[TupperBMW]

Originally Posted by M3WC

10+ years to build a true enthusiasts EV, something tossible. 3500lbs max, rwd, 350hp min, 300mile range. Can not build that car until new battery tech arrives.

For now, EV party trick is 0-60 under 2sec in 5000+ lbs luxobarges with heavy 100+kwh battery packs. That will get old and already is yesterdays news. They are all the same. The only EV with personality is the Rivian with it's quad motors.

For sure the acceleration is great, but even you have to admit....how much faster can you go than 0-60 in under 2 seconds without it literally just getting dangerous? I mean, it legitimately becomes a safety issue where drivers can pass out if they accelerate much faster. The same Government that is FORCING people into EVs is eventually going to mandate an acceleration ceiling on new cars, and that's the end of that.

Moreover....the sound. There is no sound. No smell. No vibration. If that doesn't matter to you then that's cool, but aftermarket exhaust parts are a multibillion dollar industry. I just spent $7k on a titanium exhaust for my R8. People want this stuff. I just don't know how any EV will manage to replace that without fake noise, and the lack of authenticity right there will be a HUGE turn off for many. Sigh.....

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by TupperBMW

For sure the acceleration is great, but even you have to admit....how much faster can you go than 0-60 in under 2 seconds without it literally just getting dangerous? I mean, it legitimately becomes a safety issue where drivers can pass out if they accelerate much faster. The same Government that is FORCING people into EVs is eventually going to mandate an acceleration ceiling on new cars, and that's the end of that.

Moreover....the sound. There is no sound. No smell. No vibration. If that doesn't matter to you then that's cool, but aftermarket exhaust parts are a multibillion dollar industry. I just spent $7k on a titanium exhaust for my R8. People want this stuff. I just don't know how any EV will manage to replace that without fake noise, and the lack of authenticity right there will be a HUGE turn off for many. Sigh.....

Right on.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by TupperBMW

For sure the acceleration is great, but even you have to admit....how much faster can you go than 0-60 in under 2 seconds without it literally just getting dangerous? I mean, it legitimately becomes a safety issue where drivers can pass out if they accelerate much faster. The same Government that is FORCING people into EVs is eventually going to mandate an acceleration ceiling on new cars, and that's the end of that.

Moreover....the sound. There is no sound. No smell. No vibration. If that doesn't matter to you then that's cool, but aftermarket exhaust parts are a multibillion dollar industry. I just spent $7k on a titanium exhaust for my R8. People want this stuff. I just don't know how any EV will manage to replace that without fake noise, and the lack of authenticity right there will be a HUGE turn off for many. Sigh.....

I couldn't care less about 0-60 or straight line speed. I'd prefer a Cayman GT4 RS over a 911 Turbo S.

[TupperBMW]

^ Yeah, I"m with you on that. Don't get me wrong, I want my sports car to be fast. But going 0-60 under 4 seconds is MORE THAN FAST ENOUGH. After that, it's all about handling, looks, and how the car makes YOU feel, if you ask me.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by TupperBMW

^ Yeah, I"m with you on that. Don't get me wrong, I want my sports car to be fast. But going 0-60 under 4 seconds is MORE THAN FAST ENOUGH. After that, it's all about handling, looks, and how the car makes YOU feel, if you ask me.

The bigger problem with people sitting behind more and more powerful point and shoot cars with less and less seat time experience is.. who the fuck is going from a dig and shutting it down at 60 in these cars?

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

The bigger problem with people sitting behind more and more powerful point and shoot cars with less and less seat time experience is.. who the fuck is going from a dig and shutting it down at 60 in these cars?

Good point. Exactly how long does it take to shut down a 9000lb 1000hp new Hummer or even the Lucid air that can reach 100mph in just a few seconds? Ever watch Plaid owners faces when while they try to stop from a 1/4 mile run? Braking distance seems to be an afterthought.

Before Tesla, pushing 1000hp in a car meant real commitment - An incredible amount of work, sacrifice, and money to reach that level of performance. This naturally limited the amount of vehicles with this amount of power (or even close to) were ever on the road and they certainly were not daily drivers.

With the advent of high range battery packs and 96+% efficient electric motors, tapping 1000+ hp is nothing to car companies. No crazy turbo/supercharger setups, no sacrifice in mileage or driveability. No massive increase in production costs.

Enjoy the overpowered EV's while it lasts. Geo-fenced Horsepower targets for city & populated areas is inevitable, just a matter of how many people have to die before it happens. Over the air updates will make it easy to implement instantly once the federal regulation is passed.

