[someguywithanm3]

I remember reading similar threads before the housing bubble burst/economy took a dump. I hope we don't go through that again anytime soon.

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by David70

but at the same time they couldn't seem to grasp that my pay would stay the same but I would effectively move up a couple of income levels. Suddenly buying a new car and a house was easily obtainable. Then, like this post they continued to live in one of the most expensive areas for housing costs while complaining about high housing costs. Like living in Arizona and complaining about the heat.

I see a lot of people complaining about housing prices. I don't really mind. Of course, having a huge mansion that you would see on MTV Cribs sounds fun, but I am too spoiled living where I live. The proximity to things I enjoy cannot really be found in much lower cost of living areas. Plus, I don't think I would want a really huge house. Of course it would be fun to look at when you drive up, but other than that... oh wells

Regarding moving up income levels. It's funny to hear about doctors and how their med school friends are living in LCOL areas making twice what they make.

At a bar in the mid west-
Girl: Oh, you're a doctor? Where behind the gates do you live?"

At a bar in Orange County -
Girl: Oh, you're a doctor? What apartment complex are you in?

Originally Posted by someguywithanm3

I remember reading similar threads before the housing bubble burst/economy took a dump. I hope we don't go through that again anytime soon.

Save your pennies for the next recession. If you have enough of them, you can stand to make a pretty penny using them.

[uberschnell]

Originally Posted by fravel

Field of study doesn't matter (did my undergrad in biomedical engineering). Financing an education just isn't a path to financial freedom anymore and shouldn't be looked at as one. If someone else wants to pay for it (or you can do so in cash) and you have a genuine interest in the field of study, then more power to you, but it's a waste of time and money if you have to finance it, period.

Your second point is the boat myself and many of the kids my age find themselves in - we were always told "Get good grades so you can get into a good college or you'll be working at McDonald's". I had no delusions about pursuing a worthless degree, I chose something that was difficult with the expectation that it would be a worthwhile effort. I was wrong. You can't get a job without already having experience in the field, and you can't get experience without a job. Co-op programs/internships are so common now that companies don't even consider that as experience anymore, just another filter.

The shitty part is that I'm actually worse off for even trying.

The world aint fair and while you are sitting there crying about it and finding reasons why this is everybody else's fault someone else just took your place in line.

[Mr Tonka]

I don't know why everyone is all over fravel . The only thing he's bitching about is the ROI on his education. Not only has he been polite in the face of name calling and insults, but he has a valid point. The ROI for higher education is becoming less and less and has been for some time now. This is not his opinion, it's fact.

It's not because he isn't doing the most with his education, it's because the education cost so much. In the coming years you'll likely see a drastic drop in collegiate attendance simply because people can't afford it and they'll be catching on that graduating into a very competitive business world with 6 figures of educational debt isn't wise either. The tipping point is close and if the higher education system can't figure out how to curb some of the expense of college, you'll see many universities in major trouble. They've all been spending at an exceptional rate for the last 10 - 15 years in an effort to make themselves more attractive to potential students. Nothing they are doing is sustainable.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by uberschnell

The world aint fair and while you are sitting there crying about it and finding reasons why this is everybody else's fault someone else just took your place in line.

I'm well aware, never said it should be. To stick with your analogy of a "waiting in line"...the line that everyone is standing in is closed. I should have been standing in a different line completely (trade school) - I'm trying to tell people to stop wasting time standing behind me, cause the line ain't going anywhere.

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I don't know why everyone is all over fravel . The only thing he's bitching about is the ROI on his education. Not only has he been polite in the face of name calling and insults, but he has a valid point. The ROI for higher education is becoming less and less and has been for some time now. This is not his opinion, it's fact.

It's not because he isn't doing the most with his education, it's because the education cost so much. In the coming years you'll likely see a drastic drop in collegiate attendance simply because people can't afford it and they'll be catching on that graduating into a very competitive business world with 6 figures of educational debt isn't wise either. The tipping point is close and if the higher education system can't figure out how to curb some of the expense of college, you'll see many universities in major trouble. They've all been spending at an exceptional rate for the last 10 - 15 years in an effort to make themselves more attractive to potential students. Nothing they are doing is sustainable.

