[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Right... but then do you have a complaint for the companies that took PPP loans that were forgiven and are now making record profits / margins just 2 years later? We all paid for that... and are NOW paying for in arrears in the form of inflation and will continue to do so for years... do you think this is for the betterment of society? Who is learning the lesson here? Sounds like all us for not being too bright and buying into the nonsense.

I don't want to get political so I'll keep this short and sweet. The government caused this. If they determined you weren't an essential business, you were done. The PPP allowed a lot of companies to stay in business that would have gone out otherwise due to the lockdowns. Were there abusers and fraud, yes. I can't deny that. But it saved many. Someone else paying a loan YOU took out on your own that you shouldn't have is different.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I don't want to get political so I'll keep this short and sweet. The government caused this. If they determined you weren't an essential business, you were done. The PPP allowed a lot of companies to stay in business that would have gone out otherwise do to the lockdowns. Were there abusers and fraud, yes. I can't deny that. But it saved many. Someone else paying a loan YOU took out on your own that you shouldn't have is different.

the way it ended was everyone was considered essential... forget the fraud... i am strictly referring to how the program was setup for business owners to take advantage of it legally...

as far as student loans... you don't think the government caused that?

my friend... that is exactly how tuition skyrocketed in the first place... the availability of loans that were backed by the govt for colleges to pump out as many worthless degrees as possible... it was setup effectively as a scam lol to promote a business which in fact should have been an educational institution

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by ASAP

the way it ended was everyone was considered essential... forget the fraud... i am strictly referring to how the program was setup for business owners to take advantage of it legally...

as far as student loans... you don't think the government caused that?

my friend... that is exactly how tuition skyrocketed in the first place... the availability of loans that were backed by the govt for colleges to pump out as many worthless degrees as possible... it was setup effectively as a scam lol to promote a business which in fact should have been an educational institution

BUT, people had choices. If you buy a BMW but can only afford a Toyota, that's your decision. If you chose to go to a high priced school, instead of a local city university, that's your choice. You knew going in.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

BUT, people had choices. If you buy a BMW but can only afford a Toyota, that's your decision. If you chose to go to a high priced school, instead of a local city university, that's your choice. You knew going in.

businesses and corporations had choices to save money for a downturn... there were only 2 sets of businesses legally shut down - those serving food but more specifically restaurants and those involved in tourist type attractions... and that was for a very short time... and assistance to them was fair... but again, that's not at all what ended up happening and we are all paying drastically for it... stock buybacks were somehow a more worthwhile spend than a little more liquidity

[EezyBeezy]

Build Back Better Plan

[wtwo3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Right... but then do you have a complaint for the companies that took PPP loans that were forgiven and are now making record profits / margins just 2 years later? We all paid for that... and are NOW paying for in arrears in the form of inflation and will continue to do so for years... do you think this is for the betterment of society? Who is learning the lesson here? Sounds like all us for not being too bright and buying into the nonsense.

I think that depends on the alternative. What would have things looked like in alternative scenarios? I think that's my whole point. I'm not advocating one way or another - just saying before we jump to a hardline approach, let's evaluate what's actually a good course of action, regardless of how we "feel".

Now things like abuse and corruption... that's a separate issue.

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by ASAP

businesses and corporations had choices to save money for a downturn... there were only 2 sets of businesses legally shut down - those serving food but more specifically restaurants and those involved in tourist type attractions... and that was for a very short time... and assistance to them was fair... but again, that's not at all what ended up happening and we are all paying drastically for it... stock buybacks were somehow a more worthwhile spend than a little more liquidity

Not all businesses are large public companies. Again, I don't want to make this political so let's agree to disagree.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

BUT, people had choices. If you buy a BMW but can only afford a Toyota, that's your decision. If you chose to go to a high priced school, instead of a local city university, that's your choice. You knew going in.

Yep, I know both sides of the coin. People who couldn't afford college, so didn't go, and also some who couldn't afford a name brand school, but went to that name brand school instead of community college. Then they graduated in basket weaving with $100k in debt and are mad they work at Starbucks.

I work at a University, and think education is important. The right education being most important. Many people enroll in classes only to drop out or change majors 10 times because not enough work experience is encouraged before college. Students are just told to major in whatever they "like to do" and we all know how that goes. I think the trades are an option that was overlooked for way too long by my generation (influenced by our parents) and we are all paying for it now.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by CTinline-six

Yep, I know both sides of the coin. People who couldn't afford college, so didn't go, and also some who couldn't afford a name brand school, but went to that name brand school instead of community college. Then they graduated in basket weaving with $100k in debt and are mad they work at Starbucks.

