[eanto]

Originally Posted by M5FirstEdition

They don't have the breakdown of how many M2, M3 and M4 they sold?

if anyone knows, please answer this question i’m curious too 😭

[Kennethjk]

Originally Posted by m3cole

The massive amounts on EVs on dealer lots and production would dictate otherwise. BMW has a goal to have 50% of sales be EV by whatever year. That’s means coercing people into EVs that don’t necessarily want them. You can make something sensible for someone based on how you spin it. “Charging on road trips is great, every few hours you can jump out and stretch your legs for a bit!” Vs “your forced to stop for 30 minutes ever few hundred miles because you can’t fill the tank and keep trucking along”. There are sales goals for these companies when it comes to EVs, that’s why they offer extremely low interest rates for the time where in, 5 digit “incentives” and discounts, free charging. You don’t get that on regular ICE cars for a reason. Imagine if they gave you a gas card you could use for 2 whole years with the purchase do your new x5 m60, along with 15k off, vs a 90k electric car with no free charging and a minimal discount. The x5 m60 all the sudden seems to be a little more affordable and makes a little more sense.

That means enticing people to buy a car, not forcing them and yes incentives makes things a bit more affordable but that happens in many cars from all dealers and manufacturers when they need to unload cars, ICE and EVs. Right now it’s EVS. I guess you figure a sales person you can talk anyone into anything even if they don’t want or need it. People can spin things a million ways as you say.

I have gotten great deals on ICE BMWs over the 42 years I have owned them. They didn’t force me to buy them, I just thought it was a good deal and the dealer and BMW wanted to unload them.

All people need to do is some homework and they can figure out if something is good for them (of course some people don’t). But I have seen people buy specific ICE cars and regret them also.

As I said, EVs aren’t for everyone and yes some make a mistake by buying them but I believe the vast majority like them.

Personally I don’t buy a car because of a free gas card. I buy based of what I want and if there are added benefits great. I may be unusual as I also don’t buy a specific model based on price. I determine what car I like and then find a good price. I know people who shop cars strictly on price and the manufacture doesn’t matter, didn’t strokes for different folks.

BTW I don’t think a new EV owner should get be free electrons. Just takes up charger slots from people who really need it and have no other choice.

All my .02

[wesleyan92]

Originally Posted by eanto

if anyone knows, please answer this question i’m curious too 😭

This question is asked after every quarterly report comes out and the answer is always a blank. The pure M breakout is not provided.

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by m3cole

Hurts to see BMW throwing electric cars down peoples throats. After working in the dealership for over a year from 2022-2023 the shift to electric car production is crazy. So many electric cars piling up on lots and extreme incentives to sell is the only thing fueling the growth. Long live ICE cars 🏎️

Gas cars have been heavily discounted too, and I’m ok with both

Looks like the 3er is in trouble

[yousefnjr]

Originally Posted by AndreiPopescu

Here before people start to shit on the XM for having no sales.

The XM sold more in 2023 alone than the Urus has since 2018 till now

To be fair the urus is like 2x the price minimum

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by bavarianboar

Agree 100%.

I personally never jumped on the bandwagon of Tesla, I never test drove it either until my buddy bought one and I could borrow it (1000 miles on it), for a week. This was 7-8 years after they started selling a car.

Mind you I was not opposed to electric, I test drove the i3 one month after it first showed up at my go to dealership back in those days.

Marketing swooned the buyers to Tesla and there were people at every block in the city or suburb justifying their Tesla purchases. Lot of Prius and budget car owners suddenly thought they were buying a quality “sports” electric car at a minor price bump. It was a short lived range advantage (as you correctly highlight), that had disappeared with leveled battery tech.

Cyber truck exposes what Tesla does in automotive, and the endless quality issues of all other models that people choose to ignore because they think Tesla is some luxury brand and are filled with confirmation bias.

It’s astonishing at times these things are still running but the used market has been suffering a bit.

Before I get bashed : My opinion is my own, based on a fairly large circle of friends, colleagues, and family mostly fed up with Tesla vehicles, some on the fence and others looking for alternatives at their first opportunity.

Congrats BMW the numbers speak for themselves, 3 series sales are eaten into though, quite clear.

I've driven the all electric BMWs (including the i4 and i5) the Hybrid XM, and the Model Y and recently updated Tesla 3. As an 11 time BMW owner, I've got to say, the Teslas handle better and are faster.

I still don't want to own an electric, but if I had to, I wouldn't pick the BMW.

[darylp310]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I've driven the all electric BMWs (including the i4 and i5) the Hybrid XM, and the Model Y and recently updated Tesla 3. As an 11 time BMW owner, I've got to say, the Teslas handle better and are faster.

I still don't want to own an electric, but if I had to, I wouldn't pick the BMW.