Everybody loves to hate on "the entitled millenials".

You get it.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I don't know why everyone is all over fravel . The only thing he's bitching about is the ROI on his education. Not only has he been polite in the face of name calling and insults, but he has a valid point. The ROI for higher education is becoming less and less and has been for some time now. This is not his opinion, it's fact.

It's not because he isn't doing the most with his education, it's because the education cost so much. In the coming years you'll likely see a drastic drop in collegiate attendance simply because people can't afford it and they'll be catching on that graduating into a very competitive business world with 6 figures of educational debt isn't wise either. The tipping point is close and if the higher education system can't figure out how to curb some of the expense of college, you'll see many universities in major trouble. They've all been spending at an exceptional rate for the last 10 - 15 years in an effort to make themselves more attractive to potential students. Nothing they are doing is sustainable.

I haven't seen name calling and insults but your comments are predicated on a misunderstanding of why he's being criticized. He made the decision to go to university, to undertake a specific program, and to pursue a certain career. He now wants to sulk about his circumstances in light of his decision making. He could have learned all of what he knows now before ever undertaking his particular educational track.

I will also challenge your basic assumption about the value of a university education. Setting aside successful entrepreneurship, to succeed in most workplaces into positions that carry 6 figure plus incomes requires some form of university education. It doesn't have to field specific but the advantages of being a prospective candidate with a bachelor's degree are indisputable. That won't change. What has changed is the length of time to realize that ROI. I would agree it takes longer today, but the underlying merits of a college degree are still valid.

I've hired lots of people over the years in my various roles. When I see a University degree, I see: someone who has a certain ability to self-motivate; complete what they've started; the inherent resourcefulness necessary to complete a degree (whether it's meeting the financial burden or managing the social stressors that go with college life); a capacity for critical thought; and a certain ability to articulate and communicate (especially in writing). It is not the only way to demonstrate those traits and I have hired people without a university degree, but they have a higher burden to prove all that through the job selection process because I already know that about the other candidates.

fravel's biggest problem (IMO) is that he's thinking too narrow. That degree has significant value in general, not just in his specific field. That's true of all degrees. He can leverage that degree in many different ways and it doesn't have to be in biomedical engineering. He is choosing to lament what he sees as his poor decision making rather than figure out how to capitalize on his investment. He should focus on the latter because he certainly can capitalize on it. If you were to conduct a poll on this forum of people who make $100K+, I'm would estimate that a significant majority have at least a bachelor's degree.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

I haven't seen name calling and insults but your comments are predicated on a misunderstanding of why he's being criticized. He made the decision to go to university, to undertake a specific program, and to pursue a certain career. He now wants to sulk about his circumstances in light of his decision making. He could have learned all of what he knows now before ever undertaking his particular educational track.

I started college pre-recession. The economy literally flopped while I was in school - they even had to give some of my classmates concessions on their co-op requirements because they couldn't get jobs.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

I will also challenge your basic assumption about the value of a university education. Setting aside successful entrepreneurship, to succeed in most workplaces into positions that carry 6 figure plus incomes requires some form of university education. It doesn't have to field specific but the advantages of being a prospective candidate with a bachelor's degree are indisputable. That won't change. What has changed is the length of time to realize that ROI. I would agree it takes longer today, but the underlying merits of a college degree are still valid.

For like the 6th time, if one doesn't have to finance their education, then everyone agrees they will do well. For those of us without the silver spoon to fund our education, it's a fruitless endeavor.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

I've hired lots of people over the years in my various roles. When I see a University degree, I see: someone who has a certain ability to self-motivate; complete what they've started; the inherent resourcefulness necessary to complete a degree (whether it's meeting the financial burden or managing the social stressors that go with college life); a capacity for critical thought; and a certain ability to articulate and communicate (especially in writing). It is not the only way to demonstrate those traits and I have hired people without a university degree, but they have a higher burden to prove all that through the job selection process because I already know that about the other candidates.

