[Zybane]

God I hate these cars that become trendy then they jack the prices sky high. Like what happened with Jeep and $80K Wranglers, they got the door shut hard on them and they are seriously feeling the pain for being greedy. I hope the same happens to Porsche and the fad crowd.

Porsche makes ridiculous profits on their cars, the highest in the industry. They are good cars but over-rated and over-priced. I remember in the 90's when Porsche had massive discounts as they couldn't move them.

[Montaver]

The G87 is crazy good value for what you get, a Carrera T is not. I owned two GT4’s and sold them for basically what I paid. I lost significant money on both my G87 and F87 M2. Porsches need very few mods as well, which again saves you at resale. My point being with Porsche the price of entry is high, but you don’t really lose money if you buy the right car. I think a Carerra T is an awesome bit of kit, but it won’t hold its value like a GT Porsche and that is the main reason I wouldn’t buy one. I’d rather spend $200k get a 991.2 GT3 and know I’ll get my money back. The other point is BMW make fantastic turbo engines, if you want a turbo experience you can get that here. What Porsche still make is naturally aspirated engines, and that’s where the real delta is.

[MineralGreyMetallic]

That's a really great point I forgot about.

When I first started considering Porsche it was common in the forums that people would get 15%+ discounts.

It has completely swung the other way. Someone already said it, but perhaps they eventually become an exotic brand and artificially constrain supply. I'm not sure how anyone could ever be convinced to spend exotic-level money on a Porsche, but it's already happening with the RS cars.

Then again, if you actually intend to track the car and you have the budget, the GT RS cars are sort of unicorns in that way from what I understand. There is nothing else like them on the market.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

150k buys you:

a V10 R8 (in coupe or spyder!)

an AMG GT R (again in coupe or roadster!)

an array of wonderful NA2 NSXs

a ZR1 vette

almost any M car your heart desires

and you would choose a... *checks notes* garden variety, 350 hp, every dentist has a better one 911? alright brother, your money!

All of these cars are without question better than a non-GT 911, but one major issue for me is that they only come in automatic. I had an allocation for one of the last V10 R8’s and passed it up for my 911 because I realized I’d get bored of the transmission. Rowing gears with a gearbox as good as Porsche puts out is bliss!

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by MineralGreyMetallic

Has Porsche always been like this, or is this mostly a recent phenomenon?

Truly disappointing.

No. I believe this started happening as dealerships got absorbed into larger chains that represent multiple marques. So now a sales rep who works at a Chevy dealer gets a promotion to work at the Porsche dealer and they apply all the same strategies across the board. This is my ninth Porsche. I remember buying my car, and it was a straightforward transaction after agreeing on price. I could literally walk in to the dealer and in 30 minutes or less drive away in my new car. Now forget it and it’s a painful experience basically doing battle. For most of us, these are our dream cars so, at least for me, it has really made it less than desirable.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4

Owning a manual is becoming the car equivalent of tik tok influencers. What used to be entry level spec is now commanding big $$ as the enthusiasts are willing to pay. Porsche is going to milk this for all it’s worth and they sure are with the pricing. Hopefully BMW doesn’t follow the trend of pricy manual options.

This 911T is also being discussed in the Z4 section with equal disgust for the pricing lol. Seems a lot of people are talking about the car…..if no one cares about it there wouldn’t be the attention it’s received.

One thing no one is talking about is that you can only accelerate so fast with a manual. So this actually takes pressure off Porsche to compete with the fastest cars because you’re buying an experience. Now that’s not all bad but if you notice, they didn’t really put any more power into the base 911. And if you want it to be faster you need the PDK. In some sense, why buy a GT3 manual? It doesn’t accelerate to 60 any faster. And where it’s faster than a base 911, you won’t experience that unless you’re on a track. And how many people will do that?

[akhbhaat]

Like most long-time BMW owners, I always assumed Porsche was a natural step-up or endgame, so I eventually picked up a 991 C2S followed by a 997 C2S (in that order, so you can get some sense for what I was looking for).

Brutal honesty: those two were the most disappointing “sports cars” I’ve ever owned. "Disappointing" is a careful choice, because on balance they were pretty good cars. They were decent to drive and actually did a lot of things well. However, when you hear people call them “perfect” or “amazing” for years, you start to build a mental model of what that means to you...and what I personally wanted/expected out of the 911 is only found in the GT3. No Carrera (or Turbo) model has it.

