[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

Here's a suggestion out of left field: PHEV. You sort of get the best of both worlds.
My real life experience. I opted for a Wrangler 4Xe. With the gov subsidies, my monthly payments after tax are like $360 on a $61K vehicle.
I use it as my shit weather vehicle and to get to work and back as it uses very little gas in that situation. I get over 700 miles of range on one tank of gas because my work is just a bit more than what the full EV range on it is (27 miles when its warm and 24 miles when its close to freezing).
I took it on a 3 hour drive to the inlaws and averaged about 28 mpg after my electric juice ran out on that tank of gas, it was over 400 miles including getting there and back and making a few trips to the office again.
You also get the added benefit of 375 hp and 470 lb. ft tq so the thing scoots. EV tq is great because its at 0 rpm, there feels like a mountain of it.
You also get the benefit of driving a Wrangler, on 33 inch mud terrains with lockers that can legit get you anywhere you want to be. Take it off road and its a blast.

Downsides are you're driving a vehicle with two solid axles on 33 inch mud terrains. And everything is made of plastic. It's cheap inside but also kind of great with the updated infotainment for 2024.

Leasing is the way to go as monthly payments are super cheap, along with the gas or lack thereof. I sure as shit wouldn't spend $61K on it though. That's just insane.

Just some food for thought. I guess you can also take a look at a Grand Cherokee 4Xe that is more comparable to the Cayenne in terms of driving experience than a Wrangler. They lease really well too.

Anyone planning to do this probably should do it like in the next week, week and a half. Those super cheap leases are likely going away, because they're taxpayer subsidized. And big surprise, subsidizing new cars for people that largely can already afford them is a very unpopular thing for people not getting their cars paid for.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by chassis

I drove an X3M for a week in Germany and did not like it. Drony exhaust and punishing suspension. Air suspension not available.

Cayenne air suspension on all trim levels is a sublime experience. GTS/Turbo/TGT power when you want it, air suspension for comfort when you want it. Porsche has the best overall total package of performance, comfort and luxury.

Definitely considering another Cayenne or even a Macan with the PASM or whatever they call it. However the longer I read through rennlist the less I want another Porsche. My experience with dealers has not been great either. Took I several visits to different dealers to get them to fix leaking engine mounts. Shit was leaking the floor, had my indy who does my oil changes even take a pic of some oil leaking down. They literally claimed there was no oil everything was fine. Dafuq! Lithium battery died day after I got it, did they fix that fortunately but took several weeks to even get the stupid thing. Transmission is jerky as fuck, from everything I've read it's "normal" for 2019-2021.

Anyways if CPO wasn't over I would probably just keep driving it, I just feel it's a ticking time bomb and it certainly ain't going up in value so might as well get out.

Drove some other ES 350s none sport, drove some older 2018-2019 LS 500s... honestly they were alright. Not super impressed with the ES. One LS was meh and the other drove significantly better but was kinda beat up even if only 45k miles. The tech may also be a struggle. All the LS had that horrible track pad thing, who knows if they even have carplay, no touch screen. I think I have to go 2021+ to get touch screen. On the ES 2023+ are full touch screen no track pad at all.

Feels weird because I typically know EXACTLY what I want. First time I'm like meh. Can't even decide between sedan or SUV. Also the new Model Y is out in some areas... definitely a fan of that but basically the same inside as my 3.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Unpopular opinion... X5 is better all around than Cayenne. It's more comfortable, typically faster, and better practicality . It also looks better and is cheaper. Cayennes are nice, for a gussied up Q7.

I do need to check one out, although I disagree on looks. The X5 doesn't look bad, but a proper Cayenne looks way better. One of the main reasons I bought it to start with.

Also have to define what you mean by drives better. I doubt it will be better in any sporty kinda way. If it drives better in a none sporty, smooth, luxurious way then it may be what I'm looking for now. The Cayenne drive at its best when you are flooring it. It HATES going slow and bumper to bumper traffic.

[pbonsalb]

Cayennes are great, but a little smaller than the X5, cost at least 25% more to buy and cost maybe 50% more to service. We have a 21 Cayenne S that we bought new after test driving an X5; obviously we liked the Cayenne enough to pay the premium. Dealer just quoted $3400 for the 40k mile service. I am doing it myself for $425 in parts.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Cayennes are great, but a little smaller than the X5, cost at least 25% more to buy and cost maybe 50% more to service. We have a 21 Cayenne S that we bought new after test driving an X5; obviously we liked the Cayenne enough to pay the premium. Dealer just quoted $3400 for the 40k mile service. I am doing it myself for $425 in parts.