And my point is that the jobs you've hired people for aren't the only options. There are other paths, and they should be explored. Stop misleading people by pretending there is only one way.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

fravel's biggest problem (IMO) is that he's thinking too narrow. That degree has significant value in general, not just in his specific field. That's true of all degrees. He can leverage that degree in many different ways and it doesn't have to be in biomedical engineering. He is choosing to lament what he sees as his poor decision making rather than figure out how to capitalize on his investment. He should focus on the latter because he certainly can capitalize on it. If you were to conduct a poll on this forum of people who make $100K+, I'm would estimate that a significant majority have at least a bachelor's degree.

Again, it does not matter what you make, what matters is what you get to keep. I actually EARN a fair bit of money (thanks to my degree, I won't deny that); but I don't get to keep any of it, and it will be 20 more years or so until I do. That's not worthwhile.

[Alfisti]

The most successful people I know are blue collar business owners. They are done with school some 10 FREAKIN YEARS before your average university post-grad so a) get a massive head start on earnings, b) have way, way less debt bogging them down and c) make great money doing something simple like driving a dump truck.

Unless you're doing medicine or law or something super serious, uni has made little to no sense for 15 years now.

[Mr Tonka]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

I haven't seen name calling and insults but your comments are predicated on a misunderstanding of why he's being criticized. He made the decision to go to university, to undertake a specific program, and to pursue a certain career. He now wants to sulk about his circumstances in light of his decision making. He could have learned all of what he knows now before ever undertaking his particular educational track.

I will also challenge your basic assumption about the value of a university education. Setting aside successful entrepreneurship, to succeed in most workplaces into positions that carry 6 figure plus incomes requires some form of university education. It doesn't have to field specific but the advantages of being a prospective candidate with a bachelor's degree are indisputable. That won't change. What has changed is the length of time to realize that ROI. I would agree it takes longer today, but the underlying merits of a college degree are still valid.

I've hired lots of people over the years in my various roles. When I see a University degree, I see: someone who has a certain ability to self-motivate; complete what they've started; the inherent resourcefulness necessary to complete a degree (whether it's meeting the financial burden or managing the social stressors that go with college life); a capacity for critical thought; and a certain ability to articulate and communicate (especially in writing). It is not the only way to demonstrate those traits and I have hired people without a university degree, but they have a higher burden to prove all that through the job selection process because I already know that about the other candidates.

fravel's biggest problem (IMO) is that he's thinking too narrow. That degree has significant value in general, not just in his specific field. That's true of all degrees. He can leverage that degree in many different ways and it doesn't have to be in biomedical engineering. He is choosing to lament what he sees as his poor decision making rather than figure out how to capitalize on his investment. He should focus on the latter because he certainly can capitalize on it. If you were to conduct a poll on this forum of people who make $100K+, I'm would estimate that a significant majority have at least a bachelor's degree.

I'm not going to go back and quote every insult however minor they may have been. But your own choice of words when saying he's sulking, applies to my statement. It's like when you hire someone and they turn out to be a dud. You're mildly upset about your decision to hire that person because maybe you should have known better, maybe if you knew what you knew now, you wouldn't have hired them. On top of that, you're kind of pissed about the extra work and time it's going to take you to get someone good in that position. It's not sulking.

Bitching, venting, even ranting, but not sulking. Sulking is something a spoiled brat does when things don't go their way. Spoiled brats don't finance and pay for their own education. Implying such is something i would find insulting if it were directed at me.

I made no statements about the value of a college education. High or low ROI doesn't equal high or low value.

[csu87]

We still on this?

Everyone quit and do construction. I just paid my superintendent more than I made this week cause of all the OT he put in. Unfortunately, I was working OT right there with him but im salary.

He has no degree and i do

The benefit to a degree IMO is that while we both make the same or similar amounts of money, I do my work from the chair in my office or the seat of my truck, while he is doing manual labor. The degree doesnt guarantee you will make a ton of money, but it does give you the opportunity for better jobs.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by fravel

For like the 6th time, if one doesn't have to finance their education, then everyone agrees they will do well. For those of us without the silver spoon to fund our education, it's a fruitless endeavor.