Fortunately, I went about it in a way that minimized any regrets: I scratched an itch, learned a lot, and it cost me very little. If haven’t spent a lot of time in a 911 before, I strongly suggest you buy a depreciated 991 or 997 in a “good enough” spec for ~$60k and drive that for a year before you throw $160k USD (and several months hunting allocations) at something that seems “perfect.” Porsche’s development process tends to be very incremental so by picking any one of them you will actually get a pretty good sense for how any remotely adjacent generation of the same model drives (I’m always amused when Porsche nutters start talking about the 991+ as some sort of bloated GT/luxury car while claiming that the 997 is a “raw sports car”; they’re actually far more similar than they are different).

That said: in contrast to the Carreras, I really liked the GT4 I had for a couple years. Don’t have one now because frankly it’s a very limited-use car (if you aren’t regularly tracking it or can’t easily get to very open back roads, it’s wasted) but under the right circumstances I would buy another. I’d bet most people lusting after a Carrera T would actually be happier in a Cayman GTS, GT4, or Lotus Emira. Especially if we cut out the prestige chasers (the silly "911" badge the Carreras all have now...).

[beren]

Porsche has always had a smattering of 911 and 718 models with manuals. I had a 2016 Boxster 6 speed manual, but decided to go with the M2 because it was less than half the cost of the 718 I wanted (the 718 GTS 4.0).

[RMB]

Originally Posted by akhbhaat

Like most long-time BMW owners, I always assumed Porsche was a natural step-up or endgame, so I eventually picked up a 991 C2S followed by a 997 C2S (in that order, so you can get some sense for what I was looking for).

Brutal honesty: those two were the most disappointing “sports cars” I’ve ever owned. "Disappointing" is a careful choice, because on balance they were pretty good cars. They were decent to drive and actually did a lot of things well. However, when you hear people call them “perfect” or “amazing” for years, you start to build a mental model of what that means to you...and what I personally wanted/expected out of the 911 is only found in the GT3. No Carrera (or Turbo) model has it.

Fortunately, I went about it in a way that minimized any regrets: I scratched an itch, learned a lot, and it cost me very little. If haven’t spent a lot of time in a 911 before, I strongly suggest you buy a depreciated 991 or 997 in a “good enough” spec for ~$60k and drive that for a year before you throw $160k USD (and several months hunting allocations) at something that seems “perfect.” Porsche’s development process tends to be very incremental so by picking any one of them you will actually get a pretty good sense for how any remotely adjacent generation of the same model drives (I’m always amused when Porsche nutters start talking about the 991+ as some sort of bloated GT/luxury car while claiming that the 997 is a “raw sports car”; they’re actually far more similar than they are different).

That said: in contrast to the Carreras, I really liked the GT4 I [...]

That was a great analysis and what you recommended makes perfect sense. I really enjoyed your perspective. The GT4 I had was good value at 95k, but I don’t see the value in the base or T at it’s current price point.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by RMB

That was a great analysis and what you recommended makes perfect sense. I really enjoyed your perspective. The GT4 I had was good value at 95k, but I don’t see the value in the base or T at it’s current price point.

TBF, I think the Cabriolet version is basically unique now. BMW doesn't a real equivalent to the 911 T convertible. The Z4M is probably as close as you can get in BMW's lineup.

So I think for a certain person who wants a MT luxury apex-carving/roadster hybrid, the 911 T Cabrio probably is a good value. In the sense that there aren't any other real options, I mean.

[RMB]

Originally Posted by Squidget

TBF, I think the Cabriolet version is basically unique now. BMW doesn't a real equivalent to the 911 T convertible. The Z4M is probably as close as you can get in BMW's lineup.

So I think for a certain person who wants a MT luxury apex-carving/roadster hybrid, the 911 T Cabrio probably is a good value. In the sense that there aren't any other real options, I mean.

I always thought the ethos of the T version was to go as light weight and simple as possible. I don’t understand why carbon ceramics aren’t offered anymore on the T and having mandatory rear seats also adds weight and defeats the purpose. With the cabriolet you HAVE to HAVE rear seats (more weight and is a heavier cabriolet).

