[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by RobM2

Sounds like the decision is whether you want a proper M car or a fast luxury car.

I see that the complete opposite.
A proper M car is a fast car, the bench mark for performance to which all others are measured too.
If the the manual is slower than other, less calibre of a car, then it’s the manual that is no longer a true M car.
An M car should be the pinnacle, NOT average speed because it’s holding onto old tech. That is the opposite to M.
If you enjoy M and love manuals fine, enjoy!
But you can’t say that the auto is not a true M. It’s holds the m values and qualities more so than the manual.
Just my opinion

[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

I drove my manual Z06 today for 1.5 hours each way to/from a car show. Yes, manuals are a bit more engaging, but after pulling it back in my garage, I had my fill of driving a manual today.

Every morning and afternoon there is 2.5 mi of curves and hills during my commute where I hit the M2 button and use the paddles. It's just as "engaging" as driving my manual Z06.

I don't care which one is faster, nor do I care who clocked what times around what track with what transmission. I only care about what I like to drive on a daily basis.

100% paddles are fun!
Not feeling I miss anything by not using my left foot as well.
I feel the left foot action just slows me down. Where the paddles enable me to skip through the gears like an F1 car!

[BgsDks]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

Except it wasn't...
And the joke goes over your head not under. If you're gonna try to troll at least do it right 🤡

Troll? Ok, my car has entered production this week. Maybe by the time it is delivered, you will have made your life changing decision.

[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Getting outrun by a GTI in a G87 6MT is a skill issue, not a car issue. ZF8 and 6MT post identical in-gear acceleration, with a slight edge to 6MT on the top end due to less parasitic loss. Randy posted a faster lap time in a G80 6MT vs. ZF8 comp. Figure.

Fake news.
Ain’t no way a car with same power, weight, tires can be faster in manual around a track, unless that’s the result the tester wanted.
Think about it, exact same car, but every shift (pause in putting power down) is going to be 1/2 or a 1/3 of a second slower in manual. Fact.
Then times that by the amount of shifts required per lap. Simple maths..
But if you prefer manual because that’s how you like to drive, fine.
But don’t try and tell me a manual is faster around a track because I can’t agree to that.

[curtdragon]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

Fake news.
Ain’t no way a car with same power, weight, tires can be faster in manual around a track, unless that’s the result the tester wanted.
Think about it, exact same car, but every shift (pause in putting power down) is going to be 1/2 or a 1/3 of a second slower in manual. Fact.
Then times that by the amount of shifts required per lap. Simple maths..
But if you prefer manual because that’s how you like to drive, fine.
But don’t try and tell me a manual is faster around a track because I can’t agree to that.

I'd actually like to see the numbers on a roll race. I'm thinking 90% of the time difference is from the start. If I could actually confirm the red line on a stock manual vs auto it might point to the manual being higher so it can stay on power even with shift drops.
For a circuit track I can see shifts not making a huge difference if you can keep it in gear longer or you're letting the computer shift. Too many factors to just say yes or no on that one.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by c1pher

I love the auto in my M2. It really suits the car and depending on which mode you’re in can change its personality with a press of a button. The auto also gives you additional capabilities in transmission tuning. The car always seems to be in the right gear but is also responsive enough if you want to use the paddles too.

I agree… Having the M DCT, when you put it in “sport plus” it’s absolutely nasty

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

Fake news.
Ain’t no way a car with same power, weight, tires can be faster in manual around a track, unless that’s the result the tester wanted.
Think about it, exact same car, but every shift (pause in putting power down) is going to be 1/2 or a 1/3 of a second slower in manual. Fact.
Then times that by the amount of shifts required per lap. Simple maths..
But if you prefer manual because that’s how you like to drive, fine.
But don’t try and tell me a manual is faster around a track because I can’t agree to that.

In-gear acceleration is an objective figure. C&D or Sporauto has one I believe.
6MT requires less gear changes. You only need 3-5 in most tracks. You haven't tracked much have you?

[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

In-gear acceleration is an objective figure. C&D or Sporauto has one I believe.
6MT requires less gear changes. You only need 3-5 in most tracks. You haven't tracked much have you?

https://youtu.be/g6HSs_Y2y1o?si=msJ3KZj7CCjIsioT

I have tracked plenty thanks mate.
Further more, you havmt addressed the math above (0.5 second changes vs 0.1 second changes multiplied the total amount of changes required into amd out of corners).
Additionally, if manuals are faster around a track , why does every single super car/ hyper car that is designed and dedicated to track performance have an automated transmission? None are manual, like ZERO!
You don’t read much do you?

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

I have tracked plenty thanks mate.
Further more, you havmt addressed the math above (0.5 second changes vs 0.1 second changes multiplied the total amount of changes required into amd out of corners).
Additionally, if manuals are faster around a track , why does every single super car/ hyper car that is designed and dedicated to track performance have an automated transmission? None are manual, like ZERO!
You don’t read much do you?