"Senator XXXXX Introduces New Legislation Limiting Passenger Vehicles to 150HP per Ton"

When everyone drives a 10 second car, no one will.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Good point. Exactly how long does it take to shut down a 9000lb 1000hp new Hummer or even the Lucid air that can reach 100mph in just a few seconds? Ever watch Plaid owners faces when while they try to stop from a 1/4 mile run? Braking distance seems to be an afterthought.

Before Tesla, pushing 1000hp in a car meant real commitment - An incredible amount of work, sacrifice, and money to reach that level of performance. This naturally limited the amount of vehicles with this amount of power (or even close to) were ever on the road and they certainly were not daily drivers.

Enjoy the overpowered EV's while it lasts, Geo-fenced Horsepower targets for city & populated areas is coming, just a matter of how many have to die before it happens. Over the air updates will make it easy to implement instantly once the federal regulation is passed.

"Senator XXXXX Introduces New Legislation Limiting Passenger Vehicles to 150HP per Ton"

When everyone drives a 10 second car, nobody will.

I love cars, and coming from the muscle car era, like you I see bolting on fan motors to an axle and and scaling batteries as a cheat.

I think there will be far more government intervention than geo-fencing . With the push for 2035 and given battery material shortfalls, huge infrastructural gaps and numerous other vaporware, they are going to regulate power in several ways x # of motors, y kwh battery maximums and z top speed governors -- unless you pay an astronomical luxury tax.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by CarsAndGuitars

I love cars, and coming from the muscle car era, like you I see bolting on fan motors to an axle and and scaling batteries as a cheat.

I think there will be far more government intervention than geo-fencing . With the push for 2035 and given battery material shortfalls, huge infrastructural gaps and numerous other vaporware, they are going to regulate power in several ways x # of motors, y kwh battery maximums and z top speed governors -- unless you pay an astronomical luxury tax.

Why haven't they done that with these stupid fast ICE cars then?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by TupperBMW

But it’s so ugly

As long as I don’t have to own a Tesla, I’m fine with them existing. They are like Honda Accords now. And their speed doesn’t change that, they are just an afterthought meant to be ignored.

The Lucid Air feels way more special, but I would never throw away my money on that. I’d still take a V12 Ferrari or Lambo over that, every single time.

In what way is it ugly when some of us drive G8x cars with it's horrendous ass design?

It's a great car don't get me wrong, that's why i got it but make no mistake it's an ugly ass car. F8x cars look so much better. And this is coming from someone who LOVES anything new. New tech, no trends, new cars, new everything. I love new innovative things. I love evolution. I don't get stuck in the past.

A lowered model s plaid, because i've seen a lot of people do it, with tints looks absolutely menacing. There's one thing to look menacing on the road. But to back it up is another story.

A model s plaid is both. It can back up it's menacing looks.

It absolutely looks better than a taycan that's for sure. And i love porsche. The taycan is one ugly ass car. The audi e-tron looks better, although not by much. I would say the e-tron GT and the model s are even in terms of styling.

I actually do like the lucid air. That's why i applaud it in my earlier post. I said thank god finally a plaid contender. Because it is.

However, still, the tesla takes it when you consider everything as a whole.

It'll take time for car makers to catch tesla. But it's cool to witness them trying. That's why the EV wars is so interesting!

[TupperBMW]

^ When did I say that the G80 M cars are pretty? LOL

I would have to disagree that the Plaid looks special in the least. Sure, if you lower it and pimp it out you can get it to look semi-decent, but you won't see me lust after it.

And I am fine with new and latest tech--in my daily driver.

But with sports cars I prefer something more raw. Speed is merely one attribute, but it's a whole blend of experience. I want to feel, hear, smell, and drive my car. That's why a lot of people like manual transmissions.

A Plaid can do circles around a F12 Berlinetta, but I would take the F12 in a heartbeat. And the market agrees with me, which is why the F12 is so much more expensive than a Plaid.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

In what way is it ugly when some of us drive G8x cars with it's horrendous ass design?

It's a great car don't get me wrong, that's why i got it but make no mistake it's an ugly ass car. F8x cars look so much better. And this is coming from someone who LOVES anything new. New tech, no trends, new cars, new everything. I love new innovative things. I love evolution. I don't get stuck in the past.

A lowered model s plaid, because i've seen a lot of people do it, with tints looks absolutely menacing. There's one thing to look menacing on the road. But to back it up is another story.

A model s plaid is both. It can back up it's menacing looks.

It absolutely looks better than a taycan that's for sure. And i love porsche. The taycan is one ugly ass car. The audi e-tron looks better, although not by much. I would say the e-tron GT and the model s are even in terms of styling.