I work at a University, and think education is important. The right education being most important. Many people enroll in classes only to drop out or change majors 10 times because not enough work experience is encouraged before college. Students are just told to major in whatever they "like to do" and we all know how that goes. I think the trades are an option that was overlooked for way too long by my generation (influenced by our parents) and we are all paying for it now.

I guess that's the real question then... should a worthless college degree exist in college and be subsidized by the govt in the form of a loan... in other countries, education is nearly free, so it doesn't really matter... there is little risk outside of later not finding a job.

Here the risk is falling into lifelong debt and not having a job... again, this is only true in the US - remember that.

[CTinline-six]

Originally Posted by ASAP

I guess that's the real question then... should a worthless college degree exist in college and be subsidized by the govt in the form of a loan... in other countries, education is nearly free, so it doesn't really matter... there is little risk outside of later not finding a job.

Here the risk is falling into lifelong debt and not having a job... again, this is only true in the US - remember that.

In my opinion, no. That also stems from the narrative kids are fed these days, going back to when I graduated high school in 2008. The idea that you won't be successful unless you get at least a Bachelor's degree and preferably a Master's. Career planning should be an integrated part in high school education, even if it is just shadowing different fields to see if you enjoy them and want to pursue that. The trade schools do a similar thing for their first 2 years. Like I stated before, education is important, but only if it is right for that person and part of their plan. I dated a girl who seemed like she was always in school. She went for her Master's "just because" but really had no plan and was in a mountain of debt without any real direction.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by cmyx6go

I don't want to get political so I'll keep this short and sweet. The government caused this. If they determined you weren't an essential business, you were done. The PPP allowed a lot of companies to stay in business that would have gone out otherwise due to the lockdowns. Were there abusers and fraud, yes. I can't deny that. But it saved many. Someone else paying a loan YOU took out on your own that you shouldn't have is different.

This and I'll add that PPP was always designed as a grant. It was a loan only if businesses didn't meet the requirements for "forgiveness" as laid out upfront. The alternative was to pay unemployment to all the people laid off.

People can debate whether PPP was a good idea or not, which is fine. I understand and agree with portion of both sides of that argument. But it is apples and oranges to forgiving debt that was always intended to be repaid.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ASAP

businesses and corporations had choices to save money for a downturn... there were only 2 sets of businesses legally shut down - those serving food but more specifically restaurants and those involved in tourist type attractions... and that was for a very short time... and assistance to them was fair... but again, that's not at all what ended up happening and we are all paying drastically for it... stock buybacks were somehow a more worthwhile spend than a little more liquidity

The government forcing you to shut down is not really a downturn.

However forget all that. Let's assume you are 100% correct and PPP was a total scam period. So what? I don't see how that has any relevance on student loans? Because the government scammed us once we should go ahead and agree to let them scam us again? You could also believe that PPP was wrong AND loan forgiveness is also wrong.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

This and I'll add that PPP was always designed as a grant. It was a loan only if businesses didn't meet the requirements for "forgiveness" as laid out upfront. The alternative was to pay unemployment to all the people laid off.

People can debate whether PPP was a good idea or not, which is fine. I understand and agree with portion of both sides of that argument. But it is apples and oranges to forgiving debt that was always intended to be repaid.

virtually all businesses met the forgiveness doctrine because most businesses didn't suffer any sort of definable loss... it was completely gamed. Yes, there were businesses that truly needed the money and that was fine... otherwise, it was setup to be games and effectively rob taxpayer money. I literally spoke to folks giving this money out... oh and an origination fee for banks to do this... that was a wonderful idea.

Also... if you recall... they were intially classified as official loans and were later out of nowhere free money in the form of forgiveness... i think that was done so folks like me would put blinders on.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

The government forcing you to shut down is not really a downturn.

However forget all that. Let's assume you are 100% correct and PPP was a total scam period. So what? I don't see how that has any relevance on student loans? Because the government scammed us once we should go ahead and agree to let them scam us again? You could also believe that PPP was wrong AND loan forgiveness is also wrong.

govt forcing folks to shut down in most areas of the country was for literally 2 months lol... and in 2 industries that i named above...

as far as your other comments... u missed all of 2009, bailouts, cash for clunkers and other scam programs i could name... hence again... its hard to argue who gets what forgiven because in the end, someone someway gets scammed.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

virtually all businesses met the forgiveness doctrine because most businesses didn't suffer any sort of definable loss... it was completely gamed. Yes, there were businesses that truly needed the money and that was fine... otherwise, it was setup to be games and effectively rob taxpayer money. I literally spoke to folks giving this money out... oh and an origination fee for banks to do this... that was a wonderful idea.