This is simply my humble opinion, but Porsche is a company that sells cars just like others. When the 981 left NA and the 718 came out only with turbo engines, everyone complained that they missed the flat 6 NA. Then the GTS went 2.5T to 4.0 NA, let alone GT4 and Spyder always were. Now Porsche is saying they are reconsidering ICE in there upcoming BEV cars. Porsche will always offer what people are willing to pay for. There is no last of anything as long as they want to continuing selling cars. The new T is just a cabriolet with a manual. Now the next question will be, do they offer the 992.2 S with a de-tuned GTS hybrid, or just bump up the base cars turbo’s since they are just the old 992.1 S/GTS turbos with a new inter cooler. VAG is in financial trouble and having to consider serious cost cutting measures. After awhile, value comes into the equation as they 911 approaches exotic car prices and it wasn’t so long ago that the base 992.1 carrera was a base price of $98,750, for the same torque and 10 less hp than the 992.2. Time will tell and we will see what happens with the 994, but I think history will repeat itself. Sorry for being long winded and this is just my opinion.

[MineralGreyMetallic]

Originally Posted by c1pher

No. I believe this started happening as dealerships got absorbed into larger chains that represent multiple marques. So now a sales rep who works at a Chevy dealer gets a promotion to work at the Porsche dealer and they apply all the same strategies across the board. This is my ninth Porsche. I remember buying my car, and it was a straightforward transaction after agreeing on price. I could literally walk in to the dealer and in 30 minutes or less drive away in my new car. Now forget it and it’s a painful experience basically doing battle. For most of us, these are our dream cars so, at least for me, it has really made it less than desirable.

That is so unfortunate to hear. I never really paid attention to Porsche when I was younger because I couldn't afford them. I really fell in love with the 718 GT4 when they announced it. I had my hopes to own whatever new version of it was out when I was ready to purchase.

Not sure that will be happening anymore.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by RMB

That was a great analysis and what you recommended makes perfect sense. I really enjoyed your perspective. The GT4 I had was good value at 95k, but I don’t see the value in the base or T at it’s current price point.

I agree. I feel like you’re better served getting a GTS 4.0 over a T. You get a flat six NA motor that revs to 8k with 400hp and weighs 150lbs less. It also sounds better IMO.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by RMB

I always thought the ethos of the T version was to go as light weight and simple as possible. I don’t understand why carbon ceramics aren’t offered anymore on the T and having mandatory rear seats also adds weight and defeats the purpose. With the cabriolet you HAVE to HAVE rear seats (more weight and is a heavier cabriolet).

IIRC, the T was supposed to be (relatively) cheap and pure but not really "light at all costs."

And like I said, the base T is a more pure sports car, and the vert is more a sports/roadster hybrid. I don't really have any problem with that. I mean, I'm driving an M car, so I can't throw stones lol.

I do agree it's weird that the jump seats are mandatory in the vert.

[as7920]

Originally Posted by MineralGreyMetallic

That is so unfortunate to hear. I never really paid attention to Porsche when I was younger because I couldn't afford them. I really fell in love with the 718 GT4 when they announced it. I had my hopes to own whatever new version of it was out when I was ready to purchase.

Not sure that will be happening anymore.

Same for me.

[RMB]

Originally Posted by Squidget

IIRC, the T was supposed to be (relatively) cheap and pure but not really "light at all costs."

And like I said, the base T is a more pure sports car, and the vert is more a sports/roadster hybrid. I don't really have any problem with that. I mean, I'm driving an M car, so I can't throw stones lol.

I do agree it's weird that the jump seats are mandatory in the vert.

That’s a very good point. The T was supposed to be the more affordable, pure sports car in the line up. I hate to see the price for the S and other variants. Everything is sure creeping up in price. Very good points on the T.

[fzr100098]

Originally Posted by Zybane

Porsche makes ridiculous profits on their cars, the highest in the industry. They are good cars but over-rated and over-priced. I remember in the 90's when Porsche had massive discounts as they couldn't move them.

Yep - the GT3 is kind of a cult car at this point with 100+k profits

[fanofbmwe46]

Originally Posted by robopp

All of these cars are without question better than a non-GT 911, but one major issue for me is that they only come in automatic. I had an allocation for one of the last V10 R8’s and passed it up for my 911 because I realized I’d get bored of the transmission. Rowing gears with a gearbox as good as Porsche puts out is bliss!

And owning a previously loved / but possibly abused… one without warranty would make me uneasy

[Mike_H_]

Originally Posted by MineralGreyMetallic

Someone already said it, but perhaps they eventually become an exotic brand and artificially constrain supply.

That's what happened in the entire auto industry after the pandemic.

My brother owns 7 new car dealerships. When the pandemic hit and production dropped, dealers added ADM stickers, not just for Porsche, even Camry's had $10k+.

For decades, my brother ALWAYS believed that ADM was bad business, but the absolute lack of inventory forced him to adjust.

Manufacturers took note. They decided it was MUCH better to produce fewer vehicles and charge more.

