[TK-421]

CSB

[BTM]

Originally Posted by KGB7

I would rather be crazy with a tinfoil hat, then a sheep like your self freely walking in to a meat grinder.

Aside from what you've clearly incorrectly gleaned about me from my posts against you in the Osama thread, and maybe a few others, I'd wager you know close to nothing of my thought process or views on economic policy.

It doesnt matter if you do it from inside or outside, as long as something is done is always a good thing. You are right, the system is far from broken, it simply doesn't exists anymore.

Doesn't exist anymore? Do we still buy things with money? Is there still a system for credit? Your little plastic cards still swipe and you still walk out of stores with things? Are there still markets?

Yes, yes, yes...The "system" surely exists...

"Fixing things from the outside" is exactly a source of some of the stupidest and most inefficient methods to attempt to improve things. I can cite countless examples of this in my industry alone. The gov't, Fed, or both are actually quite similar to Anonymous. Groups of people you don't really know, who haven't honestly identified their goals, attempting to use coercive force to get their way because they think they know what is better for you than you do.

[Epacy2]

Originally Posted by ferrari355fi

they won't do shit

Based on? I think their track record directly contradicts you...

[BTM]

Originally Posted by Epacy2

Based on? I think their track record directly contradicts you...

Track record of what? They've targeted a bunch of organizations before. Visa and Mastercard still don't support wikileaks donations. Attacks against Australia were shown minimal and ineffective. Their best effort against HBGary was sending faxes and making phonecalls. Censorship and net neutrality are still very much issues. They haven't accomplished anything.

[number335]

I agree with real change needs to be done from within (the government). But that change won't happen if we sit on our laurels and do nothing. People need to demand change...but we are headed in a direction where even our voice doesn't matter much anymore. This Anonymous group is at least doing something that our lazy asses won't do. I don't think their main objective is to get rid of Bernanke. I think the bigger objective is to get people to realize that they are being suckered into a system that is destined to fail in the long run if we don't do anything about it. If the media won't report the real issues behind this failing economy, someone has too.

[Epacy2]

Originally Posted by BTM

Track record of what? They've targeted a bunch of organizations before. Visa and Mastercard still don't support wikileaks donations. Attacks against Australia were shown minimal and ineffective. Their best effort against HBGary was sending faxes and making phonecalls. Censorship and net neutrality are still very much issues. They haven't accomplished anything.

Might want to brush up a little more on the topic.
RSA SecurID keys for starters...

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by number335

I agree with real change needs to be done from within (the government). But that change won't happen if we sit on our laurels and do nothing. People need to demand change...but we are headed in a direction where even our voice doesn't matter much anymore. This Anonymous group is at least doing something that our lazy asses won't do. I don't think their main objective is to get rid of Bernanke. I think the bigger objective is to get people to realize that they are being suckered into a system that is destined to fail in the long run if we don't do anything about it. If the media won't report the real issues behind this failing economy, someone has too.

I'm agreeing with this statement here. A call to arms so to speak.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by number335

I agree with real change needs to be done from within (the government). But that change won't happen if we sit on our laurels and do nothing. People need to demand change...but we are headed in a direction where even our voice doesn't matter much anymore.

They demanded change, they got it. I agree there is a lot to improve, but don't think Anonymous is the only group "doing something"

This Anonymous group is at least doing something that our lazy asses won't do. I don't think their main objective is to get rid of Bernanke. I think the bigger objective is to get people to realize that they are being suckered into a system that is destined to fail in the long run if we don't do anything about it. If the media won't publish the real issues behind this failing economy, someone has too.

There are absolutely doing something that rational people, truly interested in change won't do. Terrorism, let alone pseudo-terrorism, has never done anything but tarnish the "terrorists" cause, no matter how noble the cause might be. If Anonymous was really interested in improving things, they will stop with all the ridiculous hacking, and go about achieving their goals in a visible and productive manner rather than hiding behind computer screens in other countries. If their "idea" is so correct, they won't have anything to hide.

The fact is they don't know what they're doing, what they stand for beyond a few generalizations, their organization is ineffective, and will continue to be. Which brings me back to my original point, that if they want to make a difference, get educated, get a job, see how things really work and once an understanding of what they're trying to change is obtained, maybe someone will offer something of value. At that stage there will be no reason to be anonymous.