Also... if you recall... they were intially classified as official loans and were later out of nowhere free money in the form of forgiveness... i think that was done so folks like me would put blinders on.

They were not forgiven out of nowhere. They were designed like that from Day 1. You are confusing PPP loans with EIDL loans. EIDL loans are being repaid and have not been forgiven.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by ASAP

govt forcing folks to shut down in most areas of the country was for literally 2 months lol... and in 2 industries that i named above...

as far as your other comments... u missed all of 2009, bailouts, cash for clunkers and other scam programs i could name... hence again... its hard to argue who gets what forgiven because in the end, someone someway gets scammed.

So I assume your answer is yes then? We should accept getting scammed because we've been scammed before.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

They were not forgiven out of nowhere. They were designed like that from Day 1. You are confusing PPP loans with EIDL loans. EIDL loans are being repaid and have not been forgiven.

Both... PPP loans were forgiven AS long as 60% of spend went toward payroll... so as long as no one was laid off and you kept employees on the roster you got $... except here is the deal - you didn't have to show any financial hardship... so even if your business broke records during Covid, you got free money and you are correct, it was designed exactly that way... the rest is an extra paycheck to the owner... and people are shocked by inflation lol.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

So I assume your answer is yes then? We should accept getting scammed because we've been scammed before.

that sounds like your argument, if nothing is forgiven... it sounds pretty fair to me

[cmyx6go]

Originally Posted by ASAP

govt forcing folks to shut down in most areas of the country was for literally 2 months lol... and in 2 industries that i named above...

as far as your other comments... u missed all of 2009, bailouts, cash for clunkers and other scam programs i could name... hence again... its hard to argue who gets what forgiven because in the end, someone someway gets scammed.

I don't know where you get only 2 industries. Restaurants, corner stores, nail salons, hair salons, funeral parlors, catering halls.... Only the big stores like supermarkets and home improvement were open. Mom and pops were shut down tight. If I remember correctly, I couldn't even go to the eye doctor and dentist. Realtors couldn't show houses.

EDIT - If YOU owned a business, do you think you could survive without any income for 2-3 months and still pay your bills and stay afloat?

[zx10guy]

To put this out there upfront, I paid back ever cent of the money I took out as loans when I went to college. When I graduated and had to find work during the 92 recession, I had to figure out what to do with the student loans I had. Working temp jobs wasn't going to cut it. So I read the the rules of the student loan programs. Of the three I had, two were subsidized and allowed me to defer payment with no interest accruing if I went back to school before the 6 months grace period ended as long as I was enrolled as half time or 6 credit hours. This would reset the grace period to allow me another 6 months after the end of the semester I was enrolled half time. I would continue to do this until I was able to fine gainful employment ie where my job was an actual career. At that point I paid back all of it. The enrollment at the community college was cheaper than the loan payments and I picked up extra knowledge as I was taking a bunch of programming classes.

All the ones screaming about wanting this handout are just plain lazy and won't do what it takes to pay the loans. Either do what I did, or suck it up and get a second job if you can't pay it with your first job. As others have stated, no one held a gun to your held to take these loans out. There was a study about what happened during the pause in student loan payments. Most of the people with student loans spent the money that would have gone to payments into frivolous things such as useless stuff or vacations.

The flip side of this is if the system is this broken, then put a stop to originating any new student loans. For me the solution is obvious to fix this mess. Take away the government backing and have the colleges/universities absorb any loan forgiveness. These institutions are awash in huge endowments/trust funds. Why should they be let off scott free when they contributed to the problem. It's on them to provide proper guidance to students as to career path and if it makes sense to pursue a particular degree given the employment picture after graduation.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by Popo

It shouldn’t.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Both... PPP loans were forgiven AS long as 60% of spend went toward payroll... so as long as no one was laid off and you kept employees on the roster you got $... except here is the deal - you didn't have to show any financial hardship... so even if your business broke records during Covid, you got free money and you are correct, it was designed exactly that way... the rest is an extra paycheck to the owner... and people are shocked by inflation lol.

The PPP program was not designed to require demonstrated financial hardship. Again, from Day 1 it was designed as a grant as long as criteria were met and a loan if they were not met. They called them “forgivable loans” and almost every company that applied for these did so with the expectation it would be a grant. They were not loans that were forgiven in a surprise move.

As I said, the wisdom of PPP is fair to debate. But student loans have always been designed to be repaid. That is not debatable and trying to justify forgiving loans after the fact by citing programs designed as grants or bailouts from the start is just a bad argument.