I actually do like the lucid air. That's why i applaud it in my earlier post. I said thank god finally a plaid contender. Because it is.

However, still, the tesla takes it when you consider everything as a whole.

It'll take time for car makers to catch tesla. But it's cool to witness them trying. That's why the EV wars is so interesting!

Tesla over Lucid? I guess everyone's entitled to their opinions. The only advantage I can see Tesla having over Lucid is their charging network, which early adopters and those who can afford these cars clearly don't give two craps about. I guess if you can't wait for a Lucid, go with a Plaid if you have to, but given the choice I would totally go Lucid.

[CarsAndGuitars]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Why haven't they done that with these stupid fast ICE cars then?

Not too many people go out and buy a Hellcat or Super Snake as their first ICE car. But with so much new money and the novelty of EVs, everyone wants one. I would be interested to know of those who buy them primarily for straight line performance (and not as commuting appliances), how many still feel the novelty / honeymoon with their purchase after a year.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Cos270

Tesla over Lucid? I guess everyone's entitled to their opinions. The only advantage I can see Tesla having over Lucid is their charging network, which early adopters and those who can afford these cars clearly don't give two craps about. I guess if you can't wait for a Lucid, go with a Plaid if you have to, but given the choice I would totally go Lucid.

Only advantage?

I guess you forgot about the price. Did anyone even check the price on the sapphire? I just did. It's 250k.

A tesla model s plaid is 135k.

Charging network is HUGE because that is everyone's concern. Charging charging charging. Nothing beats the tesla network as of right now. Hence why i said tesla is so far ahead of everyone. By the time people catch up, tesla has more updates.

If you want to nitpick on the styling, interior and build quality, then i guess it is what it is. I think the taycan looks ugly. Some people love it. Some people love the legendary ferrari F50 and i think that's one of the ugliest cars ever made.

We're not broke people. We can afford tesla plaids if that's what you want to buy. However if you're an EV fanatic and want a sapphire, then most likely you won't be able to afford it.

Tesla gives you that opportunity to be able to own a car that is usable, innovative, the network, and the performance, if you're in EV's.

Tesla DOES NOT have a direct competitor to where you match every stat and tesla loses overall.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Tesla DOES NOT have a direct competitor to where you match every stat and tesla loses overall.

Are you saying the Lucid doesn't stand up to the Tesla a direct competitor when comparing "every stat"?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Are you saying the Lucid doesn't stand up to the Tesla a direct competitor when comparing "every stat"?

Overall?

It doesn't. Right off the bat the price difference. That's huge when car shopping.

You can get 2 plaids for 1 sapphire.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Overall?

It doesn't. Right off the bat the price difference. That's huge when car shopping.

You can get 2 plaids for 1 sapphire.

That's one stat, what about the others? This is where I'm confused about your premise.

I mean, we all know a Bently costs more than a BMW, but does that mean the BMW is just simply better than a Bently, to the point that the BMW has no real competition?

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

That's one stat, what about the others? This is where I'm confused about your premise.

I mean, we all know a Bently costs more than a BMW, but does that mean the BMW is just simply better than a Bently, to the point that the BMW has no real competition?

Which BMW and which bentley? Compare 2 cars of similarities and we can start there.

The lucid air and the plaid are obviously "competitors", meaning 4 door powerhouse EV's but it can't be direct competitors because like i said right off the bat the price difference.

If someone wants to spend 140-150k for an EV, they'd look at a plaid, the e-tron GT or a taycan. Those are comparable cars. And of course the plaid, overall, is a better buy for the money. The sapphire is in an entirely different price bracket.

I have nothing against the lucid air. I am an EV fanatic don't forget.

I just know good value when i see it. Tesla is just ahead of everyone else. Those are just facts. Maybe it'll change, maybe it won't. Maybe car makers will catch up in 2-5 years. Maybe they won't ever.

Right now tesla is still the leading EV car maker.

[x622]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Which BMW and which bentley? Compare 2 cars of similarities and we can start there.

The lucid air and the plaid are obviously "competitors", meaning 4 door powerhouse EV's but it can't be direct competitors because like i said right off the bat the price difference.

If someone wants to spend 140-150k for an EV, they'd look at a plaid, the e-tron GT or a taycan. Those are comparable cars. And of course the plaid, overall, is a better buy for the money. The sapphire is in an entirely different price bracket.

I have nothing against the lucid air. I am an EV fanatic don't forget.

I just know good value when i see it. Tesla is just ahead of everyone else. Those are just facts. Maybe it'll change, maybe it won't. Maybe car makers will catch up in 2-5 years. Maybe they won't ever.

Right now tesla is still the leading EV car maker.

