[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

To me, a Toyota Corolla is a transportation tool. A Volkswagen Jetta is a transportation tool. A Honda Accord or Toyota Camry are transportation tools. A Minivan is also a transportation tool.

A BMW of Any Model is not a Transportation tool in the same sense. If all we wanted were transportation tools, Go to Russia during the cold war and enjoy your Lada or Trabant.

If Anything, a BMW represents a really high level of transportation tool. It states we are not willing to settle for Humdrum. We want to get where we are going in comfort and Style. We want to enjoy the ride because we want exciting. Not bland zombies. We want the answer to "Are we there yet" to be "It will be a while longer.

So, a FWD 228i turbo 4 with an automatic, is not humdrum? Toyota has been making that car for decades. KIA, Hyundai, VW, Ford, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, MB, all make that same car.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So, a FWD 228i turbo 4 with an automatic, is not humdrum? Toyota has been making that car for decades. KIA, Hyundai, VW, Ford, Nissan, Subaru, Mazda, MB, all make that same car.

I would argue a FWD 228 is a vehicle that shouldn’t exist at all, it’s bad for BMW’s brand. It’s certainly more interesting than a Corolla though.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

I would argue a FWD 228 is a vehicle that shouldn’t exist at all, it’s bad for BMW’s brand. It’s certainly more interesting than a Corolla though.

IIRC the Carolla has a manual transmission option thru MY 2023. The GR edition is far more interesting than a 228i for the enthusiast. BMW makes some seriously boring cars these days.

[Rafichicago]

I’ve been going through this thread and I cannot stop laughing on how those financially responsible, doing correct math, cost per mile, rather doing something with money than spend on the car etc are swapping completely perfect car every three years…

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

I’ve been going through this thread and I cannot stop laughing on how those financially responsible, doing correct math, cost per mile, rather doing something with money than spend on the car etc are swapping completely perfect car every three years…

Now you've gone and done it! Poked the bear.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

I’ve been going through this thread and I cannot stop laughing on how those financially responsible, doing correct math, cost per mile, rather doing something with money than spend on the car etc are swapping completely perfect car every three years…

Not a flame, but what you wrote is not particularly clear. I think it says leasing a car every 3 years is wasteful (?). If you could clarify.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Not a flame, but what you wrote is not particularly clear. I think it says leasing a car every 3 years is wasteful (?). If you could clarify.

What I am reading here is that some point out how lease vs buy makes more some we since it can cost less vs eating up depreciation of purchased one and how some would not want to own depreciating assets since actually owning them is meaninglesss to some, yet than justifying that being financially smarter. Some would say that it’s because people drive cars that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford ( I am not one of them do not really care honestly who drives what) Now how is getting new vehicle every 3 years financially responsible? I’d like to find that out. There’s gotta be something that some of here don’t know.

[BMWCCA1]

If you could accurately predict what your new BMW will be worth in three-years, you'd be able to determine whether leasing or buying is a better deal for you.

But, since you can't, Leasing makes it so you don't have to care about depreciation or end-value. You know your total cost over the three years and that's it. You can't predict that if you purchase.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

What I am reading here is that some point out how lease vs buy makes more some we since it can cost less vs eating up depreciation of purchased one and how some would not want to own depreciating assets since actually owning them is meaninglesss to some, yet than justifying that being financially smarter. Some would say that it’s because people drive cars that they otherwise wouldn’t be able to afford ( I am not one of them do not really care honestly who drives what) Now how is getting new vehicle every 3 years financially responsible? I’d like to find that out. There’s gotta be something that some of here don’t know.

You're inferring that those of us who lease are saying what we are doing is financially "responsible". What I do with cars is incredibly expensive...it would be much cheaper to buy a car and keep it 10 years and thus more "financially responsible". Thats not what I want to do though.

Life is not about doing what is always the most "financially responsible" thing. You can make an argument that spending money on anything that is beyond the minimum required for you to survive is not financially responsible. Eating out is financially irresponsible, so are vacations, so are televisions and boats and memberships to country clubs, yet people spend on all those things and also take care of what they need to take care of. You have to enjoy your life too. I see you skiing in your avatar, you could have used the money you have spent on skiing to invest, you own older but still expensive and expensive to maintain cars when you could drive something much more economical...does that make you "financially irresponsible"? To some people it might.

