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      01-10-2025, 11:47 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by JMcLellan View Post
I even heard a famous billionaire talk about how CA is now routing water away from reservoirs (which would have helped better equip firefighters) to help the smelt fish??

I cannot imagine the folks who not only lost their home but who didn't have insurance coverage, and who still have a bank loan. Oofda.
Delta smelt have been a sore spot for decades. Environmental groups have blocked the building a huge diversions that would put water into the Ca aqueduct because it would affect these little fishes. Instead, fresh water simply flows to the ocean. The risk to the smelt is they are so small they would go thru the screens and get transported to non-native areas, threateningly their lives.
Still, even if there was water in the aqueduct, it wouldn't have made it to those hydrants due to the pumping requirements.

Generally here, loans require insurance. When I entered escrow on the cabin, a few people who were getting a loan found out how much insurance would be, and backed out. For those wanting a loan, as the insurance companies bail again, it's going to be difficult. I can see a lot of billionaires buying up "fire sale" property.
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      01-10-2025, 11:51 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Tyga11 View Post
Why would they build homes there again if there is a huge fire risk? Seems like a huge liability.
Why do they rebuild after a flood/earthquake/hurricane/volcanic eruption?
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      01-10-2025, 11:52 AM   #47
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I've been streaming the local LA news channel for the past few days. I can't even fathom what people are going through at this time. I'm extremely sad for everyone, even the hollywood elite. The PTSD for the children is even more frightening for me. My kids still remember when we evacuated for Hurricane Irma when they were five years old.

I'm praying for everyone out there.
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      01-10-2025, 12:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by JMcLellan View Post
“…I assume no one in leadership positions would just simply avoid reasonable prevention actions to try to avoid something like this…”
There are multiple failures and unfortunately for the fire victims most could have been anticipated and prevented.

I grew up in SoCal (Orange County). I left in 1980 and returned for a few years from about 1984-1990. I only visit now to see family.

In the 1970s there were wildfires, but they rarely got huge. Forests and other land were maintained with underbrush clearing and fire breaks. That all stopped when it became environmentally desirable to let the forests and other land naturally grow, and burn. Given urban proximity, this seems to be a severe mismanagement issue; perhaps some mitigation (high volume fire sprinklers, no more permitting of structures near these areas, buffer zones, whatever) could have been tried. I mean, they’ve had nearly 50 years to figure something out.

Water is another issue. SoCal especially is dependent on water from afar and has not developed significant new water resources nor storage that I am aware of in spite of continued population and structure growth. They did implement water use rules (toilets etc) and sometimes ration water for lawns, but anyone could see they should have tied new development to availability of water resources for that development. So no surprise that there were difficulties with water availability and/or pressure to fight the fires.

It is popular to blame climate change, but politicians and leaders are expected to mitigate, not stand with their hands in their (back) pockets. If the threat of these events has been growing for 50 years, why hasn’t anything been done to prevent/mitigate?

Insurance and bad regulation of it is another set of issues.

And that’s just a start. This is a “systems failure” and those are usually characterized by multiple smaller failures that combine into a “perfect storm”. Each failure is/was preventable. Together they were disastrous.

I know people want to make this political, but I really couldn’t say it is due to one party or would be better with another. It is poor management and poor planning in a number of arenas over a very long period, and being in one party or the other does not make one immune.

There is time to properly evaluate all that went wrong and take real corrective actions. I think, as I posted above, the rebuilding process will result in many more lessons being learned. Fortunately so far few lives were lost. Mudslides are next, as always in SoCal following a fire.
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      01-10-2025, 12:08 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyga11 View Post
Why would they build homes there again if there is a huge fire risk? Seems like a huge liability.
This question gets asked after every disaster anywhere in the country. Why do people live below sea level in New Orleans?
Why do people live in the Tornado belt?
Why do people live in hurricane-prone areas?
Why do people live in the desert with severe water dependencies?
Why do people live in earthquake zones?
Etc
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      01-10-2025, 12:33 PM   #50
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LA has a sorry excuse for a mayor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyga11 View Post
I was being sarcastic.
No, more like douche-e.

Or exibiting poor taste in parroting douchebags who try to extract political capital from natural disasters.

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      01-10-2025, 12:37 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
There are multiple failures and unfortunately for the fire victims most could have been anticipated and prevented.

I grew up in SoCal (Orange County). I left in 1980 and returned for a few years from about 1984-1990. I only visit now to see family.