Yeah it only goes to the dealer for warranty work. Oil changes etc are all done at indy shop. After the first time they told me an oil change was like $500 I was done with them. There's nothing special about the engine or oil to warrant a $500 price tag other than the badge. I'm not the guy.

It's gonna need brakes real soon also, actually I was told it needed brakes like a year ago, but still going just fine. Another reason I'm trying to get rid of it sooner rather than later.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I do need to check one out, although I disagree on looks. The X5 doesn't look bad, but a proper Cayenne looks way better. One of the main reasons I bought it to start with.

Also have to define what you mean by drives better. I doubt it will be better in any sporty kinda way. If it drives better in a none sporty, smooth, luxurious way then it may be what I'm looking for now. The Cayenne drive at its best when you are flooring it. It HATES going slow and bumper to bumper traffic.

That's exactly what I mean. If money is no object and you just want an SUV to drive like it's a sports car, a Cayenne Turbo GT is better. But in the real world, X5 is a better compromise in sporty and comfortable to drive around town. Plus, you can get X5 with a great steel spring suspension and aren't stuck with air ride floating and wallowing all over the place

[Alfisti]

Have you considered a Stelvio? I just did the major 4 yr service (after 5 years) for $800CDN at a dealer and the car has been good to us, wife loves it and it drives really well.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Definitely considering another Cayenne or even a Macan with the PASM or whatever they call it. However the longer I read through rennlist the less I want another Porsche. My experience with dealers has not been great either. Took I several visits to different dealers to get them to fix leaking engine mounts. Shit was leaking the floor, had my indy who does my oil changes even take a pic of some oil leaking down. They literally claimed there was no oil everything was fine. Dafuq! Lithium battery died day after I got it, did they fix that fortunately but took several weeks to even get the stupid thing. Transmission is jerky as fuck, from everything I've read it's "normal" for 2019-2021.

Anyways if CPO wasn't over I would probably just keep driving it, I just feel it's a ticking time bomb and it certainly ain't going up in value so might as well get out.

Drove some other ES 350s none sport, drove some older 2018-2019 LS 500s... honestly they were alright. Not super impressed with the ES. One LS was meh and the other drove significantly better but was kinda beat up even if only 45k miles. The tech may also be a struggle. All the LS had that horrible track pad thing, who knows if they even have carplay, no touch screen. I think I have to go 2021+ to get touch screen. On the ES 2023+ are full touch screen no track pad at all.

Feels weird because I typically know EXACTLY what I want. First time I'm like meh. Can't even decide between sedan or SUV. Also the new Model Y is out in some areas... definitely a fan of that but basically the same inside as my 3.

Have a think about a CPO Macan GTS with the 2.9TTV6 and air suspension. If in your price range, a 2022 CPO GTS gives you 2 years of original warranty + 2 years of CPO. Great power and sound from the engine and, deep into its production lifecycle, means these are the best of the bunch so far. Water pump is the main thing to be aware of with the latest Porsche vee engines. You will likely see a water pump replacement, possibly two, during a 4-year ownership. The water pump is covered under warranty.

PASM is adjustable/adaptive shocks, nothing more. Air suspension is not PASM and vice versa. A car with air suspension additionally has PASM.

Not a big fan of the PDK so that imo is something to think about. Porsche should put the ZF8HP in the Macan but seems unlikely given how long in the tooth the ICE platform is.

[G MONEY]

Just saw a vid with a 2015 low mileage RS7 that sold at auction for 24,000. To buy new was 140K.

[dgoldenz]

Originally Posted by G MONEY

Just saw a vid with a 2015 low mileage RS7 that sold at auction for 24,000. To buy new was 140K.

It also probably had 100k miles on it and needs $15k in deferred maintenance and repairs. What do you consider “low mileage”? I almost bought an RS7 before the seller decided to keep it. His fidelity warranty had already paid out $18k in his first year of ownership and it “only” had 60k miles on it.

[G MONEY]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

It also probably had 100k miles on it and needs $15k in deferred maintenance and repairs. What do you consider “low mileage”? I almost bought an RS7 before the seller decided to keep it. His fidelity warranty had already paid out $18k in his first year of ownership and it “only” had 60k miles on it.

No clue on the mileage. I had just seen the vid or article I forget where i saw it. It was just a baseline for the OP since he has a pretty low budget. I personally would stay away from RR. My sister has had a few and all 3 were complete nightmares. Lexus would be his sweet spot for the money he has put aside in my opinion. They are reliable AF and the higher end models are pretty nice. So he can definitely find a good used one

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Yeah it only goes to the dealer for warranty work. Oil changes etc are all done at indy shop. After the first time they told me an oil change was like $500 I was done with them. There's nothing special about the engine or oil to warrant a $500 price tag other than the badge. I'm not the guy.