You and people like you assume that spending a lot of money unnecessarily on a car hurts people like me financially. It doesn't. I am able to do all the financially responsible things I need to do AND spend a lot of money leasing cars that I enjoy. If I weren't able to do that then I wouldn't be spending the amount of money on cars that I do. Leasing is more economical than buying for me given the way in which I use a car, meaning I'm going to replace it in 3-4 years regardless because I want something new.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

You're inferring that those of us who lease are saying what we are doing is financially "responsible". What I do with cars is incredibly expensive...it would be much cheaper to buy a car and keep it 10 years and thus more "financially responsible".

What we are saying is we don't care. Life is not about doing what is always the most "financially responsible" thing. You can make an argument that spending money on anything that is beyond the minimum required for you to survive is not financially responsible. Eating out is financially irresponsible, so are vacations, so are televisions and boats and memberships to country clubs, yet people spend on all those things and also take care of what they need to take care of. You have to enjoy your life too.

You and people like you assume that spending a lot of money unnecessarily on a car hurts people like me financially. It doesn't. I am able to do all the financially responsible things I need to do AND spend a lot of money leasing cars that I enjoy. If I weren't able to do that then I wouldn't be spending the amount of money on cars that I do. Leasing is more economical than buying for me given the way in which I use a car, meaning I'm going to replace it in 3-4 years regardless because I want something new.

Agree with this statement. That’s why I did not mention anything with doing what someone likes or feels comfortable with what I meant I said not more not less. Few posts back few days ago I said this.
Why not just say that I do it cause I can and not apply some weird logic behind it ? That’s all. I am not her to tell anyone what to do with its own money. I just fine logic in explaining buy vs lease ridiculous to say the least I am not even sure why you felt being called out here

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Agree with this statement. That’s why I did not mention anything with doing what someone likes or feels comfortable with what I meant I said not more not less. Few posts back few days ago I said this.
Why not just say that I do it cause I can and not apply some weird logic behind it ? That’s all. I am not her to tell anyone what to do with its own money. I just fine logic in explaining buy vs lease ridiculous to say the least I am not even sure why you felt being called out here

Don't feel called out at all...and I did repeatedly say I do it because I can.

There is certainly logic in buy vs lease, it all depends on how long you are going to keep the car. if you are happy buying and keeping it for 6+ years then you should buy, if you see yourself trading in 5 years down the line or sooner, then leasing really may make more sense financially.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by BMWCCA1

If you could accurately predict what your new BMW will be worth in three-years, you'd be able to determine whether leasing or buying is a better deal for you.

But, since you can't, Leasing makes it so you don't have to care about depreciation or end-value. You know your total cost over the three years and that's it. You can't predict that if you purchase.

By leasing you are technically paying for depreciation plus use. It’s not like depreciation magically disappears. Majority of BMW’s that we all like have terrible depreciation. It comes with owning so called luxury premium brand so you can more or less predict that it’ll be worth 50% after 3-4 years or so. It makes sense for people owning business than they write that depreciation as an expense. Than comes usage. If one drives a lot it hardly ever makes sense. The way I see leasing is just like any other expensive hobby that in some cases might be easier on the wallet in some circumstances, but presenting it as some magical solution… I like having no debt and no payments. The only debt I find smart is business related. I hate consumer debt. I am and have been against it for many reasons. To each it’s own.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

By leasing you are technically paying for depreciation plus use. It’s not like depreciation magically disappears. Majority of BMW’s that we all like have terrible depreciation. It comes with owning so called luxury premium brand so you can more or less predict that it’ll be worth 50% after 3-4 years or so. It makes sense for people owning business than they write that depreciation as an expense. Than comes usage. If one drives a lot it hardly ever makes sense. The way I see leasing is just like any other expensive hobby that in some cases might be easier on the wallet in some circumstances, but presenting it as some magical solution… I like having no debt and no payments. The only debt I find smart is business related. I hate consumer debt. I am and have been against it for many reasons. To each it’s own.

What it does is present what the depreciation will be upfront so its not a variable. You drive the car for a number of years for a set cost and thats it.

Thats great that works for you, just don't present what works for you as being the only intelligent option (not saying you have done that but others do). Debt to me is a tool, if I want to aquire a $140,000 vehicle for 3 years I don't see why I would want to pull $140,000 in cash out of performing investments to avoid paying 4% interest and making monthly payments...

[Revan]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

What it does is present what the depreciation will be upfront so its not a variable. You drive the car for a number of years for a set cost and thats it.

Thats great that works for you, just don't present what works for you as being the only intelligent option (not saying you have done that but others do). Debt to me is a tool, if I want to aquire a $140,000 vehicle for 3 years I don't see why I would want to pull $140,000 in cash out of performing investments to avoid paying 4% interest and making monthly payments...