I think you are correct for sporty/racing enthusiasts. Teslas ride rough and rattle inside but they are super fast and handle well. But for luxury/comfort, you can't beat the iX or i7. BMW EVs are aiming more for the plushiness and comfort markets than racing. I think we'll have to wait for the 1341 HP BMW M EV to squarely beat Tesla for racing: https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a6...-world-beater/

[Gautam]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I've driven the all electric BMWs (including the i4 and i5) the Hybrid XM, and the Model Y and recently updated Tesla 3. As an 11 time BMW owner, I've got to say, the Teslas handle better and are faster.

I still don't want to own an electric, but if I had to, I wouldn't pick the BMW.

I haven't driven as many from either brand as you, but enough to confirm that you're right, Tesla's drivetrains are far superior to BMW's, especially taking price into account. But my conclusion is the opposite. The comfort, fit and finish, NVH and feature set are so far ahead in BMW that I'd be willing to sacrifice the driving dynamics of a Tesla without question.

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by Gautam

I haven't driven as many from either brand as you, but enough to confirm that you're right, Tesla's drivetrains are far superior to BMW's, especially taking price into account. But my conclusion is the opposite. The comfort, fit and finish, NVH and feature set are so far ahead in BMW that I'd be willing to sacrifice the driving dynamics of a Tesla without question.

I could see your point here, makes sense any day! Btw, Gautam, did you have a 550i or it was another forum member?

Another thought - I have not owned a Tesla to really say this affirmatively, cos I can only control my own driving style. I do hear (from many) that the tires on model 3 are shot in about 15k miles.

Working in automotive and being a racing enthusiast, it makes me think the tire wear could be much higher on the Teslas that you do get better handling but (maybe) the way the car is setup, it comes at a cost.

And ofcourse, a little physics angle to it, the 50/50 weight distribution isn’t an issue on teslas when the floor / chassis is packed with cells driving the center of mass way to the bottom. It was just common sense, but well implemented by Team Musk as the ICE front or rear placement was not a constraint.

[bavarianboar]

Originally Posted by M2PDX

I've driven the all electric BMWs (including the i4 and i5) the Hybrid XM, and the Model Y and recently updated Tesla 3. As an 11 time BMW owner, I've got to say, the Teslas handle better and are faster.

I still don't want to own an electric, but if I had to, I wouldn't pick the BMW.

I have had a different experience in handling of the car from overall driving aspect.

The regen braking drives me nuts for handling, when I let go off the acceleration taking a curve or turning - You can’t just throw the car into the curve let it coast momentarily (if you know what I am referring to). Not natural let alone the one foot driving (some) people feel so proud about with EVs (that’s a go cart then!). Not my cup of tea unfortunately. Yes, I can turn regen off too.

Faster yes, we can’t compare EVs with ICE. And perhaps for the same price range a model 3 performance is faster than an iX, or i4 M50 so green apples to red apples comparison I’d say

BMW did not need to sell the EV acceleration to customers, Tesla made that their USP being a new kid on the block with new technology!

[feeling]

Originally Posted by AndreiPopescu

In 2023 Lamborghini sold 1761 urus' worldwide. For the XM, 2315 was just US sales. US would have about 25% market share worldwide which means 9000-10000 XMs were sold worldwide in 2023.

This is wrong, it was predicted the US would have 26% share before launch, it ended up being massively wrong. The US and Germany were the only ones that bought any.







The reality :

[mb67]

Huh, interesting: I'm one of the 176 people who ordered/bought a new Z4 in the second quarter...

[Matthi]

Originally Posted by AndreiPopescu

In 2023 lamborghini sold 1761 urus' worldwide. For the XM, 2315 was just US sales. US would have about 25% market share worldwide which means 9000-10000 XMs were sold worldwide in 2023. This means that in its first year alone XM outsold urus worldwide even though they have been making the urus since 2018.

It took Mercedes 10 years to sell more G wagon units per year than what BMW did for XM sales in the US in their first year.

Annual XM sales are also higher than Porsche cayenne turbo GT, Aston martin DBX, Ferrari purosangue, Audi RSQ8, Maserati levante trofeo, etc etc.

Are you just making up random numbers?

Round about two thirds of Lamborghini sales are Urus. In 2023 they sold 10k cars worldwide so roughly 6-7K Urus. In the US they sold 3k cars in 2023 so roughly 2k Urus which is pretty much even with the XM.

And let's not even begin with the G-Wagon. Mercedes sold 10.023 G-Wagons in the US last year. In fact it takes them less than a quarter to sell the same amount of G-Wagons as BMW sells XM in an entire year.

That's not even considering that the G-Wagon and Urus have significant waiting times and sell at MSRP while the XM is heavily discounted. It is flop and will be the fastest depreciating BMW maybe ever.

I'm happy you like your XM but why throw around these fake numbers?

[turboI]

anyone know about China EV?

