[rlove]

Originally Posted by jas165

Is the decision not to make the CS available as a manual mainly a financial one in that the cost of production would outweigh the take rate? Or is there some other reason?

BMW claims the 6 speed manual transmission has a maximum torque capacity of around 435 ft lb.

The ZF automatic comes in several variants of significantly higher limits.

This is the same reason why the 2025 M2 with 6MT produces slightly less power than with an automatic, and also why everyone is moving away from DCT transmissions — the ZF is reliably capable of handling so much more power. Of course Porsche is an existence proof that you can make it work ...

I'll stick to my 6MT

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by JABCAT

Considering a C8 Stingray with a 500 hp V8 is $65k, what you describe above should be about $35k max. And at that price just by a C6 or C5 Z06 if you want a driver's sports car. But why would you buy a 4 or 6 cylinder Corvette? A Corvette is what it is, just like the M2 is what it is. Buy something else that fits the criteria you want instead of bastardizing current performance vehicles.

I guess I’d like corvette to build an Emira fighter. And although you can buy a 65k vette, it’s not great, it’s what the guy was saying before, a numbers car. IMO the best $75k sports car sold today is a $95k 718s. Stupid Porsche, I’m so mad at them.

[BradMX5]

Originally Posted by rlove

BMW claims the 6 speed manual transmission has a maximum torque capacity of around 435 ft lb.

The ZF automatic comes in several variants of significantly higher limits.

This is the same reason why the 2025 M2 with 6MT produces slightly less power than with an automatic, and also why everyone is moving away from DCT transmissions — the ZF is reliably capable of handling so much more power. Of course Porsche is an existence proof that you can make it work ...

I'll stick to my 6MT

I thought it was the clutch and not the transmission that couldn’t handle the power and that’s why people were upgrading the clutch to go 700+

[garageoverflow]

Still don't understand why they can't make a manual that holds more. I guess they don't want to.

I'd be interested in hearing more about upgraded clutches that can take the 700+ HP these cars get from simple bolt ons and a tune.

I'm increasingly diehard manual these days.

[jas165]

Originally Posted by rlove

BMW claims the 6 speed manual transmission has a maximum torque capacity of around 435 ft lb.

The ZF automatic comes in several variants of significantly higher limits.

This is the same reason why the 2025 M2 with 6MT produces slightly less power than with an automatic, and also why everyone is moving away from DCT transmissions — the ZF is reliably capable of handling so much more power. Of course Porsche is an existence proof that you can make it work ...

I'll stick to my 6MT

I doubt that. If that were the case, they could increase the horsepower but keep the torque the same like they did with the 3.0 CSL, which has just as much torque as my base G80 but about 80 horsepower more.

[kenairways]

Originally Posted by Bumpinjeep

No, a good portion of people see cars as a numbers game. The higher the number the better. And will chase that instead of the driving experience. So an M4 is better than an M2, a M5 is better than the M4, the M8 is the best. The higher the horsepower the better and with X Drive, you're able to put down crazy acceleration numbers from standstill, so there's more to brag about.
Of course when a new model comes out, they will buy that as well but if it doesn't have the numbers, it's traded in for another model that does, quickly. Even if it's a better driving experience because that's hard to brag about.

Yeah 100%, that car culture mindset is toxic.

I was never a BMW fan until I learned how BMW design their performance cars and I was hooked after being exposed to the BMW driving experience. So I spec out my G87 and ever since delivery, I can't stop smiling while driving it!

[rlove]

Originally Posted by jas165

I doubt that. If that were the case, they could increase the horsepower but keep the torque the same like they did with the 3.0 CSL, which has just as much torque as my base G80 but about 80 horsepower more.

This is exactly what they did with the 2025 M2: The automatic has +20 HP and +37 ft-lbs, while the manual only has +20 HP with no torque increase.

[deneed4spd]

I ponder how the Toyota MR2 with 400 hp with awd and manual fits into the mix of taking down porche. Heard it will weigh around 2900 lbs.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

I ponder how the Toyota MR2 with 400 hp with awd and manual fits into the mix of taking down porche. Heard it will weigh around 2900 lbs.

🤣

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

I ponder how the Toyota MR2 with 400 hp with awd and manual fits into the mix of taking down porche. Heard it will weigh around 2900 lbs.

Pic/link?

[deneed4spd]

Originally Posted by ourlee

Pic/link?

https://www.carthrottle.com/news/toy...cessor-rumours

This is this a rumor thread. Maybe it won’t come to fruition, but it would be cool if it did.

[ourlee]

Wow I LOVE that. My wife said “that doesn’t look very comfortable”. ……sigh

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by CryptoM2

Probably because of torque limitations on the manual.

Nothing new in higher power cars as explained back in 2015 by R&D of Chief of Lamborghini here in Frankfurt at the Autoshow:
--------------------------------
Lamborghini R&D Chief Explains Why Manual Transmissions are Dead

Maurizio Reggiani, head of R&D at Lamborghini, loves a true manual transmission. But in an interview with R&T, he explains why you'll never see one again in a new Lamborghini.
By Bob SorokanichPublished: Sep 25, 2015


Lamborghinis are supposed to be about raw emotion: the scream of a V12 engine, the thrill of mile-wide tires scrambling for grip, the joy of driving something built without a single care thrown toward convenience, practicality, or the rigors of everyday humdrum life.