Very well stated. Liquid net worth is much more important. Same reason I wouldn't pay cash for a house.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by Revan

Very well stated. Liquid net worth is much more important. Same reason I wouldn't pay cash for a house.

Totally, mortgage interest rates are so low (they are still low) and tax deductible, zero reason to pay cash for a house or to try and pay one off early unless you're going into retirement and just want no bills.

[DrVenture]

What do you consider liquidity? Cash, MMF, CD, stock market?

The stock market is less liquid than many people think. It can, and has, dropped 10% in days. Then most folks are extremely hesitant to sell, meanwhile it dribbles down another 10% and you are even less likely to sell. That is not my version of liquidity. Selling stocks can also trigger big cap gains, making matters worse.

Home equity can be tapped in days, and with the SALT caps in place now, mortgage debt is not nearly as friendly as it used to be. The new standard deduction essentially gets many the tax break without the actual interest payments. That is win/win for me.

I understand the power of liquidity (leverage), but unless you use it, it is merely psychological. And once you do utilize it, it is no longer liquidity. I have too much right now in MMF, due to circumstances, but it is earning me a little over 5%, so I wait. By using that money to buy a used car, As I just did, I am lending to myself at ~5%. far better than what I could get on the open market. And after considering tax on that 5%, it is closer to 4%.

I am not so much disagreeing here with anyone, just pointing out alternatives. And staying flexible in my thinking. As has been discussed previously, there is often a balance/disconnect between "I do because I can" and the best financial decision.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

What do you consider liquidity? Cash, MMF, CD, stock market?

The stock market is less liquid than many people think. It can, and has, dropped 10% in days. Then most folks are extremely hesitant to sell, meanwhile it dribbles down another 10% and you are even less likely to sell. That is not my version of liquidity. Selling stocks can also trigger big cap gains, making matters worse.

Home equity can be tapped in days, and with the SALT caps in place now, mortgage debt is not nearly as friendly as it used to be. The new standard deduction essentially gets many the tax break without the actual interest payments. That is win/win for me.

I understand the power of liquidity (leverage), but unless you use it, it is merely psychological. And once you do utilize it, it is no longer liquidity. I have too much right now in MMF, due to circumstances, but it is earning me a little over 5%, so I wait. By using that money to buy a used car, As I just did, I am lending to myself at ~5%. far better than what I could get on the open market. And after considering tax on that 5%, it is closer to 4%.

I am not so much disagreeing here with anyone, just pointing out alternatives. And staying flexible in my thinking. As has been discussed previously, there is often a balance/disconnect between "I do because I can" and the best financial decision.

There are always alternatives and like I said there isn't any one right way. If you have growing net worth and you are also enjoying your life, you are doing it right regardless of what it is that you are doing.

As for the standard deduction I still do way better itemizing deductions, even with the SALT limitations.

[RPM33]

Originally Posted by KevinGS

Because BMW lease deals are often pretty damn good. Mercedes leases aren't bad. Porsche leases generally stink.

I usually buy because I drive a lot, and I never want to care about keeping the miles low. And I tend to marry my cars for 7+ years, if not longer.

I buy cars that I fall in love with, especially after a few mods...

Do the number of leases lead to higher depreciation? Also, the G90 M5 is an embarrassment and most likely a high depreciation car.

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

I would argue a FWD 228 is a vehicle that shouldn’t exist at all, it’s bad for BMW’s brand. It’s certainly more interesting than a Corolla though.

The 2 series as well as the X1, is for BMW what the Range Rover Evoque, and Land Rover Discovery Sport are for Land Rover. They are entry level vehicles designed for younger people who want to drive the Premium luxury Brands, but can't really afford a "Real" BMW or Range Rover. It allows them to create brand loyalty, in hopes those people will move up when they are financially able. Also for those more affluent, they also might show brand loyalty by purchasing one for their children as Graduation and/or Wedding gifts.

[Dégoûté]

If no one leased, there would be no used cars to buy. Its symbiotic.

[amol24]

many people want to drive a lot of different cars so the flexibility a lease provides over buying a car allows them to do that

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

The 2 series as well as the X1, is for BMW what the Range Rover Evoque, and Land Rover Discovery Sport are for Land Rover. They are entry level vehicles designed for younger people who want to drive the Premium luxury Brands, but can't really afford a "Real" BMW or Range Rover. It allows them to create brand loyalty, in hopes those people will move up when they are financially able. Also for those more affluent, they also might show brand loyalty by purchasing one for their children as Graduation and/or Wedding gifts.

Ultimately IMO its self defeating as it diminishes the brand, clogs up dealer service departments, etc.