In the 1970s there were wildfires, but they rarely got huge. Forests and other land were maintained with underbrush clearing and fire breaks. That all stopped when it became environmentally desirable to let the forests and other land naturally grow, and burn. Given urban proximity, this seems to be a severe mismanagement issue; perhaps some mitigation (high volume fire sprinklers, no more permitting of structures near these areas, buffer zones, whatever) could have been tried. I mean, they’ve had nearly 50 years to figure something out.

Water is another issue. SoCal especially is dependent on water from afar and has not developed significant new water resources nor storage that I am aware of in spite of continued population and structure growth. They did implement water use rules (toilets etc) and sometimes ration water for lawns, but anyone could see they should have tied new development to availability of water resources for that development. So no surprise that there were difficulties with water availability and/or pressure to fight the fires.

It is popular to blame climate change, but politicians and leaders are expected to mitigate, not stand with their hands in their (back) pockets. If the threat of these events has been growing for 50 years, why hasn’t anything been done to prevent/mitigate?

Insurance and bad regulation of it is another set of issues.

And that’s just a start. This is a “systems failure” and those are usually characterized by multiple smaller failures that combine into a “perfect storm”. Each failure is/was preventable. Together they were disastrous.

I know people want to make this political, but I really couldn’t say it is due to one party or would be better with another. It is poor management and poor planning in a number of arenas over a very long period, and being in one party or the other does not make one immune.

There is time to properly evaluate all that went wrong and take real corrective actions. I think, as I posted above, the rebuilding process will result in many more lessons being learned. Fortunately so far few lives were lost. Mudslides are next, as always in SoCal following a fire.
Thanks for the details. My post came from a place of now knowing anything about the area only living in MN my whole life. I just hate the fact there are people out there waiting around for something horrible to happen so they can be the first to say I told you so. I think pitchfork-nation is the term to categorize these a-holes.
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      01-10-2025, 12:38 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMcLellan View Post
Thanks for the details. My post came from a place of now knowing anything about the area only living in MN my whole life. I just hate the fact there are people out there waiting around for something horrible to happen so they can be the first to say I told you so. I think pitchfork-nation is the term to categorize these a-holes.
I agree with you on this and on the rest of your other post.
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      01-10-2025, 12:49 PM   #53
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The other big issue I struggle with in descriptions is fire "containment" Palisades is still set at 8% contained. Yet we aren't hearing about new areas being threatened, just the devastation from the previous days. There are over 3000 staff, 350 engines, 23 helicopters, 5 airplanes, 54 dozers. They have stopped the flames from advancing on several fronts, but they haven't "contained" it yet.
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      01-10-2025, 02:00 PM   #54
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https://app.watchduty.org/i/40388
https://www.fire.ca.gov/incidents

For those interested
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      01-10-2025, 02:22 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Speaking of urban sprawl, and containing it. I am on the board of a small mutual water company. We supply water to 2 blocks on 2 streets. The local fire code changed a few years ago and we now are in a building moratorium. The code says we basically need 100,000 gallon tank before we can build again. We used to be able to claim the water in the aquafer as fire flow storage. The change was because even if we have a generator to run the pumps, those can fail too during a fire, so it all has to be gravity-fed to supply 50 gal/minute for 2 hours. If anyone wants to contribute to our GoFundMe for $1.2m, I'll send you a link Our current 2 tanks hold a total of 5000.

In Palisades, they not only couldn't refill those 3 MILLION gallons, but to push it up hill to the hydrants requires pumps, that require electricity, which was cut/failed due to fires.

We are upgrading a small section of our main pipes to go from 4" to 6". For about 300 linear' it's running us upwards of $800k, and our street is basically flat. Palisades is some very hilly areas, so replacing the original main lines to those 3 tanks would be horrendously expensive, and with the new Prop 218 requirements, the public has to approve any proposed rate increases.

3 MILLION gallons of water, and it didn't put a dent in those fires. Once the winds died down, the aerial assault could be used. Those can get water from reservoirs that hold 100s m gallons of water, or even the local pools, as fast as they can suck them up into the belly of the aircraft.

