[c1pher]

Originally Posted by johnung

Hey I live in NJ ranked #3 in gun laws. It's a paperwork and approval process to buy a gun. Not a big deal if I really want a gun for hunting or target shooting, etc. Have a bunch of friends that have them for those purposes. Or I can just drive 15 minutes to Camden and buy a gun for cash right on the streets.

Overwhelming odds are that that gun is brand new and originated from a straw sale in Ohio where apparently it's easy to buy many guns. Then drive them to NJ for quick cash. Most of the crime guns in NJ are traced by our NJ State Police back to straw sales in Ohio.

You won't read complaints in other states about crime guns traced back to straw gun sales originating in NJ. If all states had stricter gun laws everyone who qualified could still get a gun for hunting or target shooting. But the availability of straw crime guns would dry right up.

I've got friends who are local cops who never know when someone is going to pull one of those damn Ohio straw guns on them. A cops job is tough enough. They and their families should not have to risk their lives more just because Ohio has lax gun laws that allow easy straw sales. It really pisses me off. The solution is so damn easy!

What is the solution?

[Alfisti]

Stunned it too this long, figured the US would go gun crazy a few weeks back.

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Stunned it too this long, figured the US would go gun crazy a few weeks back.

Yeah me too. The thing is hoarding and buying food or TP won't get anyone hurt. Sadly, some of these reactive new gun owners will have "accidents" since there isn't any place to learn how to safely handle a gun.

The time to buy a gun is during times of quiet. Take the time to understand why you are buying, what gun is best for you, and get training on how to safely use it.

I have a nephew with a pregnant wife who just bought his first gun. I hope he is careful with it. I'm not local and can't help train him.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by c1pher

What is the solution?

Tougher laws in every state that prevent straw gun sales, or a federal law that does the same.

Other states have the same complaint. Massachusetts is supposed to have the toughest gun laws in the country. Most of the guns used in crimes in Massachusetts come from straw gun sales sold in states bordering them. If all of those New England states had laws restricting straw gun sales then the availability of crime guns would dry up and everyone would be safer both the cops and the public.

It wouldn't prevent hunters or target shooters from buying guns. But it would stop it from being easy to make a quick buck by buying a bunch of guns in one state and driving over the border to sell them in another. People looking to make a quick buck would do something else, like sell toilet paper and hand sanitizer!

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by johnung

Tougher laws in every state that prevent straw gun sales, or a federal law that does the same.

Other states have the same complaint. Massachusetts is supposed to have the toughest gun laws in the country. Most of the guns used in crimes in Massachusetts come from straw gun sales sold in states bordering them. If all of those New England states had laws restricting straw gun sales then the availability of crime guns would dry up and everyone would be safer both the cops and the public.

It wouldn't prevent hunters or target shooters from buying guns. But it would stop it from being easy to make a quick buck by buying a bunch of guns in one state and driving over the border to sell them in another. People looking to make a quick buck would do something else, like sell toilet paper and hand sanitizer!

Straw sales are illegal in every state.

Sounds like the people you are complaining about are already breaking the law. So the plan is - pass more laws? How does that work?

Here is the question on the ATF Form 4473 which is required to purchase a gun in any US state. It is question 11.a

"""Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"""

If you answer no to any of the questions on the form you are not allowed to complete the transaction. So in effect every state already has a straw man purchase law on the books via the federal government.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

... Here is the question on the ATF Form 4473 which is required to purchase a gun in any US state. It is question 11.a

"""Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"""

That is pretty bad, as I'm sure are some of the other questions. Why can't our fed reps fix these probs? A: N-R-A?
Still, some localities, states, countries, do better limiting the carnage; laws & practices aren't the same everywhere. We can't just give in to it.

So, what will happen to all these guns now being bought, when the present, latest fear subsides? Where will they find their way to...?

Murf

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

Although I've been considering a new PCC, I have plenty of firearms and ammo to defend myself. I'll put off buying another so someone else can properly protect their family and property.

If anything I'll pick up a IWB holster in case I need to become mobile and concealed carry laws become irrelevant.

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

That is pretty bad, as I'm sure are some of the other questions. Why can't our fed reps fix these probs? A: N-R-A?
Still, some localities, states, countries, do better limiting the carnage; laws & practices aren't the same everywhere. We can't just give in to it.

So, what will happen to all these guns now being bought, when the present, latest fear subsides? Where will they find there way to...?

Murf

I'm not sure what is bad about it. The form mandates that the buyer be purchasing for themself. It bans straw sales. So I miss the problem.


As for the NRA one should also consider what IS the NRA? To those that side with more gun laws they are usually considered an evil empire that buys politicians and prevents "common sense" new laws. The reality couldn't be further from the truth. They provide a few functions.