It's gonna need brakes real soon also, actually I was told it needed brakes like a year ago, but still going just fine. Another reason I'm trying to get rid of it sooner rather than later.

The oil change, at least on the Cayenne S, is sort of a pain. The filter is stuffed between the compressors of the turbos and a support bar that goes across the front end has to be removed. And the belly pan that hides the drain plug is secured with about 20 screws. It takes me 1-2 hours, but I am slow, let the filter housing drain longer than a dealer would, and clean stuff along the way. The oil is just Mobil ESP you can buy at Walmart and the filter is $15 depending on which of several makes you buy.

I just priced front brake pads at about $300 for a kit with sensors. I don’t have the surface treated or carbon rotors and the rotors do not appear to need replacement at the 44k on my car. Dealer was the one who said the front pads would need replacing before too long, but I have not looked myself. I can change the pads in a couple of hours, but may remove the rotors and have them turned to remove any pad deposits and ensure an even surface for the new pads. It has been a while since I paid a machine shop to turn rotors — usually I just buy new, so I am not sure what that will cost — $75?

We tend to keep cars about 10 years and are only 4 years in. I do all the post warranty or free/prepaid service work. But these newer cars are much harder to work on than cars from 20 years ago.

[pbonsalb]

Originally Posted by chassis

Have a think about a CPO Macan GTS with the 2.9TTV6 and air suspension. If in your price range, a 2022 CPO GTS gives you 2 years of original warranty + 2 years of CPO. Great power and sound from the engine and, deep into its production lifecycle, means these are the best of the bunch so far. Water pump is the main thing to be aware of with the latest Porsche vee engines. You will likely see a water pump replacement, possibly two, during a 4-year ownership. The water pump is covered under warranty.

PASM is adjustable/adaptive shocks, nothing more. Air suspension is not PASM and vice versa. A car with air suspension additionally has PASM.

Not a big fan of the PDK so that imo is something to think about. Porsche should put the ZF8HP in the Macan but seems unlikely given how long in the tooth the ICE platform is.

My 21 Cayenne S with the same engine has 44k and a coolant leak. It looks to me like my leak is only from the thermo pneumatic valve and not the pump, but I ordered a new valve, pump, and thermostat housing since I will be working in the area. When the pump is leaking, the vacuum system gets coolant into it and can damage a number of parts. Dealers charge $3k to $6k depending on the parts affected. I spent about $350 on parts, but if I have to change vacuum parts that will double or triple or more.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Have you considered a Stelvio? I just did the major 4 yr service (after 5 years) for $800CDN at a dealer and the car has been good to us, wife loves it and it drives really well.

I can't say I think much about Alfa. I guess I'm just not a fan of that "beak" design. I've heard it drives well so may have to take a look if they have good lease deals.

Originally Posted by chassis

Have a think about a CPO Macan GTS with the 2.9TTV6 and air suspension. If in your price range, a 2022 CPO GTS gives you 2 years of original warranty + 2 years of CPO. Great power and sound from the engine and, deep into its production lifecycle, means these are the best of the bunch so far. Water pump is the main thing to be aware of with the latest Porsche vee engines. You will likely see a water pump replacement, possibly two, during a 4-year ownership. The water pump is covered under warranty.

PASM is adjustable/adaptive shocks, nothing more. Air suspension is not PASM and vice versa. A car with air suspension additionally has PASM.

Not a big fan of the PDK so that imo is something to think about. Porsche should put the ZF8HP in the Macan but seems unlikely given how long in the tooth the ICE platform is.

I have driven the Macan GTS a couple of times... it's probably my favorite model/trim. HOWEVER what totally kills it for me is the bolstered seats they put in it. I find them very uncomfortable and since we mostly do long highway trips I don't think I could live with that. I think the turbo Macan doesn't have that, but never driven a turbo. The GTS and Turbo Cayennes are out of the budget.

As for the suspension yeah I'm not sure what makes it drive smooth the PASM or the air because I had a Cadillac XTS which only had the mag ride and it was amazing. I also drove a 2019 LS 500 with air suspension and a 2018 which I don't believe had the air suspension and I feel the 2018 rode better. Could also just be the overall condition and mileage... who knows.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

The oil change, at least on the Cayenne S, is sort of a pain. The filter is stuffed between the compressors of the turbos and a support bar that goes across the front end has to be removed. And the belly pan that hides the drain plug is secured with about 20 screws. It takes me 1-2 hours, but I am slow, let the filter housing drain longer than a dealer would, and clean stuff along the way. The oil is just Mobil ESP you can buy at Walmart and the filter is $15 depending on which of several makes you buy.

