[GuidoK]

do you mean on the straight or in the corner where the actual crash happened?
(I was talking about that last one)

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

As I said in previous posts there is no denying his talent. But, he’ll never be a F1 Champion unless he learns to avoid situations like this.

As somebody else said it’ll be interesting/fun to see if Ocon gets into a car/team comparable to MVs and then see what happens.

It would be even more interesting to see Max in a Merc and see what happens..

#Hamiltonsnightmare

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

It would be even more interesting to see Max in a Merc and see what happens..

I don't think they are immune to crashing either.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

I don't think they are immune to crashing either.

I agree. And that's why I posted this picture in # 61 => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1554472&page=3

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

I agree. And that's why I posted this picture in # 61 => https://www.m3post.com/forums/showth...1554472&page=3

FWIW, I like the kid (MV) and it would be cool to see an Ocon or somebody else come up and have a long time rivalry with him. I think F1 would be a bit to stale if wasn't for MV. They need some fresh faces to liven things up.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

FWIW, I like the kid (MV) and it would be cool to see an Ocon or somebody else come up and have a long time rivalry with him. I think F1 would be a bit to stale if wasn't for MV. They need some fresh faces to liven things up.

Indeed . No worries my friend..With Max in the coming years , F1 action is guaranteed !
Of course all depends from the power and the reliability of the new 2019 Honda engine .

God Bless Max and Red Bull number 33 !

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

do you mean on the straight or in the corner where the actual crash happened?
(I was talking about that last one)

On the pit straight, before the first corner. Had he stayed on the racing line (right) there, Ocon would have easily gone past on the inside of T1.

[GuidoK]

Ocon couldn't get past Verstappen on the straight, see the footage.
If Ocon placed his car on the inside, Verstappen wouldn't be able to follow the racing line, because Ocon would be there then.

Ocon should have made sure that he didn't fall behind when entering the straight, but instead he let a 10 car gap fall, creating the situation for himself that despite his better tyres, and despite DRS he couldn't make up for that gap and pass Verstappen without hindering him. It was a very very poorly orchestrated move. And he decided not to back down and try again and wait for a better oppertunity, instead he decided to hold his ground resulting in the crash. Only serves him right that he got punished for it by the FIA. 10sec. stop/go and 3 penalty points. Not that those points are going to hurt him, the chances that he's in F1 next year are slim.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by minn19

FWIW, I like the kid (MV) and it would be cool to see an Ocon or somebody else come up and have a long time rivalry with him. I think F1 would be a bit to stale if wasn't for MV. They need some fresh faces to liven things up.

For sure. I love watching Max battle. It's usually the most exciting part of these races.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

For sure. I love watching Max battle. It's usually the most exciting part of these races.

Exactly my friend ! From what he showed this season , a race without Max would be never the same again...and perhaps even boring .

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Ocon couldn't get past Verstappen on the straight, see the footage.
If Ocon placed his car on the inside, Verstappen wouldn't be able to follow the racing line, because Ocon would be there then.

Ocon should have made sure that he didn't fall behind when entering the straight, but instead he let a 10 car gap fall, creating the situation for himself that despite his better tyres, and despite DRS he couldn't make up for that gap and pass Verstappen without hindering him. It was a very very poorly orchestrated move. And he decided not to back down and try again and wait for a better oppertunity, instead he decided to hold his ground resulting in the crash. Only serves him right that he got punished for it by the FIA. 10sec. stop/go and 3 penalty points. Not that those points are going to hurt him, the chances that he's in F1 next year are slim.

https://streamable.com/fkpqj
Watch around 3:04, Max moved to the left, off the racing line. It's as clear as daylight.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mk1-fan

https://streamable.com/fkpqj
Watch around 3:04, Max moved to the left, off the racing line. It's as clear as daylight.

The leader determines the racing line imo.
Verstappen probably didn't want to be put on the outside of T1. Who would.
Ocon didn't overtake him on the straight because his whole move was poorly executed and way too aggressive resulting in the crash in T2 which was completely Ocon's fault according to the FIA race director.
So yeah you might not agree, but Charlie Whiting IS the FIA race director.
If he thought it was Verstappens fault, he would have said so. Its not that he didn't reprimand Verstappen before.....