I have extensive experience with water infrastructure design, engineering, installation, and operation. Engineering manager for a major oil and gas company for fracking operations in a previous life. Those prices are absolutely insane anywhere else in the US. We installed permanent water tanks that size with dirt work/pad/piping/controls for under $250k. 8" water line for $1k/foot installed on the high end. What's the rationale for the pricing?
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      01-10-2025, 04:33 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nunzo View Post
8" water line for $1k/foot installed on the high end. What's the rationale for the pricing?
Including all the new laterals?

We have ~$230k in materials alone, and those are a bargain that our supplier froze prices from almost 3 years ago when we applied for a grant from the state.
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      01-10-2025, 04:56 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Including all the new laterals?

We have ~$230k in materials alone, and those are a bargain that our supplier froze prices from almost 3 years ago when we applied for a grant from the state.

if they are included in that linear feet, yes. If not, I can see how smaller diameter residential feeds could add up fast. Average price in my area for home feed line replacement is around $500/ft.

Pennsylvania/Ohio/West Virginia are different than socal, but still with a high percentage of rock, tree clearing, high grade terrain, 8" was around that installed. Last project I worked on was 5 years ago but in the peak I was managing $250-$300 million in annual budgets and bought hundreds of miles of HDPE.
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      01-10-2025, 08:14 PM   #58
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I lived through the witch creek fires there and was woken up to how common they were - that made moving back to Florida a lot easier.

Here’s a list of the top 10 worst fires in Southern California since 1950, based on size, destruction, and loss of life:

1. Cedar Fire (2003)

• Location: San Diego County
• Acreage: 273,246 acres
• Structures Lost: 2,820
• Fatalities: 15
• Cause: Human (signal fire)
• The largest fire in California’s recorded history at the time.

2. Thomas Fire (2017)

• Location: Ventura and Santa Barbara Counties
• Acreage: 281,893 acres
• Structures Lost: 1,063
• Fatalities: 2
• Cause: Power lines
• Severe wind conditions spread this fire rapidly.

3. Woolsey Fire (2018)

• Location: Los Angeles and Ventura Counties
• Acreage: 96,949 acres
• Structures Lost: 1,643
• Fatalities: 3
• Cause: Electrical equipment failure
• Burned through Malibu and surrounding communities.

4. Camp Fire (2018)

• Location: Butte County (Northern California but worth noting)
• Acreage: 153,336 acres
• Structures Lost: 18,804
• Fatalities: 85
• Cause: Electrical transmission lines
• Though outside SoCal, this remains California’s deadliest and most destructive fire.

5. Santiago Canyon Fire (1889)

• Location: Orange County
• Acreage: ~300,000 acres (estimate)
• While this predates 1950, it’s one of the largest fires in Southern California history.

6. Old Fire (2003)

• Location: San Bernardino County
• Acreage: 91,281 acres
• Structures Lost: 993
• Fatalities: 6
• Cause: Arson
• Occurred during the same devastating fire season as the Cedar Fire.

7. Laguna Fire (1970)

• Location: San Diego County
• Acreage: 175,425 acres
• Structures Lost: 382
• Fatalities: 5
• Cause: Downed power lines
• One of the most significant fires of the 1970s.

8. Bel-Air Fire (1961)

• Location: Los Angeles County
• Acreage: 6,090 acres
• Structures Lost: 484
• Fatalities: 0
• Cause: Embers from a garbage fire
• Made headlines due to the destruction of celebrity homes.

9. Malibu Fire (1993)

• Location: Los Angeles County
• Acreage: 16,516 acres
• Structures Lost: 388
• Fatalities: 3
• Cause: Arson
• Part of a devastating fire season in Malibu’s history.

10. Bobcat Fire (2020)

• Location: Los Angeles County (Angeles National Forest)
• Acreage: 115,796 acres
• Structures Lost: 170
• Fatalities: 0
• Cause: Under investigation (suspected power equipment)
• One of the largest fires in Los Angeles County.



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Sounds pizzagatey.
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      01-10-2025, 11:10 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
There are multiple failures and unfortunately for the fire victims most could have been anticipated and prevented.

I grew up in SoCal (Orange County). I left in 1980 and returned for a few years from about 1984-1990. I only visit now to see family.

In the 1970s there were wildfires, but they rarely got huge. Forests and other land were maintained with underbrush clearing and fire breaks. That all stopped when it became environmentally desirable to let the forests and other land naturally grow, and burn. Given urban proximity, this seems to be a severe mismanagement issue; perhaps some mitigation (high volume fire sprinklers, no more permitting of structures near these areas, buffer zones, whatever) could have been tried. I mean, they’ve had nearly 50 years to figure something out.

