as possible from different brands in your own corporate holding (brands like hyundai/kia do the same of course)

[10"]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Maybe 911 buyers arent (although I stand by my opinion that AMG GT owners probably have owned a 911 or two in their life), but I'm pretty sure that MB GLC/GLE coupe cars (the higher specced ones) are competing with the Macans etc.
And that means competing with porsches most profitable segment. Still porsche seems to be doing all right judging by their annual corporate figures

If you look at the sales nubers 911 versus amg gt, for the US thats 8,970 vs 1,609 (so mercedes took 15% of that combined total market potential) and for europe thats 15,053 vs 2,443 (so Mercedes took 14% of that total market potential).

As far as GLC coupe versus Macan I couldnt find US data for the GLC coupe specificly (its all GLC and that of cours hugely outsells the macan), but in europe (for 2017) the sales figures for GLC coupe (since its recent launch) are very very close to the macan (26,555 macan versus 27,385 GLC coupe) so there is a big big fight going on in that segment. Sales are virtually the same on 2 cars competing in the same segment, starting around at the same base price (47300 (glc coupe us price) versus 47800 for the base macan). But I'm sure options for porsche are more expensive so there porsche can make some extra money, and of course they get the el cheapo platforms from volkswagen so that also saves them a tonne of money. But as far as sales goes, porsche has their hands full with the recent merc GLC as it directly rivals and outsells their best selling product.

I'm eager to see what the coming audi Q6 is going to do. That will also become a competative car to the macan (well, its of course the same car). But thats typical VAG strategic planning. Flood a (nice) market segment with as many models as possible from different brands in your own corporate holding (brands like hyundai/kia do the same of course)

Well in all fairness I don't really think of Macans as real Porsches. When I say Porsche i am talking about 911s, Cayman (Caymen?), Boxters. Macans and Panameras etc are like the appliance Porsches meant for corporate profit and kinship with Audi. Not sports or enthusiast cars...

[omegaSMP300]

Brand management and brand loyalty will dictate a lot of this. I for one would not be opposed to having a Mercedes in the garage. But for now the idea of a weekender or sports car is Porsche not Merc.

Mercedes does plenty of things well but the look, feel, appeal, and desire for a Porsche is not something easily taken away.

If Porsche ends up with some ugly/poor performing cars then other companies may catch them (if only during for that generation) so far though they've been doing it right again and again..... and again.

I hope to be back in a 911 soon myself .

[P1]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

I don’t understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins. What “better chassis” cars with the same hp and weight can even come close to that? The ACR can’t beat it with much more power, much more downforce, stickier tires and lower weight. The 488 can’t touch it. Hell, Mclaren couldn’t lap in under 7 mins with a 3000 lb mid engines 1000 hp hypercar a nd Porsche did it with more weight, far less hp and torque and less downforce to boot and less sticky tires. The only company who can really beat Porsche is Porsche.
What people tend to forget is that every car has inherent pros and cons, the 911 while sitting still may look wrong, while driving it is more balanced, better braking, better in so many ways. That’s part of why they are simply so hard to beat and while doing so with less hp and continue to be the bar to which all cars are judged and the one car that for decades everyone else has tried to beat and always falls short.
I’m a huge 911 fan and have been sold since my first drive. I love the 911 I own, but also my 718 GTS and Macan GTS.

I love Porsches as much as the next guy, but do you truly think that 99% of 911 buyers give a shit about how fast it goes around the Ring? If the 488 can "touch it"? If the ACR does blah blah blah?

Doubt it.

[Funf6cyl]

Originally Posted by P1et

I love Porsches as much as the next guy, but do you truly think that 99% of 911 buyers give a shit about how fast it goes around the Ring? If the 488 can "touch it"? If the ACR does blah blah blah?

Doubt it.

In all honestly, no, most people don’t care beyond the surface level information. The absurdly fast track times despite not being an important issue help to bolster a cars reputation, or they wouldn’t be talked about at all.
911s offer a driver experience I don’t think any other car offers or matches - that is why I think most people buy them including me. The other stuff is just icing on the cake as they say.

[P1]

Originally Posted by Funf6cyl

In all honestly, no, most people don’t care beyond the surface level information. The absurdly fast track times despite not being an important issue help to bolster a cars reputation, or they wouldn’t be talked about at all.
911s offer a driver experience I don’t think any other car offers or matches - that is why I think most people buy them including me. The other stuff is just icing on the cake as they say.

I’ll be the first to admit I’ll buy one just for its looks. Nothing else.