You'd think a manual transmission would fit the formula perfectly.

But at the Frankfurt Auto Show last week, R&T sat down with Maurizio Reggiani, Director of Research and Development at Lamborghini. And while the Lamborghini news at the show was the introduction of the Huracán LP 610-4 Spyder, we couldn't help asking Mr. Reggiani a question that's been weighing on our minds: Is the dream of a manual-transmission Lamborghini dead?

"Unfortunately I must say yes," he told us. "All the systems that are integrated in the car need to have a dialog with one another. The clutch is one of the fuses of the system, whether you're engaging or disengaging the torque. This creates a hole in the communication between what the engine is able to provide and how the car reacts to the power of the engine. For this reason, unfortunately, I must say I am sure that in a premium supersports car like the Huracán, we will only do a semiautomatic.

"Unfortunately, it's the demand of the control of the chassis," he continued. "If you want to control the chassis, you must control the power. If you want to control the power, the clutch must be under the control of the brain of the car, not your brain."

This decision wasn't easy, and Mr. Reggiani understands the yearning among traditionalists for a three-pedal Lamborghini. But he brings up a very good point about modern manual transmissions, one that doesn't get discussed very often among three-pedal evangelists: Today's manual transmissions aren't the pure, directly-connected driver's experience you think they are.

It all comes down to the mechanics of what happens when you push the clutch pedal. "Remember, when you put a servo system between your feet and the clutch, you have already put a filter in there. For me, the most pure expression of the manual transmission is when with your foot you push all the load that is necessary to disengage the clutch."

So when people pining for manual transmissions hold up today's three-pedal sports cars as standard bearers of purity, it puzzles Mr. Reggiani. "In all the latest manual transmissions, there is a servo that reduces the load [of the clutch pedal]," he explains. "If we want to talk about the purist [experience], we must go back 20 years, not 10 years, because already these filters were in place.

Then there's the practical side. "I've been working for Lamborghini for 20 years. I started at the time of the Diablo, [which had] a clutch without a servo. You needed 40 kilograms of force to disengage the clutch. At that time, we were making 450 N m of torque. Now we are at 690. It's a problem to manage the closing point of the clutch. If you have hesitation, with this torque you'll burn the clutch immediately.

"And unfortunately not everybody can be a super expert, but everybody wants to buy the car and nobody wants to appear stupid. For this, you must put the servo in there, and if you put the servo in there you disengage the really mechanical feeling between you and the engine."

In other words, if you want a Lamborghini with power like the 740-hp Aventador LP750-4 SV, you're gonna have to settle for a transmission that's smarter than you. As for Mr. Reggiani? When he wants to get that purist mechanical feel, he hops in his 1966 Alfa Romeo Duetto, with a manual transmission and no servos in sight.

[JABCAT]

My 600 whp/ 560 wtq Z06 does just fine with a manual transmission. As did the 2019 ZR1 with 755 hp/ 715 ft lb. Manufactures would make a manual if they accounted for more than 25% of sales. Fact.

[BradMX5]

The Koenigsegg CC850 has 1400hp with a gated 6 speed as well as some others pushing over 1000hp so I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can build them for half that power if they wanted.

[Tag]

BMWBLOG: 2025 BMW M2 CS Could Launch with Velvet Blue as a Key Color Option

[ajchoi]

Originally Posted by BradMX5

The Koenigsegg CC850 has 1400hp with a gated 6 speed as well as some others pushing over 1000hp so I'm pretty sure car manufacturers can build them for half that power if they wanted.

Originally Posted by rlove

BMW claims the 6 speed manual transmission has a maximum torque capacity of around 435 ft lb.

The ZF automatic comes in several variants of significantly higher limits.

This is the same reason why the 2025 M2 with 6MT produces slightly less power than with an automatic, and also why everyone is moving away from DCT transmissions — the ZF is reliably capable of handling so much more power. Of course Porsche is an existence proof that you can make it work ...

I'll stick to my 6MT

AND!!!! Cadillac proved you can push 650 lb-ft torque through a manual transmission (I believe theirs is a tremec) with RWD, so it's feasible that there's manuals that could be used for way more than what the M2 outputs lol.

I think what they'll probably claim is that with manual and RWD in a car that size, more torque than what they're providing is a liability, idk, seems like a bad excuse not to have more manuals so far haha

[BroDoze]

Red/black buckets! I want the red/black buckets.

[BroDoze]

CS is going to be awesome.

So why do they keep calling it a 2025 M2CS?

Since it’s being built in August of 2025, wouldn’t it be the 2026 M2CS?

[BradMX5]

It’ll probably be MY26 officially but most people probably just call it by the year it starts production.

[MineralGreyMetallic]

I thought the issue was that BMW did not want to invest in a new 6-speed because they don't see it as a worthwhile investment. Isn't that why we're still using the F87's 6-speed and the gearing isn't optimal?

Of course BMW is more than capable of building a 6-speed that can handle the extra power.

[hb]

Originally Posted by MineralGreyMetallic

I thought the issue was that BMW did not want to invest in a new 6-speed because they don't see it as a worthwhile investment. Isn't that why we're still using the F87's 6-speed and the gearing isn't optimal?

Of course BMW is more than capable of building a 6-speed that can handle the extra power.

We might get one someday in the future.