[BTM]

Originally Posted by Epacy2

Might want to brush up a little more on the topic.
RSA SecurID keys for starters...

In the 4 articles I just found regarding RSA SecurID hacks, none mention Anon as the culprits, or even claiming to be the culprits. Nor is it listed as an Anon activity on their Wikipedia page.

[Freakazoid]

Originally Posted by BTM

They demanded change, they got it. I agree there is a lot to improve, but don't think Anonymous is the only group "doing something"



There are absolutely doing something that rational people, truly interested in change won't do. Terrorism, let alone pseudo-terrorism, has never done anything but tarnish the "terrorists" cause, no matter how noble the cause might be. If Anonymous was really interested in improving things, they will stop with all the ridiculous hacking, and go about achieving their goals in a visible and productive manner rather than hiding behind computer screens in other countries. If their "idea" is so correct, they won't have anything to hide.

The fact is they don't know what they're doing, what they stand for beyond a few generalizations, their organization is ineffective, and will continue to be. Which brings me back to my original point, that if they want to make a difference, get educated, get a job, see how things really work and once an understanding of what they're trying to change is obtained, maybe someone will offer something of value. At that stage there will be no reason to be anonymous.

BTM to play devil's advocate, (and frankly because I'm enjoying the debate here).
One could say the same thing about any of the deserved/successful/legitimate revolutions in the past as well.
Viewed as terrorism? Check.
Hiding faces? Check. (not always though)
An initially unclear and chaotic end goal? Check. (i.e. 'we want freedom', but don't know how to get it)

Are we in need of a full out revolution? No. But I see where this is coming from I guess?

[number335]

Do you realize that the government can label you a terrorist for almost any reason these days? If you speak out against the government you can be considered a terrorist and they can detain you and you lose your rights as a citizen. Doing things the right way doesn't always work. I don't blame them for being anonymous.

[CollinsE90]

tldr

[BTM]

Originally Posted by Freakazoid

BTM to play devil's advocate, (and frankly because I'm enjoying the debate here).
One could say the same thing about any of the deserved/successful/legitimate revolutions in the past as well.
Viewed as terrorism? Check.
Hiding faces? Check. (not always though)
An initially unclear and chaotic end goal? Check. (i.e. 'we want freedom', but don't know how to get it)

Are we in need of a full out revolution? No. But I see where this is coming from I guess?

"Freedom," while an encompassing term, is not an unclear goal. There is a significant difference between historic "real" oppression by institutionalized ruling classes, forms of gov't, etc...

Nothing to this degree exists in the US anymore. No matter what you want to say about the upper 1%, the gov't, lobbyists, conspiracies, I don't even know what else, absolutely nothing this society is faced with is in the same breath as slavery, for example. Anyone, black, white, whatever, who want to equate current life in the USA to slavery, in any regard, is ignorant and insensitive to the issue.

The Fed is not going out and killing people. It is not holding them against their will. It is not THE ONLY REASON you may have less money now, the economy is not recovering as quickly as we would like, and ousting Ben Bernanke, whether through legitimate or illegitimate channels, is not going to catalyze change, nor guarantee that his successor will be any more effective at inducing economic expansion.

Every major historic turnaround had an obvious, identifiable, and target-able "enemy," be it an institution, a form of gov't, and figure of state, whatever. Anonymous doesn't have one. Regardless of how they view themselves, they will do nothing but try and gum up the works from time to time. They prove ineffective, go away for a while, and then come back with another unsuccessful endeavor.

[ghosthi32]

itt tin foils

[Maestro]

Originally Posted by number335

Do you realize that the government can label you a terrorist for almost any reason these days? If you speak out against the government you can be considered a terrorist and they can detain you and you lose your rights as a citizen. Doing things the right way doesn't always work. I don't blame them for being anonymous.

Actually having gas and fertilizer in your garage can get you arrested as terrorist and having bomb making material.

[mact3333]

Originally Posted by number335

I agree with real change needs to be done from within (the government). But that change won't happen if we sit on our laurels and do nothing. People need to demand change...but we are headed in a direction where even our voice doesn't matter much anymore. This Anonymous group is at least doing something that our lazy asses won't do. I don't think their main objective is to get rid of Bernanke. I think the bigger objective is to get people to realize that they are being suckered into a system that is destined to fail in the long run if we don't do anything about it. If the media won't report the real issues behind this failing economy, someone has too.