[mk1-fan]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

The leader determines the racing line imo.
Verstappen probably didn't want to be put on the outside of T1. Who would.
Ocon didn't overtake him on the straight because his whole move was poorly executed and way too aggressive resulting in the crash in T2 which was completely Ocon's fault according to the FIA race director.
So yeah you might not agree, but Charlie Whiting IS the FIA race director.
If he thought it was Verstappens fault, he would have said so. Its not that he didn't reprimand Verstappen before.....

Really? That is just laughable. The racing line is the fastest line. If you don't even know that, then this whole discussion is hopeless.

I have 6 years of racing experience, and this bit here shows you just don't have an inkling of how racing works.
"Verstappen probably didn't want to be put on the outside of T1. Who would"

Of course he didn't want to be on the outside of T1, as Ocon would easily have gone past. And that is the whole problem, Verstappen didn't think anything through. His big ego was in the way of everything.

But anyway, this is my last post on this topic, I see no reason discussing anything further here.

[GuidoK]

Whats laughable that you think you know better with your '6 years racing experience' whatever that may be, than the FIA race director.
You know what he said. And still you think you know better....LOL
Guess thats why he's the FIA race director and you're just some guy on a forum. It's really stupid to question the expertise of a guy like that as he's pretty much the guy who's getting to tell whats allowed and what isnt.
You clearly don't know what you're talking about if you don't get Charlie Whiting's explanation.

Besides if he would end up at the outside of t1, it clearly wouldnt have been the fastest line.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by StatenEye

How anyone can still defend him after this is baffling. He was clearly pissed he was passed and was ultra aggressive there after. He made a move to block Ocon on the straight who was clearly WAY faster... surprised MV didn't do his usual double move. I don't understand how anyone can defend him after this.

It is amazing how people can see the same incident so differently. I still can't see why Ocon got assessed a penalty for anything. He had the inside line on the corner MV turned down on top of him causing the collision. Oh well, on to the next/last race.

[inTgr8r]

This is one of the better analysis that I've seen

[minn19]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

This is one of the better analysis that I've seen

Good video, I don't agree with his overall conclusions, but still good.

F1 should just make a rule then that a lapped car cannot try and and unlap themselves racing the leader instead of this political BS.

[GuidoK]

In the end it doesnt matter what we think of it, or even what drivers like Hamilton think of it or what the guy in the video thinks of it.
It's up to the officials and race director. And in their view and how the rules are it's a clear matter. Ocon had no business in trying to pass Verstappen in such an aggressive way like I've been telling all along.
Ocon fucked up on the straight where he had not limited the distance between Verstappen and himself enough that he could make a clean pass on the straight, so he should have backed off in T1, instead he decided to hold his ground into T2 which resulted in the crash. So its completely Ocon's fault. I don't understand how this is so difficult to understand for certain persons. Whitings explanation was very simple.
A race leader should not be hindered by someone who's trailing a lap, thats the point and a lot of rules in F1 are focussed on that. Like the blue flag.
I don't know how old the people here are that don't get this, but if you're over 40-45ish, you probably remember how F1 was before the blue flags and that cars that were trailing a lap behind more often had an influence in the outcome of a race, hindering the race leaders too much. Of course they also drive their own race but it was decided that it was more important that the battle between race leaders was influenced as less as possible by these lesser drivers. Back then the race leaders could get very pissed off by lesser drivers getting lapped. Can you imagine what happens with the explosive temperament of Senna when he had to deal with such things? (of course Senna was also a guy at the start of his career that pissed off race leaders when he was getting lapped)

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

In the end it doesnt matter what we think of it, or even what drivers like Hamilton think of it or what the guy in the video thinks of it.
It's up to the officials and race director. And in their view and how the rules are it's a clear matter. Ocon had no business in trying to pass Verstappen in such an aggressive way like I've been telling all along.
Ocon fucked up on the straight where he had not limited the distance between Verstappen and himself enough that he could make a clean pass on the straight, so he should have backed off in T1, instead he decided to hold his ground into T2 which resulted in the crash. So its completely Ocon's fault. I don't understand how this is so difficult to understand for certain persons. Whitings explanation was very simple.
A race leader should not be hindered by someone who's trailing a lap, thats the point and a lot of rules in F1 are focussed on that. Like the blue flag.
I don't know how old the people here are that don't get this, but if you're over 40-45ish, you probably remember how F1 was before the blue flags and that cars that were trailing a lap behind more often had an influence in the outcome of a race, hindering the race leaders too much. Of course they also drive their own race but it was decided that it was more important that the battle between race leaders was influenced as less as possible by these lesser drivers. Back then the race leaders could get very pissed off by lesser drivers getting lapped. Can you imagine what happens with the explosive temperament of Senna when he had to deal with such things? (of course Senna was also a guy at the start of his career that pissed off race leaders when he was getting lapped)