1) They are the largest provider of gun safety training in the country. Hunter safety was the original purpose and now including child safety training which despite most anti-gun people thinking it means teaching them how to shoot actually trains them to STOP - DON'T TOUCH - GET AN ADULT if they see a gun.

2) Yes they also represent a voter bloc. These are normal Americans that have a different opinion to those who want to ban the ownership of guns. And they want their organization to keep them informed of which politicians respect their position. Nothing heinous abut that. Consider it the flip side of the Center for Reproductive Rights.

And before I get called a shill for the NRA - I am not a member. Sorry in advance to those who were planning on an emotional reaction to my view of what the NRA is.

Lastly on the guns being bought now I don't know. Assuming this virus thing blows over and the purchase of self defense is determined to be unnecessary for this pandemic how will new owners react? Some of the new owners might decide to try and sell them back to the store. Means lots of unfired used guns for sale in October (or whenever).

Some of them will forget them and throw them in a closet. Not optimal and hopefully they prevent children from finding them loaded.

Some will decide to sell them privately. This is an interesting issue and one of the rare ones that anti-gun people might actually have a point. The "gun show loophole" of course isn't. All dealers must use the standard transfer program regardless of where they do business. And many states also mandate any transfer (private sales) require using and FFL to complete the transfer. However, some states have no such requirement. Here in AZ I am free to sell any of my guns (excepting the class III) in a face to face sale for cash and no record of the event. I confess that concerns me and I do not sell my guns to anyone. If I get rid of one I use a licensed dealer. Of course a gun show is irrelevant to this and dealers are always required to perform the transfer policy of the federal government.

And some will decide that just because THIS time it wasn't necessary they will learn to become proficient for any future needs that arise.

Who knows. Based on estimates there were already at least one gun for every person living in the USA before this it is a drop in the bucket and not worth worrying about.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

I'm not sure what is bad about it. The form mandates that the buyer be purchasing for themself. It bans straw sales. So I miss the problem....
Based on estimates there were already at least one gun for every person living in the USA before this it is a drop in the bucket and not worth worrying about.

Actually, I agree with you on the application question. It might be difficult English, but I'm sure it can be worked through.
You're closing sentence I find a bit... worrying.

Murf

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by Littlebear

Actually, I agree with you on the application question. It might be difficult English, but I'm sure it can be worked through.
You're closing sentence I find a bit... worrying.

Murf

What I mean is the current buying frenzy is a drop in the bucket. It doesn't really change the equation. There are already 300 million guns in private hands in the US.

There are lots of things we could do to reduce violent crime. Exactly which crime and what steps are the connection that need to be made. Most of the proposed new gun laws fail to ever suggest what they will address or how it will work. Nor do they consider unintended consequences or the constitutionality of what they propose. Any proposal that actually meets the constitution and logically shows how it will positively impact our lives I am all for.

My issue is with politicians that pander to fear and suggest stuff that really doesn't work or make us safer. Or in many cases makes us less safe. But it gets them votes. They are no better than the ones that fear monger to gun owners or abortion foes. They know they aren't really solving anything.

My solution to much of our problems? Term limits. We need to have elected representation that understands it is NOT a superior class and in it for a lifetime career. Serve for a period and return to making a living in the private sector. Ahhh but I dream out loud.

Nice to converse without acrimony. Now, off to the golf course. With appropriate social distancing of course.

[AlpineWhite_SJ]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

Although I've been considering a new PCC, I have plenty of firearms and ammo to defend myself. I'll put off buying another so someone else can properly protect their family and property.

If anything I'll pick up a IWB holster in case I need to become mobile and concealed carry laws become irrelevant.

I did the exact same thing - impossible here to get a CCW permit so didn’t have one, but better to have one than not.

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

What I mean is the current buying frenzy is a drop in the bucket. It doesn't really change the equation. There are already 300 million guns in private hands in the US.

Nice to converse without acrimony. Now, off to the golf course. With appropriate social distancing of course.

We can't just sit on old laws, because people will always find new ways around them. re: ~ 1995 > present for gun laws, & tax laws all the time!

A little wrestling isn't always bad!

Murf

[qba335i]

My gun store: no ammo sales.
Exception: buy a gun and you are eligible to buy 1 box.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by qba335i

My gun store: no ammo sales.
Exception: buy a gun and you are eligible to buy 1 box.

Ouch. What's their definition of one box?

So glad I had done a large purchase a year or so ago before all this mess started.

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

Straw sales are illegal in every state.

Sounds like the people you are complaining about are already breaking the law. So the plan is - pass more laws? How does that work?