I'm going to go on a limb here and potentially expose myself for being completely out of touch with people but... If you can afford a 130-150k toy, can you not afford a 250k toy? I wonder how many plaids are in garages with less than 3 cars. I'm not really sure who this is targeted at. Then again BMW made the XM and that certainly didn't target me either. I really like some of BMW's offerings and am excited to see what they do with electrics.


I choose the X5M for example, which is right around plaid money because of it's utilitarian nature. I then can hop in my M5 CS for fast sedan shenanigans. If I were to swap the M5 CS, it would be more logical to go for the Sapphire because the Plaid interior is a fucking disaster. Some people like the tesla plaid interior, but interior snobs who enjoy comfy and well put together stuff will protest. I'm one of those people, can't stand the steering wheel and some other stuff but it's cool how fast that it is.

I could almost consider a lucid except one small problem;



Unless this bullshit windshield stuff starts coming with porsche's electronic dimming panels, I don't want it. I don't want to be in an oven. I live in AZ and the last thing I want is to have is more sun in my face.




As for electric cars in general, I echo what other posters have said on this topic. We are marching towards homogenization with an unknown amount of regulation pertaining to consumption. I think brands will primarily be a style, ride, and feel as things begin to mature.

I think it will be an afterthought which car is .2 faster to 120 as other have mentioned due to likely incoming governmental oversight over vehicles.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Which BMW and which bentley? Compare 2 cars of similarities and we can start there.

Bentley Ghost and BMW M760i. Both use essentially the same engine, Bentley buys it from BMW. They also use the same transmission. Both are marketed to similar clientele. You can buy 2 M760i's for the price of one Ghost. Is the M760I a better car because it costs so much less?

The lucid air and the plaid are obviously "competitors", meaning 4 door powerhouse EV's but it can't be direct competitors because like i said right off the bat the price difference.

Like I said, besides that, what else? It's your premise, I'm just measuring whether or not it stands up. On the surface, it doesn't but I'd like to give you a chance here.

If someone wants to spend 140-150k for an EV, they'd look at a plaid, the e-tron GT or a taycan. Those are comparable cars. And of course the plaid, overall, is a better buy for the money. The sapphire is in an entirely different price bracket.

Better on one or perhaps 2 measures, but what about the rest of the measures? Don't play both sides of the argument please.

I just know good value when i see it.

Strange, the other brands and examples you provided seem to sell OK. Value like Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

Pabst blue ribbon is a good value if you want cheap fun. There are better beers out there. Are you a PBR guy? It's OK if you are, I have some in my fridge, but I don't tell anyone it's "the best beer, bar-none". Some actually like beer, some just want to get drunk.

The Taycan is outselling the model S even though it costs more. I wonder why?

Tesla is just ahead of everyone else. Those are just facts. Maybe it'll change, maybe it won't. Maybe car makers will catch up in 2-5 years. Maybe they won't ever.

Seems Lucid has passed it in power, acceleration, luxury, and range, and Lucid has done it in less time, but who cares about that stuff right?

Right now tesla is still the leading EV car maker.

Leading what? Volume?

McDonalds and Subway are the volume leading restaurants in their segments. That says little about their food, or their being without competition or challenge to what is the best food to eat.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by TupperBMW

But it’s so ugly

As long as I don’t have to own a Tesla, I’m fine with them existing. They are like Honda Accords now. And their speed doesn’t change that, they are just an afterthought meant to be ignored.

The Lucid Air feels way more special, but I would never throw away my money on that. I’d still take a V12 Ferrari or Lambo over that, every single time.

Ugly & no soul. Look, if all you want is to be the fastest 0-60 right now go buy one. There is still always someone faster. Have fun keeping up with the JOnes family down the block, tools.

Engine & exhaust noises, modding, etc are all part of the driving experience for a lot of us. I'm just not interested in owning an EV. That's not even factoring in the real parts of no charging stations etc local for a lot of us

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

If you want to nitpick on the styling, interior and build quality, then i guess it is what it is. I think the taycan looks ugly. Some people love it. Some people love the legendary ferrari F50 and i think that's one of the ugliest cars ever made.

This guy should be banned

[RM7]

Originally Posted by M3WC

I couldn't care less about 0-60 or straight line speed. I'd prefer a Cayman GT4 RS over a 911 Turbo S.

The real question is, should automakers follow the money by making cars for the 99% of people that just want to get from point A to B and straight line performance? Volume of sales will make this the lucrative business model for almost every automaker, just look at all the former “sports car” automakers shifting to SUVs for volume. Because what you care about in a car wont make money unless it gets more and more expensive/in reach of only those who can afford to pay ridiculous prices for it.