Why would you suggest that I had a silver spoon? No such thing. I paid my entire way, including rent, food, and beer.

Originally Posted by fravel

And my point is that the jobs you've hired people for aren't the only options. There are other paths, and they should be explored. Stop misleading people by pretending there is only one way.

I never said there was only one way. Your misquoting me. I challenged your assertion that, based on your experience, university is a waste of time. I probably should have been more blunt: if all you got out of college was a degree you feel you can't use to distance yourself from where you would have been without it ... than you wasted your time. That doesn't mean that others who pursue a college education are wasting theirs.

Originally Posted by fravel

Again, it does not matter what you make, what matters is what you get to keep. I actually EARN a fair bit of money (thanks to my degree, I won't deny that); but I don't get to keep any of it, and it will be 20 more years or so until I do. That's not worthwhile.

Not worthwhile for you because of the decisions you made and the situation you are in. That doesn't equate to the general proposition you're making respecting the overall value. I am not challenging that you might have been better off doing something different. I am taking issue with the generalization you are drawing and with your self-pity.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by csu87

We still on this?

Everyone quit and do construction. I just paid my superintendent more than I made this week cause of all the OT he put in. Unfortunately, I was working OT right there with him but im salary.

He has no degree and i do

The benefit to a degree IMO is that while we both make the same or similar amounts of money, I do my work from the chair in my office or the seat of my truck, while he is doing manual labor. The degree doesnt guarantee you will make a ton of money, but it does give you the opportunity for better jobs.

This!

I've never suggested that a degree is the only route to success. I wouldn't even go so far as to say it's the only route to white collar success. However, it is the single biggest tool to open more doors for more opportunity than anything else you can do. That has economic and lifestyle value.

[Hair Führer]

When are the reults being shared?

[Teufel_Hunden]

Maybe my route was much different than most if those who are discussing college loan debt.

Enlisted in the Marines after high school and served 6 years. Used the GI Bill to earn an Undergraduate degree in Business, then an MBA. Zero student debt.

My older son enlisted in the Navy last year and my younger son just graduated high school last night. I've spent a considerable amount of time talking to them about student loan debt and have also had a few of my friends who had debt speak to them about their experiences. Younger son is not really looking at the military route, so he is off to the local community college in the fall which I can just pay for (and he'll live at home). Damn if I'm going to pay or have him go into debt to take general education requirements the first year.

I do agree, however that most kids don't have guidance when it comes to student loans. They are told to sign on the dotted line and register for classes without really understanding what they are in for. Shame on the institutions of "higher education" for taking advantage of naive 18 year olds who don't have the life experience (and in most cases, parental guidance) to really understand what they are committing to.

I also won't these kids completely off the hook. You should always understand what you are committing to before signing those loan papers. Sit down for 5 minutes and do the math.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

The most successful people I know are blue collar business owners. They are done with school some 10 FREAKIN YEARS before your average university post-grad so a) get a massive head start on earnings, b) have way, way less debt bogging them down and c) make great money doing something simple like driving a dump truck.

Unless you're doing medicine or law or something super serious, uni has made little to no sense for 15 years now.

This is an extreme way of thinking of things. There are probably 10 failed businesses and related owners to every 1 successful one. And a shit ton of investment into said failed businesses all down the drain. Even running a business is also the same ROI calculation as getting a degree. I know people to own and operate restaurants. A lot of them actually quit after 5-10 years. Their time and effort involved isn't worth the longer term monetary return.

Basically, not everyone is cut out to run a business. If you're good at something technical, that doesn't mean you know how to run a successful business. Hell, it doesn't even mean you know who'll buy your goods/services.

Plus, you simply bringing up broad categories like medicine or law as examples just shows that you know nothing about ROI on education. There are ton of medical degrees that don't payback for over 15 years. The ones that do payback immediately are the most competitive field in med school, i.e. not every pre-med student is accepted to learn that field. Further there are more people out there with law degrees than practicing lawyers. Think about that, and you tell me whether generally a law degree pays back.