Here is the question on the ATF Form 4473 which is required to purchase a gun in any US state. It is question 11.a

"""Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual transferee/buyer if you are
acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual transferee/buyer, the licensee cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you. Exception: If you are picking up a repaired firearm(s) for another person, you are not required to answer 11.a. and may proceed to question 11.b. (See Instructions for Question 11.a.)"""

If you answer no to any of the questions on the form you are not allowed to complete the transaction. So in effect every state already has a straw man purchase law on the books via the federal government.

HaHa, of course straw gun sales are illegal everywhere. It's a matter of how the law and gun purchase process is structured. No one is saying to pass law on top of law. Get rid of the law that doesn't work and replace it with a law and process that doesn't have giant holes in it that make straw gun sales easy.

It's not rocket science. NJ and Massachusetts and other states have laws that actually prevent straw gun sales. Pretty simple to copy what they have already done that's successful. If all states actually prevented straw gun sales our police and our citizens would all be a lot safer without straw crime guns on the streets.

[adc100]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

Straw sales are illegal in every state.

Sounds like the people you are complaining about are already breaking the law. So the plan is - pass more laws? How does that work? t.

This

[qba335i]

Originally Posted by zx10guy

Ouch. What's their definition of one box?

So glad I had done a large purchase a year or so ago before all this mess started.

Probably a standard 20-50 box with a cheaper gun. I am sure things are "negotiable" with more expensive items.

[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

I posted this in the political memes thread, but it's also relevant here...

[Littlebear]

Originally Posted by johnung

It's not rocket science. NJ and Massachusetts and other states have laws that actually prevent straw gun sales. Pretty simple to copy what they have already done that's successful. If all states actually prevented straw gun sales our police and our citizens would all be a lot safer without straw crime guns on the streets.

This.

Take responsibility.
This month a report came out showing how states that didn't adopt the stricter CA auto pollution standards ("net exporters") are responsible for much of the transportation pollution in the NE states that did adopt the CA standards.
Same thing.

Murf

[jamesinaz]

Originally Posted by johnung

HaHa, of course straw gun sales are illegal everywhere. It's a matter of how the law and gun purchase process is structured. No one is saying to pass law on top of law. Get rid of the law that doesn't work and replace it with a law and process that doesn't have giant holes in it that make straw gun sales easy.

It's not rocket science. NJ and Massachusetts and other states have laws that actually prevent straw gun sales. Pretty simple to copy what they have already done that's successful. If all states actually prevented straw gun sales our police and our citizens would all be a lot safer without straw crime guns on the streets.

Where are the giant holes? What exactly would you change?

[johnung]

Originally Posted by jamesinaz

Where are the giant holes? What exactly would you change?

Change whatever makes it so easy to have straw gun sales in Ohio that the NJ State Police say that's where most of the crime guns used in NJ originate. I haven't heard anyone complain that straw gun sales from NJ are supplying crime guns to their state. I would bet that every state knows where crime guns used in their state originate. I don't write laws for a living and would much rather research car stuff.

[cooolone2]

Originally Posted by adc100

I will be the first to say that 90% of folks that carry concealed are not very well trained even to the extent that they don't know what situation they could handle. The fact is that the likely scenario is that a crime with a gun occurs close to them. The likely correct response would be to take cover. After that your actions would be dictated by what you are able to handle.

Other than your anecdotal post, provide validation of your assumptions of the 90% as it is well off the mark. Military and Law Enforcement, active or otherwise that carry are trained. And obvious by your post is the ignorance of all the "Training" systems and provisions available to firearm owners throughout the U.S. I've been to many States, and have yet to find one that does not have ranges and associated training. Any training I've participated in is well sold out ahead of time. Go ahead, try to get a spot in the Sig Academy!

I carry when I am going to a restaurant where I will be sitting down. I'll carry on a trip. I don't carry in a grocery store.

It works for you, that's good.

Your basic untrained John Wayne (even if he/she goes to the range) will be carrying 14+ rounds and an extra magazine. There is no way in hell they are trained to fire off that number of rounds.

I don't totally disagree with your opinion. But again Americans have that right.

Well, yes, expressing opinions is great, they're especially entertaining when they're factually inccorect. Any people obtain their so called knowledge from the internet, then regurgitate it as fact. Your "John Wayne" statement is very telling and invalidates all your other assumptions.

Fact is most firearm owners are knowledgeable, not only to the laws surrounding the ownership, but it's use. And quite frankly, your posts align the koolaid program that there is some sort of asocciated qualifications for exercising 2A Rights. Wonder if it would be ok to assign the same litmus to your speech, or opinion as you've noted. How about only those who've passed qualifications on certain subjects be allowed to publicy express their opinion?

And the possession of amount of ammunition, just lol, obviously you are not very well versed in the typical firearm encounter.

Check your facts and become knowledgeable, you'll appreciate it.