[Tag]

Some more stats.

F87 M2
Torque ft-lbs. 343 @ 1,400 - 5,560

F87 M2C
Torque ft-lbs. 406 @ 2,350 – 5,230

G80/80
Torque ft-lbs. 406 @ 2,650 – 6,130

G87
Torque ft-lbs. 406 @ 2,650 – 5,870

Sources:
F87 M2 - Specifications (PDF)
F87 M2C - Specifications (PDF)
G80 M3 - Specifications (PDF)
G82 M4 - Specifications (PDF)
G87 M2 - Specifications (PDF)

[baron95]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

Consider the context. James did mention that they have been critical of BMW's recent stylings in the past (e.g., the beaver grilles) and BMW responded with stern warnings from BMW "head honchos from Munich" to cool it.

Any media organization (outside Russia or China) would not take heed to these 'threats' and so TH responded in a way they know best - poke fun at it by exaggerating their critique even more. This essentially (and rightly) tells those in Munich what they think of their warning. It's a proper response IMO and totally within TH character.

BMW asked them "to be professional". Is that too much to ask when BMW flies them, houses them, feeds them, and provide early access to their cars?

If they just want to trash a product simply to get clicks, that is fine. They can buy a BMW with their own money, after getting in line with everyone else, then trash the car.

Media events, where automakers are paying the tab and providing early access, is a professional engagement. Acting professionally is expected.

[Mike_H_]

Tough that TH felt the need to come here and do damage control to protect the brand, but any M2 buyer opting for the 6-speed would know to downshift to get into the powerband, so the scenario TH created was something those drivers would never do.

[M Hybrid V8]

Originally Posted by Mike_H_

Tough that TH felt the need to come here and do damage control to protect the brand, but any M2 buyer opting for the 6-speed would know to downshift to get into the powerband, so the scenario TH created was something those drivers would never do.

I think the point of their test is being missed. They purposely bogged the engine down in a unrealistic scenario in an attempt to better showcase how dead it felt without the turbos spinning. They also did this in 2nd gear, but it wasn't as apparent. The intent was just to make people aware of the lack of torque at low rpm. Some people will not care, others are changing their order to ZF8 and if that helps them enjoy the car then TH did them a great service.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by M2CS

I think the point of their test is being missed. They purposely bogged the engine down in a unrealistic scenario in an attempt to better showcase how dead it felt without the turbos spinning. They also did this in 2nd gear, but it wasn't as apparent. The intent was just to make people aware of the lack of torque at low rpm. Some people will not care, others are changing their order to ZF8 and if that helps them enjoy the car then TH did them a great service.

You're assigning a purpose. They did not state as much. They said the one pull was an over dramatization but Thomas also absolutely backed up the claim that the car has no guts below 3500RPM.

That just isn't congruent with the facts published about the S58, and the G87 M2. So we're still wondering what's up with this (to some degree).

[ronin13013]

You see how these F87 guys defend each other. Lol. Just playin. I cant believe these guys garnered a 5 page thread. That 4th gear stunt will go down in history.

Originally Posted by M2CS

Did the data the community found prove or disprove TH's claims? I can easily find fault in Savagegeese videos if that's my goal. No one video can cover every single detail. I'm not here to defend TH, but it seems like some people are simply angry at BMW for not changing gear ratios for the MT or giving the S58 a different tune and you're taking it out on TH since they were the first to bring you the news.

[IronEgg]

Originally Posted by ronin13013

You see how these F87 guys defend each other. Lol. Just playin. I cant believe these guys garnered a 5 page thread. That 4th gear stunt will go down in history.

It is like deja vu to me when g80/82 first announced.

The mod on g80/82 forum had to ban a lot of people to keep the entire forum on track

[LIFTED*M3]

The S58 motor is a mid to high rpm motor. It is not dead below 3000 RPM, just not lively. With the Automatic it will always satisfy with the right foot. The DME will shift to give you intended thrust as you request it. With the manual, you will need to adjust to your needs. That is once again the point of a manual. In a big V8, such as a LS3, LT1, or LT4, from GM, you have the same problem. The engines pull so hard in the mid and upper RPM, you get spoiled by that power band. The low RPM "Feels" dead, but in fact its just less than you get in the mid range, because it is so good there.

I have the S58 in my X3M and its satisfying poking around like a normal SUV, but when you step on it, it turns into a BEAST. But if it were a manual it would a Dr Jekyl Mr. Hyde situation, that you turn on with a clutch and change of gear.

We have gotten spoiled over the years, by the super tractable power band. Small turbos and direct injection can feel like much bigger motors, but they lose steam up top. Big turbos lose low end reponse, but pull like a freight train in the mid/high RPMS. You cant have both. The S58 pulls ridiculously up high.

[sl0m0]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Don't forget, they also followed up with posts calling the manual unusable.

And then came on the forum to claim there is zero power under 3500rpm, which is a bit of an exaggeration.
Im getting the manual, gonna drive it properly, and drop some weight to lighten it up and effectively lower that power threshold.

[Mike_H_]

Originally Posted by M2CS

I think the point of their test is being missed. They purposely bogged the engine down in a unrealistic scenario in an attempt to better showcase how dead it felt without the turbos spinning. They also did this in 2nd gear, but it wasn't as apparent. The intent was just to make people aware of the lack of torque at low rpm. Some people will not care, others are changing their order to ZF8 and if that helps them enjoy the car then TH did them a great service.

It was pointless for them to do that, because any car, turbo or NA would bog when deliberately lagged like that and every stick shift driver and Captain Obvious already knows that.

[donm527]

I think people are just taking a little too personally (?) maybe his use of words that "the car has no guts" below 3500rpm.