[6SPDG82]

I don’t see this as good news for BMW. Look at 3 series, X5 sales. They are down and EV’s will have a demand ceiling given their compromises, terrible residuals/resale values, and overall lack of infrastructure.

The Mini sales are horrendous.

[AndreiPopescu]

Originally Posted by Matthi

Are you just making up random numbers?

Round about two thirds of Lamborghini sales are Urus. In 2023 they sold 10k cars worldwide so roughly 6-7K Urus. In the US they sold 3k cars in 2023 so roughly 2k Urus which is pretty much even with the XM.

And let's not even begin with the G-Wagon. Mercedes sold 10.023 G-Wagons in the US last year. In fact it takes them less than a quarter to sell the same amount of G-Wagons as BMW sells XM in an entire year.

That's not even considering that the G-Wagon and Urus have significant waiting times and sell at MSRP while the XM is heavily discounted. It is flop and will be the fastest depreciating BMW maybe ever.

I'm happy you like your XM but why throw around these fake numbers?

" the release of the Urus model in 2018 impacted the performance of these other models. In 2019, the Urus model became Lamborghini's best-seller, with some 5,000 units of the Urus delivered that year compared to around 2,100 Huracáns, and 1,100 Aventadors. Total deliveries decreased in 2020 but immediately recovered between 2021 and 2023, reaching 6,100 Urus and 4,000 Huracáns. "


So they sold 6100 Urus units in 3 years, so about 2000 per year. The XM sold more units in the US alone in 2023. BMW sold over 4500 XMs in Q1 2023 alone

[Car-Addicted]

Maybe BMW needs to reintroduce the 2020 M3 and M4 to take advantage of the nostalgia trend? It worked for Ford with the Bronco? Blue prints must be around here somewhere?

[JK479]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

This was always going to be the case. Electric range only takes you so far until other manufacturers come out with car that offer a lot more. Range anxiety continues to be a consideration, but it's not that big of a factor anymore. I don't see Tesla evolving their vehicles that much to offer better build and quality, at least not to the level of the BMW/Audi/Mercedes, for example, but the German OEM's will continue to evolve with battery tech and add the ability to use Tesla chargers, there is more of a compelling case to buy German over a relatively poor quality Tesla with more range.

Just my $0.02.

Appreciate your throuhhts- but Tesla just revived its model 3 and it’s up to a standard close to a three series.
Cybertruck though is a huge mess. Not sure there is anything that can help that truck.

[WWM3]

Originally Posted by jmack123

Looks like people love the new X2 redesign - up 934% YoY.

Strong results for electric lineup - 15% of U.S. sales - good to see.

Re: X2. I wonder if it’s timing, an old model being put out to pasture and a new one getting launched.

[LuisBoston]

IX is a fantastic road trip car.

Maybe not for barnstorming cross the country in record time pissing in a water bottle, but it’s a hyper-comfortable, fast highway cruiser which eats up miles. Stopping 1-2 times briefly every 3-4 hours for a bio-break/snack/leg stretch is well worth it on a 600-900 mile trip.

[Matthi]

Originally Posted by AndreiPopescu

" the release of the Urus model in 2018 impacted the performance of these other models. In 2019, the Urus model became Lamborghini's best-seller, with some 5,000 units of the Urus delivered that year compared to around 2,100 Huracáns, and 1,100 Aventadors. Total deliveries decreased in 2020 but immediately recovered between 2021 and 2023, reaching 6,100 Urus and 4,000 Huracáns. "


So they sold 6100 Urus units in 3 years, so about 2000 per year. The XM sold more units in the US alone in 2023. BMW sold over 4500 XMs in Q1 2023 alone

You are reading it wrong. Sales REACHED 6.100 Urus in 2023. That is just for that one year. In the last three years they sold 16.475 so that is 5.500 per year on average.

That is for a car that's starting at 240k$. I'm not going to post global G-Wagon numbers cause those are dwarfing XM sales even more.

[BMWCCA1]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Maybe BMW needs to reintroduce the 2020 M3 and M4 to take advantage of the nostalgia trend? It worked for Ford with the Bronco? Blue prints must be around here somewhere?

Why? Nostalgia should covers models from the past (more than 4-years old, for sure) that have increased in interest and value for those who couldn't or didn't purchase them when they had the chance. That begs the E30 M3!

And all this consternation about the decline in 3-series sales ignores the fact that the 3-series used to cover 2dr, 4dr, and convertibles. There were no 4-series of any kind and certainly no 4-dr 4-series, and the M3 was originally a 2-door-only car until sometime during the E36 years when BMW started cramming 4-dr M3s down the market's throat with silly hoops on the trunk.

While there is no question that the car market has tilted to SUV and away from conventional sedans, BMW's proliferation under the 4-series badge certainly hasn't helped the 3-series numbers. The discussion of the various 2-series variants and their all being larger than the original 3-series is saved for another day.