It all comes down to selecting a school that is top in a certain field, and that a person has the ability to be above average student and worker in that field.

Even in booming industries, there's not guarantees.
If you want to work in tech as a developer, the ones that pay off are for people who went to Stanford, Berkeley and the likes, who thinks about what the market wants and how to achieve it through app development. The community college developer will get a job as a staff coder, but his job is being outsourced to India....And if you don't keep up with current coding language, you'll be stuck supporting FORTRAN as the company looks to cut the language and your job.

You want to do investment banking? If you don't do an undergrad at a school with recruiting and alumni connections in Chicago or NYC, you're out of luck. Don't even bother going into investment banking if your MBA program is below the top 5.

You want to do accounting? If you don't go to a top 15 accounting school and get your CPA, you're going to be a dead-end staff account job counting and auditing numbers of nuts and bolts for Ace Hardware.

You want to be a lawyer? If you didn't attend a top 10 law school, you're not getting in on a summer associate at a top law firm. You're not getting into securities or transactions law or the most complex fields. You're certainly not going to be a patent lawyer if you don't even have a base engineering degree. You'll be like Saul in Better Call Saul.

I can go on and on... It's all about carefully selecting your degree, who you get that degree from, and how you bend and conform to what employment is out there.

[fravel]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Why would you suggest that I had a silver spoon? No such thing. I paid my entire way, including rent, food, and beer.

My apologies, I wasn't implying anything about you, more just speaking to the reality of the current times. Would it be fair to assume that you graduated college more than 10 years ago? Tuition has gone through the roof - you could work for a summer and fund a year of school back then; that's not possible now. No 18 year old kid is making $20k over a summer. Without parental help (the silver spoon), financing is a fact of life if you want to go to college today.

Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck

Not worthwhile for you because of the decisions you made and the situation you are in. That doesn't equate to the general proposition you're making respecting the overall value. I am not challenging that you might have been better off doing something different. I am taking issue with the generalization you are drawing and with your self-pity.

My situation isn't unique though, in fact I'd be willing to bet that it is quickly becoming the norm. There's no self-pity here, just a warning to others.

[csu87]

Originally Posted by Flying Ace

You'll be like Saul in Better Call Saul.

Saul had a pretty good gig till Eisenberg got all greedy.

Originally Posted by fravel

My apologies, I wasn't implying anything about you, more just speaking to the reality of the current times. Would it be fair to assume that you graduated college more than 10 years ago? Tuition has gone through the roof - you could work for a summer and fund a year of school back then; that's not possible now. No 18 year old kid is making $20k over a summer. Without parental help (the silver spoon), financing is a fact of life if you want to go to college today.

I graduated in 2010 after 4.5 years from a state school. Tuition was $15k/year which I paid on a payment plan throughout the entire year. Also worked 35-40hrs during school, and 50-60 or 2 30-40hr jobs during the summer to pay for it and my own apartment/car and other living expenses.

I know guys that have recently graduated that did the same and it can be done, its just not fun. I made it through school with only a few thousand in debt on CC that I was able to pay off with a signing bonus from my company.

Now my sister on the other hand, went to a private school ($40k/semester...) that she paid for a small part of (maybe $10k/year) through her savings and loans and my parents paid the rest. She didnt work during college more then a few part time waitressing jobs and got an OK paying job out of school, but will have debt from her schooling and associated costs of living for years.

Its all about the programs you get into, the cost of that program and looking at what you will be doing 5/10/15... years down the road. I did this and thats why i went to the cheapest school with the highest rated program.

[JohnnyCanuck]

Originally Posted by fravel

My apologies, I wasn't implying anything about you, more just speaking to the reality of the current times. Would it be fair to assume that you graduated college more than 10 years ago? Tuition has gone through the roof - you could work for a summer and fund a year of school back then; that's not possible now. No 18 year old kid is making $20k over a summer. Without parental help (the silver spoon), financing is a fact of life if you want to go to college today.