TH is getting a lot of attention for mentioning the lack of low end grunt but after all the videos, I know I've seen a few videos or write ups where they have similar impressions. Just not worded the same.

Saw one other person also wish the car didn't have as much grip like TH.

In this video below someone posted on other thread in close caption if accurate at the 12:40 mark he makes a point to mention the power coming on late in 3rd gear and looks like he is trying to make a point at 3rd gear and around 30 mph.

"No guts" may be a bit strong. Maybe over emphasizing it for the video like his part about how the car looked so "beeeeeeeep." But if his feelings/opinion are his own and standing by them. His co host seems to back him on the findings though. And there were a review or two I remember people mentioning it should so there is something to it. S58 has been known to be peaky just the like B58 is known to have a little bit more grunt down low but given enough road, the S58 will real it in and pass.

Originally Posted by zero21

You're assigning a purpose. They did not state as much. They said the one pull was an over dramatization but Thomas also absolutely backed up the claim that the car has no guts below 3500RPM.

That just isn't congruent with the facts published about the S58, and the G87 M2. So we're still wondering what's up with this (to some degree).

[Tag]

Originally Posted by baron95

BMW asked them "to be professional". Is that too much to ask when BMW flies them, houses them, feeds them, and provide early access to their cars?

He was.

[FryCookOnVenus]

I like Throttle House, but my impression was that after being reprimanded by BMW, the boys got their feelings hurt. So, they decided to push back with their "edgy" censored rant about the design, the 4th Gear Stunt and a disingenuous review.

To me, it felt arrogant, childish and shortsighted. BimmerPost is a very small corner of the internet so I doubt it will hurt their channel in any meaningful way, but I for one think less of them.

I appreciate humor and honesty, but I thought the TH review hid behind those ideals without actually delivering on them.

[Tag]

Tough crowd. Can't wait to see how everyone reacts once savagegeese reviews it.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by LIFTED*M3

We have gotten spoiled over the years, by the super tractable power band. Small turbos and direct injection can feel like much bigger motors, but they lose steam up top. Big turbos lose low end reponse, but pull like a freight train in the mid/high RPMS. You cant have both. The S58 pulls ridiculously up high.

+1000

Here is my dyno sheet from my 2018 S5 (3.0 V6 twin scroll small turbo...for those who know the motor, its in a sense "upside-down") after ECU tuned and before TCU tune. Its obviously a beast from stop light to stop light but nit much on the top end.

[SW19]

Originally Posted by FryCookOnVenus

I like Throttle House, but my impression was that after being reprimanded by BMW, the boys got their feelings hurt. So, they decided to push back with their "edgy" censored rant about the design, the 4th Gear Stunt and a disingenuous review.

To me, it felt arrogant, childish and shortsighted. BimmerPost is a very small corner of the internet so I doubt it will hurt their channel in any meaningful way, but I for one think less of them.

I appreciate humor and honesty, but I thought the TH review hid behind those ideals without actually delivering on them.

So because BMW told them not to bash the design they concocted a plan to criticize the looks in a funny way and find a dicey throttle issue specifically in the 6MT to make the G87 look bad.Yeah i’m sure that is how it went down out there in Arizona.

[FryCookOnVenus]

Originally Posted by SW19

So because BMW told them not to bash the design they concocted a plan to criticize the looks in a funny way and find a dicey throttle issue specifically in the 6MT to make the G87 look bad.Yeah i’m sure that is how it went down out there in Arizona.

That's precisely what I'm saying. You've just restated it and added "nuh-uh!"

[1stM]

4th gear acceleration from 30mph? Does the guy know how to drive stick shift?

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by 1stM

4th gear acceleration from 30mph? Does the guy know how to drive stick shift?

Apparently, he wants a car that handles poorly so he can work to keep it in line, yet doesn't want a car with a powerband that gives you a reason to shift.

We want to save the manuals so that we can lug an engine at idle from a standstill to 100mph in 6th gear, no shifting required. Makes sense.

[1stM]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

Apparently, he wants a car that handles poorly so he can work to keep it in line, yet doesn't want a car with a powerband that gives you a reason to shift.

We want to save the manuals so that we can lug an engine at idle from a standstill to 100mph in 6th gear, no shifting required. Makes sense.

I thought Canadians are honest....

[D22M2]

TH is what happens when your not funny but try hard to

I like TH videos but 100% have never laughed watching em.

[Tag]

Originally Posted by 1stM

4th gear acceleration from 30mph? Does the guy know how to drive stick shift?

You have to look at it in the full context. TH showed two scenarios that they demonstrated in their M2 video.

In the first scenario JamesThrottle was driving in 2nd gear and then slowed down to 18mph and went WOT. The car wasn't as responsive as he thought it should be. It wasn't until the RPMs ramped up until it started to really pull.

In the second scenario James put the car in 4th gear at 30mph and again went WOT. This test is unrealistic of course, but James' specifically stated his rationale for doing that was to illustrate that the car didn't have the low-down torque/power he was expecting the S58 to have.

Throttle House Thomas confirmed that he experienced the same as James. He owns an OG M2 which is more eager to get up and go. You can view my previous post as to why that OG M2 has more low end torque here.

My takeaway from their review is they both expected the M2 with the S58 to be similarly eager to the OG M2 but with more top end power since its torque is the same but the hp is higher. Obviously, that wasn't the case which caused all this "TH Gate" to blow up bimmerpost as it has.

The two reviews they've done to date have been on the G82 M4C xDrive AT and the G82 M4 CSL AT so they haven't driven the MT version of those cars to compare. I think that's because they don't offer MT in Canada or they couldn't get one to test.

Here's the portion of the TH video everyone is talking about. Start watching at 4m10s.