Manufacturers adjusted MSRP and invoice pricing to suck up all the extra profit.

The current prices reflect the fact that consumers are / were willing to pay a massive premium. Until they stop, prices will remain elevated.

My journey to the M240ix reflects this.

I started out looking for a VW Golf R, because I liked the stealthy, practical 4-door with a lot of power.

Tried to find one, dealers had a $15k ADM.

I looked to see what other AWD performance cars were available, found the M240ix.

I was able to buy an M240ix for the same price local dealers demanded for the Golf R. The 2 vehicles aren't even in the same league.

It's comfortable, it's fast and it handles incredibly well. I love it and so does my wife.

I'll buy an M2 X-drive when they become available in a couple years IF the x-drive is available with a manual.

BTW, my wife cannot drive stick. I've tried to teach her, but she just can't. A manual M2 with x-drive would be mine and mine alone.

[IanH]

Originally Posted by Mike_H_

That's what happened in the entire auto industry after the pandemic.

My brother owns 7 new car dealerships. When the pandemic hit and production dropped, dealers added ADM stickers, not just for Porsche, even Camry's had $10k+.

For decades, my brother ALWAYS believed that ADM was bad business, but the absolute lack of inventory forced him to adjust.

Manufacturers took note. They decided it was MUCH better to produce fewer vehicles and charge more.

Manufacturers adjusted MSRP and invoice pricing to suck up all the extra profit.

The current prices reflect the fact that consumers are / were willing to pay a massive premium. Until they stop, prices will remain elevated.

My journey to the M240ix reflects this.

I started out looking for a VW Golf R, because I liked the stealthy, practical 4-door with a lot of power.

Tried to find one, dealers had a $15k ADM.

I looked to see what other AWD performance cars were available, found the M240ix.

I was able to buy an M240ix for the same price local dealers demanded for the Golf R. The 2 vehicles aren't even in the same league.

It's comfortable, it's fast and it handles incredibly well. I love it and so does my wife.

I'll buy an M2 X-drive when they become available in a couple years IF the x-drive is available with a manual.

BTW, my wife cannot drive stick. I've tried to teach her, but she just can't. A manual M2 with x-drive would be mine and mine alone.

Its funny when you find someone doing the exact same thing you are doing.

Was dead set on an rs3... but was going to have to pay msrp and they jacked that up again for 2025.

M240 is within a sneeze of the rs3 and I could get a discount. Ends up being over 15k less when tax is factored.

M2 AWD waiting room it is.

[Mr. Hankey]

Originally Posted by Mike_H_

Manufacturers adjusted MSRP and invoice pricing to suck up all the extra profit.

This exactly. The Porsche inflation is all post-pandemic, and the Ukraine war played a role in that Porsche wiring harnesses were built there and couldn't be sourced anymore, so you had pandemic on top of actual major critical parts shortages for the 992.1 911s and GT cars so supply was VERY limited.

Add to that the GT car "lottery" where anyone in the past who could get their hands on an allocation were pretty much guaranteed to drive the car for a year and get their money back could now net 50-100K in profit flipping the 992 cars which saw demand skyrocket. I think my toothless meth-addicted neighbor was "on the GT3 list" along with me....Sure I'll pay your 50K ADM knowing I will still walk away with 50K profit flipping the thing after driving it for a season. I think Porsche realized this and has now finally rolled those ADMs into the MSRP. And really special models like the S/T now have to be leased for a year before you are allowed to purchase to prevent the flippers....the P dealers, meanwhile, are still being a$$hats and crying "limited supply" and refusing to negotiate below MSRP, for now. They are still selling all of their cars (SUVs that's debatable).

The 911t is supposed to be Miata-like...under powered car that rewards the high-rev driver to get the most out of it and not going straight to jail if pulled over like would happen in any GT car. So it is one of those "special" models that people flocked to when it first came out and they were about as difficult to get as a GT car. Porsche knows this and people who want the 911t experience will pay for it. They don't want the fastest car. Its light and a very well sorted chassis and suspension, with a manual, and the reliability of Porsche cars is reflected in their low depreciation values, unlike BMW. They don't want an M2, 3/4 because they probably already have one in addition to the 991t. The people buying these are either very focused on this particular car, or its just a different pair of shoes in their closet to be worn when the mood and occasion fits...price doesn't matter to them.

[ourlee]

My perfect p car is a Cayman 718s. It can be built for 94k, give it to DeMan for proper gearing for another 10k, BAMM 3100lb perfect street runner. I’d never sell that car.