Ding ding ding!.......I was going to post that myself but didnt want to waste my time.

Anony. knows damn well they will not get rid of Bernanke cause they have no say or realistic means to do it...Getting rid of BB will only happen if 10K's of people march on Washington everyday for the next month protesting BB, then I guarantee you Bernanke will go....but only to replaced by another crony.

So their ultimate goal is to raise awareness imho...you get people talking about what the Fed Reserve actually is and does and people will start to understand why things happen the way they do.

If 25% of the population understood who the Fed Reserve actually is and what they did, I guarantee you there would be massive protests and a revolution would take place ...the Fed Reserve would most likely be gone then...even Henry Ford said almost a 100 yrs ago that "if the people truly understood how banking actually works, there would be a revolution overnight"...its amazing the stuff people from 100-200 yrs ago said about society...anyone read what Thomas Jefferson said about banking over 200 years ago...its quite shocking how accurate and astute they were back then.

[mact3333]

Originally Posted by Maestro

Actually having gas and fertilizer in your garage can get you arrested as terrorist and having bomb making material.

There have been govt documents showing that even people with Ron Paul bumper stickers should be seen as outliers and possible terrorists...they even include Constitutionalists in that group, which is ironic since the President takes an oath to follow our Constitution.

[BMWinNorthdakota]

The complete ignorance associated with money creation is absolutely depressing. For those of you who are genuinely curious about it, check these 5 videos/article out. Its incredibly interesting and educational

http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/how-the-...-really-works/

[M3Bahn]

It's official: The housing crisis that began in 2006 and has recently entered a double dip is now worse than the Great Depression.

Prices have fallen some 33 percent since the market began its collapse, greater than the 31 percent fall that began in the late 1920s and culminated in the early 1930s, according to Case-Shiller data.

The news comes as the Federal Reserve considers whether the economy has regained enough strength to stand on its own and as unemployment remains at a still-elevated 9.1 percent, throwing into question whether the recovery is real.

"The sharp fall in house prices in the first quarter provided further confirmation that this housing crash has been larger and faster than the one during the Great Depression," Paul Dales, senior economist at Capital Economics in Toronto, wrote in research for clients.

According to Case-Shiller, which provides the most closely followed housing industry data, prices dropped 1.9 percent in the first quarter, a move that the firm interpreted as a clear double dip in prices.

Moreover, Dales said prices likely have not completed their downturn.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/43395857

[mact3333]

Originally Posted by BMWinNorthdakota

The complete ignorance associated with money creation is absolutely depressing. For those of you who are genuinely curious about it, check these 5 videos/article out. Its incredibly interesting and educational

http://www.thebuzzmedia.com/how-the-...-really-works/

I first learned about this 3-4 yrs ago and was astonished...I try to tell as many people as I can but most are too scared or indifferent to learn the truth...they want to be "comfortable" and not rock the system.

I find it so hilarious that when you get a loan from a bank they put 0's into your acct and that money comes from thin air, they didnt even have it...money is debt and debt is money...they say 90% of all the money on our planet is created by loans created by banks using fractional banking.

Its puzzling how a bank can even lose money...only time things go sour is when people lose faith in the ponzi scheme and start withdrawing their money out of the banks and then the banks would be forced to fess up the money isnt there.

[BMWinNorthdakota]

Originally Posted by mact3333

I first learned about this 3-4 yrs ago and was astonished...I try to tell as many people as I can but most are too scared or indifferent to learn the truth...they want to be "comfortable" and not rock the system.

I find it so hilarious that when you get a loan from a bank they put 0's into your acct and that money comes from thin air, they didnt even have it...money is debt and debt is money...they say 90% of all the money on our planet is created by loans created by banks using fractional banking.

Its puzzling how a bank can even lose money...only time things go sour is when people lose faith in the ponzi scheme and start withdrawing their money out of the banks and then the banks would be forced to fess up the money isnt there.

It literally is a ponzi scheme.. to the tee. So sad.

[M3Bahn]

Argentina's Economic Collapse