Actually, I'd say the officials and race directors thoughts/punishments matter the least out of all of this. They didn't give MV the win so what does a ten second penalty matter to a driver that wasn't even going to make it into a point position anyway? And MV's penalty? Who even knows what they meant there.

I guess for me it is hard to understand your point of view because............I don't get why MV is allowed to stuff his nose into the first corner defending his inside line (as Ocon was ahead there), but Ocon isn't allowed to defend his inside line into the next one. MV clearly dove into Ocon in that corner causing the crash.

Before you say race leader etc. Was it bad taste etc by Ocon to do what he did? 100%, was it against the rules to try and pass him to unlap himself no.

[Bartledoo]

Shhhh, Guido said our opinions don't matter guys. Just listen to him since he has the power of the race officials, and the drivers who make any discernable mistakes are always punished by said officials.

If they don't punish a given driver, no mistake can possibly have been made by that driver... This is what you are saying we should understand so easily, correct Guido?

[///M Power-Belgium]

*The forgotten 2017 Highlights*

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by minn19

Actually, I'd say the officials and race directors thoughts/punishments matter the least out of all of this. They didn't give MV the win so what does a ten second penalty matter to a driver that wasn't even going to make it into a point position anyway? And MV's penalty? Who even knows what they meant there.

They cant give MV his win because that would be a punishment for Hamiltons performance. Something like that never happens, at least not that I have seen in any FIA raceclass.
The 10 sec penalty is the 2nd heaviest penalty they could give within the F1 penalty system. Disqualifying would be the other option. And its not only the 10sec stop/go he got, Ocon also got 3 penalty points. Not that that matters as he's probably gone in next season, but otherwise thats also a penalty most drivers dont like. If it was up to me Ocon should have been disqualified because the penalties he got didnt really hurt him because of the position that he's in (assuming he wont return in F1 next year), but then again, the punishment for a fault should be determined by the fault thats made, not by how it effects the perpetrator in sports.

I guess for me it is hard to understand your point of view because............I don't get why MV is allowed to stuff his nose into the first corner defending his inside line (as Ocon was ahead there), but Ocon isn't allowed to defend his inside line into the next one. MV clearly dove into Ocon in that corner causing the crash.

Read Whitings comment. Ocon is not allowed to hinder the race leader. One may unlap, but not in a fighting manner.

Before you say race leader etc. Was it bad taste etc by Ocon to do what he did? 100%, was it against the rules to try and pass him to unlap himself no.

Of course it was bad taste. He may unlap himself but not by means of hindering the race leader. When he saw that his unlapattempt failed at the straight he should have backed off and wait for another oppertunity.
Not trying to get the inside line to the next corner.
I dont understand why this is so difficult to understand. He's a lap behind. He had no business in interfering or hindering the race leader. Thats the rule.
If he wanted to unlap himself, he should have taken care of that on the straight, like he attempted. But that failed. So then wait for another suitable attempt instead of driving your car in the side of another car. When the crash happened in T1, he tried to force Verstappen off the racing line by placing his car inbetween Verstappen and the curbs. In this case, the race leader doesn't have to yield, the lesser driver has to. It all fits in the system of blue flags etc, the leader has the 'right of passage' so to speak
Or would you rather have the racing system again from the era before blue flags? Where cars that are lapped are virtually equal as cars that fight eachother for a position?
I can mention loads of drivers back then that were feared to be overtaken when lapped .... I dont think that was a better system back then from a sporting pov.

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

This is what you are saying we should understand so easily, correct Guido?

Pretty much if you're not smart enough to understand Whitings view. But thats basically what you're saying, that you know things better than him.
They didnt punish Verstappen because he did nothing wrong (at least not on the track, I'm not talking about his behaviour in the pits). If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about the F1 rules apparantly. Or in your view: you understand better than Whiting how the rules work (that he himself probably made, seeing how long he has been in F1)