Your points are irrelevant.

- We're comparing auto vs. manual variants of an otherwise same car. Once you bring in different makes & engine layouts, assumptions no longer stand.
- Hypercars/supercars have DCT, not ZF8. "Automated" is the only commonality they share.
- By demonstrating MT could be faster on certain occasions, I already proved my point there is no material difference. Your point was there is, and I only needed to prove that there isn't.

[ednir98]

Originally Posted by c1pher

And with the auto, if you like shifting, you still can.

Clicking a button is not shifting same way clicking the "start" button on my microwave is not cooking.

[T-Rexx]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Your points are irrelevant.

- We're comparing auto vs. manual variants of an otherwise same car. Once you bring in different makes & engine layouts, assumptions no longer stand.
- Hypercars/supercars have DCT, not ZF8. "Automated" is the only commonality they share.
- By demonstrating MT could be faster on certain occasions, I already proved my point there is no material difference. Your point was there is, and I only needed to prove that there isn't.

Not irrelevant, you have just not understood them.

I am am not comparing the M2 to any other car like you claim.
What I am saying is when super car manufacturers set out to build a car commitrd to track performance NONE of them build it with a manual, ZERO.
So the point of different models, drive trains, or engine location has nothing to do with it. The point being is the hardware chosen to build the fastest car possible.
So I am arguing the concept that automated box’s are chosen due to their ability for the car to track faster.

And while they are DCT and not an auto, I think that this is a massive stretch to use that as a basis to say the point has no merit.
First - the ZF8 ain’t no slush box auto of old. It shifts almost as fast as a DCT and has additional strength and won’t require updating clutch packs
Second - The core function that make DCT’s faster around a track than a manual (evidenced by every super car manufacturer on earth) is their quick gear changes, which the ZF8 does. So to discount the ZF8 due to not being a DCT is like I said above, a massive stretch. The ZF8 has similar gear change times to a DTC (in that it has minimal interruption to putting power to the wheels), and therefore has similar track time advantages.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

Not irrelevant, you have just not understood them.

I am am not comparing the M2 to any other car like you claim.
What I am saying is when super car manufacturers set out to build a car commitrd to track performance NONE of them build it with a manual, ZERO.
So the point of different models, drive trains, or engine location has nothing to do with it. The point being is the hardware chosen to build the fastest car possible.
So I am arguing the concept that automated box’s are chosen due to their ability for the car to track faster.

And while they are DCT and not an auto, I think that this is a massive stretch to use that as a basis to say the point has no merit.
First - the ZF8 ain’t no slush box auto of old. It shifts almost as fast as a DCT and has additional strength and won’t require updating clutch packs
Second - The core function that make DCT’s faster around a track than a manual (evidenced by every super car manufacturer on earth) is their quick gear changes, which the ZF8 does. So to discount the ZF8 due to not being a DCT is like I said above, a massive stretch. The ZF8 has similar gear change times to a DTC (in that it has minimal interruption to putting power to the wheels), and therefore has similar track time advantages.

You are confusing performance of an element with performance of a whole car. I've established that performance difference between either variant of G8x is immaterial evidenced by the above test. Your allegations are all hypotheticals regarding elements of a car, none about the performance as a whole. Does it even matter when both cars post lap times within 1 second of each other? Note that Randy used ZF8 Comp with 510ps and still ran faster in 6MT.

If ZF8 were materially similar to DCT, supercar manufacturers would have broadly adopted it. Aston Martin ditched it for DCT, so did Bentley despite their "luxury" oriented approach and the front-engine layout of the cars. Why is that?

[iifymbro]

after driving only manuals the last 15 years the only manual I'm interested in owning anymore is a nice Porsche one, but ultimately it's a personal call.

[NewToM]

I love my manual. Happy everyone for the most part seems happy with their decision. If they didn’t have a stick I would have gone with a different car.

[ContactPatch]

Manual transmissions are stolen much less often than automatics, seems the young thieves don't know how to drive them.

[minn19]

Two beaten too death/mind numbing arguments. Proper M car and manual vs auto?

I like my 6MT, but if the DCT from the F8X was available, I would’ve got that. The usual get what you like and who cares what others think.

I agree with a previous poster in this thread, both transmissions have flaws, the DCT for me would’ve been the perfect blend of both IMO.

[curtdragon]

Originally Posted by minn19

Two beaten too death/mind numbing arguments. Proper M car and manual vs auto?

I like my 6MT, but if the DCT from the F8X was available, I would’ve got that. The usual get what you like and who cares what others think.

I agree with a previous poster in this thread, both transmissions have flaws, the DCT for me would’ve been the perfect blend of both IMO.