Yes, more than 10 years ago and I accept that things have changed. But, there is also a regional skew. University tuition is bargain in Canada. It's about $6000 for tuition and student fees for a domestic student in undergrad arts or sciences at UBC (universally considered one of the world's very best universities) ... it's a bargain. I get that an equivalently ranked school in the US (eg. Washington, Wisconsin, Illinois, or NYU) is over $10,000 for the same scenario.

Bimmerpost is international so your calculus on ROI and debt is not universal. Even if I were to accept the underlying rationale of your perspective (which I don't for reasons earlier in this thread), accept that your view is unique to your experience and is not transferable to school, state, country, or course of study. There are so many variables.

[Flying Ace]

Can we bring the thread by to topic?

[PoorLurker]

Originally Posted by Mr Tonka

I don't know why everyone is all over fravel . The tipping point is close and if the higher education system can't figure out how to curb some of the expense of college, you'll see many universities in major trouble.

Is your name Malcolm?


I think FRAVEL needs to look at which areas in the nation have large employment opportunities for his position. Then, he needs to create a document that lists all of the attributes in those areas that he can think of and assign them a point value (weighted scale)

For example, housing cost, access to airports, access to the mountains, nightlife, outdoor activity, food scene, etc. (whatever means something to him)

If he values food more than nightlife, then food will be weighted more.

He should then go through and rank all of those cities based on the attributes that suit him best.

He may notice that the point value system will change which will ultimately help him to decide what he values taking him closer to making a decision about where to live.

Then, he should move.

I had a friend in the Bay Area who did what was mentioned above, found that a city in the Pacific North West worked best for him, sold his Bay Area home, made the move and has really enjoyed the lifestyle change.

I don't know his financial situation and I know we all have financial expenses that don't follow rational, but to be complaining about money and driving a BMW seems a bit odd.

I drive a hand me down and almost wanted to "downsize" to a $3000 civic.

[PoorLurker]

Also, I think many people don't see how people are brainwashed into thinking that a college degree equates to success. Today's generation often expects instant results because they have grown up around instant gratification. Participate in an event, get a ribbon. Click download, photo pops up (no 56k warning needed) They think that a college degree is a hoop to jump through that will land them in opportunity which always isn't the case.

I have seen many people skate through college. Most can't skate through the interview and life, therefore, the opportunities to use the degree may be more limited.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by PoorLurker

Also, I think many people don't see how people are brainwashed into thinking that a college degree equates to success. Today's generation often expects instant results because they have grown up around instant gratification. Participate in an event, get a ribbon. Click download, photo pops up (no 56k warning needed) They think that a college degree is a hoop to jump through that will land them in opportunity which always isn't the case.

I have seen many people skate through college. Most can't skate through the interview and life, therefore, the opportunities to use the degree may be more limited.

this. 100% agreed.

And Bernie Sander's Free College = "$100k jobs promise" (I know, it wasn't a direct promise for jobs, but we all know it was implied) will come back and bite hard, b/c it's still the same damn reality I laid out regardless whether you get community college paid for or not:

It's all about what you study, which college you attend, how good you were in school and how good you are in employment. And how driven you are to get that next job or promotion or salary level. B/c nothing is given out for free. Nothing.

There is no easy street here. Life is hard work. Many who are successful, busted their butt in high school, to get into a difficult college, then busted their butt in college to get into the difficult field of study, then busted their butt in their field of study to not be the average student, and to stand out from their peers.

After getting a job, they then busted their butt at work, and try not to be irrelevant, and learn more stuff, and become indispensable with their employers.

Oh, in addition to executing on this plan, you still need to be able to stand in the batter's box and take a few curve balls and brush backs along the way. THAT IS HOW YOU MAKE IT. Especially if you come from nothing or humble backgrounds.

My parents and I came to this country with $100 in their pocket. Due to factors uncontrollable to them and by poor politics in the birth country, they didn't start their professions in the USA until in their 40s.

Now they're looking to retire comfortably while their son, me, am looking to figure out how to send my daughter to private school and also buy a Porsche. There's a shit ton of education, curve balls, big breaks, sweat and tears in between, but got damn it, in America, if you work smart and hard, you can make it.