Water is another issue. SoCal especially is dependent on water from afar and has not developed significant new water resources nor storage that I am aware of in spite of continued population and structure growth. They did implement water use rules (toilets etc) and sometimes ration water for lawns, but anyone could see they should have tied new development to availability of water resources for that development. So no surprise that there were difficulties with water availability and/or pressure to fight the fires.

It is popular to blame climate change, but politicians and leaders are expected to mitigate, not stand with their hands in their (back) pockets. If the threat of these events has been growing for 50 years, why hasn’t anything been done to prevent/mitigate?

Insurance and bad regulation of it is another set of issues.

And that’s just a start. This is a “systems failure” and those are usually characterized by multiple smaller failures that combine into a “perfect storm”. Each failure is/was preventable. Together they were disastrous.

I know people want to make this political, but I really couldn’t say it is due to one party or would be better with another. It is poor management and poor planning in a number of arenas over a very long period, and being in one party or the other does not make one immune.

There is time to properly evaluate all that went wrong and take real corrective actions. I think, as I posted above, the rebuilding process will result in many more lessons being learned. Fortunately so far few lives were lost. Mudslides are next, as always in SoCal following a fire.
Our 4 seasons... Summer, Fire, Rain & Mudslides.

The real, IMHO, elephant in the room is that southern California is a desert that gets its water from elsewhere. We have turned it into the place it is now with massive amounts of water imports.
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      01-12-2025, 11:16 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2000cs View Post
This question gets asked after every disaster anywhere in the country. Why do people live below sea level in New Orleans?
Why do people live in the Tornado belt?
Why do people live in hurricane-prone areas?
Why do people live in the desert with severe water dependencies?
Why do people live in earthquake zones?
Etc
annddd car restrictions, this is enough for me


My good friend living there, he was about a mile away from the fires, he sent me a couple of picture of the flames from his balcony. Insane.

He had no obligation to evacuate, yet, but friday he packed and move to his inlaws.
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      01-12-2025, 01:58 PM   #61
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Doesn’t VIC55 live out there? If so , hope he is ok. On the building homes back? They better have some fucking common sense or it will take 10 years. My cousin was living
Out there and it took him 13/14 months to build a new garage/in law sweet with all the BS permitting. It’s a clown show in that state when it comes to building shit. He left a year later for reasons like that and the taxes. Best decision he ever made
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      01-12-2025, 05:47 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oVeRdOsE. View Post
annddd car restrictions, this is enough for me


My good friend living there, he was about a mile away from the fires, he sent me a couple of picture of the flames from his balcony. Insane.

He had no obligation to evacuate, yet, but friday he packed and move to his inlaws.
Tough choice...

In-laws...fire...in-laws...fire...in-laws...fire...
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      01-13-2025, 08:30 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Many who don't have insurance were recently CANCELED by the companies that want to bail out of Cali.

Before his death 2 year ago, my dad quit carrying insurance on the retreat cabin. For a while after his death I checked and nobody would even write a policy. Now its about $7500/6 months for fire only. ROI is about 10 years to rebuild . . .
I understand re policy cancellations, but the insurance company gives you enough runway to get CA FAIR Plan in place before your existing policy coverage ends...I had to do this as a stop gap while I searched for alternate coverage...

Now, if you decide that you don't need coverage, that's a different story...

I guess it is tempting if you pay off your mortgage and the bank's requirement for insurance disappears...
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      01-13-2025, 09:26 PM   #64
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Irony of irony's...

The NFL moved the Rams game to Glendale, AZ because of the optics of having a sporting event in the midst of this tragedy (the fires don't affect the stadium). State Farm is the insurance company that cancelled all those policies last summer and the name of the stadium in Glendale is.... wait for it....

State Farm Stadium!
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      01-14-2025, 06:47 AM   #65
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Stay safe UncleWede I see there is a new fire in your neck of the woods.
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      01-14-2025, 09:52 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by cmyx6go View Post
Stay safe UncleWede I see there is a new fire in your neck of the woods.
Burned where I used to ride bikes, catch frogs, and look at magazines. Kept me worried most of the night that my younger brother was going to call and need a place to stay, he lives in the "ancestral" home right there.

We're lucky, that area is probably pretty damp. The water in the river just stopped flowing after El Nino rains last year.
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