I just priced front brake pads at about $300 for a kit with sensors. I don’t have the surface treated or carbon rotors and the rotors do not appear to need replacement at the 44k on my car. Dealer was the one who said the front pads would need replacing before too long, but I have not looked myself. I can change the pads in a couple of hours, but may remove the rotors and have them turned to remove any pad deposits and ensure an even surface for the new pads. It has been a while since I paid a machine shop to turn rotors — usually I just buy new, so I am not sure what that will cost — $75?

We tend to keep cars about 10 years and are only 4 years in. I do all the post warranty or free/prepaid service work. But these newer cars are much harder to work on than cars from 20 years ago.

I believe on the base it's in the engine bay. Many people DIY it by using an oil extractor. I use to do that on my Z4M. Too busy right now to mess with it but definitely something I might have tried otherwise. That's basically the level of my DIYing.

[dgoldenz]

Try the 14 way seats in the macan. They are significantly less bolstered and more of a flat seat. I preferred them over the 18 ways. I prefer the 18’s in a 911 or Panamera.

On a side note, if you’re considering a Lexus I’d look at Genesis too. I was genuinely impressed with how nice the GV80 Prestige was.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

Cayennes are great, but a little smaller than the X5, cost at least 25% more to buy and cost maybe 50% more to service. We have a 21 Cayenne S that we bought new after test driving an X5; obviously we liked the Cayenne enough to pay the premium. Dealer just quoted $3400 for the 40k mile service. I am doing it myself for $425 in parts.

First time I have seen a Cayenne described as smaller than an X5. Specifically which dimension is the Cayenne smaller than the X5?

[chassis]

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

The oil change, at least on the Cayenne S, is sort of a pain.

It's not that bad. Maybe 15 minutes longer than a W166 GLE350.

Originally Posted by pbonsalb

I just priced front brake pads at about $300 for a kit with sensors.

Last summer I paid $362 for Porsche front pads, sensors and caliper screws, including tax and shipping from Sunset. Not terrible. Ignore anything a dealer says about brakes, it is a money grab project for them.

[chassis]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

HOWEVER what totally kills it for me is the bolstered seats they put in it.

Sport seats are body size/shape dependent. I love the aggressively bolstered 18-ways on the Cayenne but not everyone likes them. Personal taste/choice.

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

...I'm not sure what makes it drive smooth the PASM or the air...

Low spring rate is the answer. Adjustable shocks (PASM, magnaride, etc.) have a secondary influence on ride comfort. The car needs either a steel suspension with a low spring rate (Lincoln Town Car, Cadillac Brougham) or air suspension which by its nature uses a low spring rate for comfort driving. The latest multichamber air springs provide 3 or 4 spring rates which delivers high levels of comfort and sportiness when combined with adjustable shocks.

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I believe on the base it's in the engine bay.

Base 9Y0 Cayenne uses the same EA839 V6 engine as the 9Y0 S. Difference is displacement and number of turbos. Base is 3.0T and S is 2.9TT. Both engines have the oil filter housing in the vee. 2 turbos on the 2.9 means less clearance to remove the oil filter housing and therefore the front chassis cross brace needs to be removed as mentioned a few posts ago.

[ShocknAwe]

We had a cayenne GTS. Great truck. But replaced it with an X5D after it was totaled and if you have a Miata I'd just get a hauler. X5D is wonderful. Flip down tailgate is a game changer and it holds a LOT more inside while being dimensionally smaller on the exterior.

Or check out the new Expedition, friend of mine got a king ranch recently it's quite nice if overly large.

[dreamingat30fps]

Well after my latest and last experience with Porsche service I'm pretty sure I don't want another Porsche. Only 2 dealers around me. One was a month+ out to get appointment, the other I managed to get appointment before warranty runs out, but no loaners and it sat for 2 days before they could even look at it. Of course as expected everything is to spec and they can't replicate anything. Except the trunk kick sensor, yeah that opens whenever it wants, but it's designed to be shit so no problem.

[dreamingat30fps]

Just figured I would close this out. Picked up a 2022 ES350 today. Really wanted to see an Ultra Luxury trimmed one but they are a bit hard to find around here. Local dealer finally got one in and I went to see it today. I think it made it feel more modern than some of the other ES350s I saw.

Anyways we'll see how long the Lexus stint lasts.

[Bumpinjeep]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Just figured I would close this out. Picked up a 2022 ES350 today. Really wanted to see an Ultra Luxury trimmed one but they are a bit hard to find around here. Local dealer finally got one in and I went to see it today. I think it made it feel more modern than some of the other ES350s I saw.

Anyways we'll see how long the Lexus stint lasts.

What were the details? Did you get it at a decent price? Pictures?