Yeah, so when I posted it, it wasn’t about which one was better. And if you read my original comment, it was more to see those The opinions of those who actually have an M2 and bought an auto or manual and usually get the opposite and are disappointed or wish they had gotten the opposite. I should’ve known that it would hurt into a hole which one is better in general debate and that’s not what my intention was. i’m sure there’s a definitive answer in terms of actual measurable factors and the answer is probably auto because you could actually measure that but in some cases, it could be manual for different types of tracks, but the majority of the manual people are saying because it feels better and you can do stuff and you can do stuff with auto. It’s just a different feeling but again my question was more like oh I don’t like the rubbery feeling or any other aspect that may not have been covered that would deter them from getting an auto or manual.
I'm still undecided but at the end of the day I don't think I'll have a problem with either. I enjoyed my DCT S4, I've driven an M240 and I loved the manual in my BRZ.

[JABCAT]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

In-gear acceleration is an objective figure. C&D or Sporauto has one I believe.
6MT requires less gear changes. You only need 3-5 in most tracks. You haven't tracked much have you?

Considering none of us are Randy, his times are irrelevant. That's like me saying my Z07-equipped Z06 does 7.22.68 around Nurburgring because Jim Mero recorded that record time. Or it does 2.6 0-60 mph because that's what the manufacturer claims. None of it matters because I haven't recorded those times.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

Yeah, so when I posted it, it wasn’t about which one was better. And if you read my original comment, it was more to see those The opinions of those who actually have an M2 and bought an auto or manual and usually get the opposite and are disappointed or wish they had gotten the opposite. I should’ve known that it would hurt into a hole which one is better in general debate and that’s not what my intention was. i’m sure there’s a definitive answer in terms of actual measurable factors and the answer is probably auto because you could actually measure that but in some cases, it could be manual for different types of tracks, but the majority of the manual people are saying because it feels better and you can do stuff and you can do stuff with auto. It’s just a different feeling but again my question was more like oh I don’t like the rubbery feeling or any other aspect that may not have been covered that would deter them from getting an auto or manual.
I'm still undecided but at the end of the day I don't think I'll have a problem with either. I enjoyed my DCT S4, I've driven an M240 and I loved the manual in my BRZ.

My post wasn’t directed at you, it’s just what these types of threads always end up devolving to.

There are a lot of threads and a recent, quite large one on MT feel. I wanted a MT more this go around, but I’m not one of those annoying MT or nothing “purists.” BMWs manuals are pretty rubbery and are on the lower end of available MTs IMO compared to the competition (a lot of others feel this way as well). I still got one as I’ve had a lot of ZF8 equipped cars (have one in the garage next to the M2 in the X5 M60i). They are great transmissions and the S58 really wakes up with them equipped in the M2. I just find them a bit boring and really miss the DCTs from the F8X gen. Hence why I would’ve went DCT over either current G87 choice.

I almost got a used M2CS with a DCT, but I had a hard time spending 90k ish on a used car without a factory warranty. Plus, I like the interior better in G87, especially the sofa seats.

[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

I have tracked plenty thanks mate.
Further more, you havmt addressed the math above (0.5 second changes vs 0.1 second changes multiplied the total amount of changes required into amd out of corners).
Additionally, if manuals are faster around a track , why does every single super car/ hyper car that is designed and dedicated to track performance have an automated transmission? None are manual, like ZERO!
You don’t read much do you?

You are conflating MT va Auto being a manufacturing choice based on which is faster.

That is not the equation. The equation is close ratio gears and there isn't a real life shift pattern that makes sense for a 7 speed or greater for a human to shift. There is also the problem of pressure plate clamping force to withstand the HP and torque at greater than 600hp and 600 lb-ft of torque.

You start needing dual mass flywheels and multiplate clutches and things tend to burn up under really high load. One reason why the S58 cars have limited HP and torque figures.

If you want the fastest M don't buy the MT; buy xDrive Auto. But that doesn't equal fun

I'm not worried about being smoked by someone in an X3/M. But then I still have my i4 M50 and up to 130 mph it's a beast. But it's different car for a different experience.

People that want the MT (like me will buy it).
People that want the ZF and "no lift shifts" will but it.

They serve most of the same purpose but have a different feel.

[BradMX5]

Originally Posted by T-Rexx

What I am saying is when super car manufacturers set out to build a car commitrd to track performance NONE of them build it with a manual, ZERO.

There are definitely super cars with a manual. Not many but there are a handful out there...

Koenigsegg Pagani and Hennessey are a few

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by BradMX5

There are definitely super cars with a manual. Not many but there are a handful out there...

Koenigsegg Pagani and Hennessey are a few

I think the Egg stopped making manuals a few years back? Hennessey probably still makes one, so you are factually correct. They are also batshit crazy, so I'm not sure it's *wise* that they do so. The manual Venom is probably less performant than the automated one.