[Xspeedracer]

I would only have considered it, if it was a DCT instead of 8spd with torque converter very happy with my 6spd manual

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

yeah the downshifts with ZF8 are faster, you do know that it has 3 settings on it right... 3rd setting is faster then anyone can downshift a manual. I drove manuals for 15 years straight before this

I have yet to see ZF8 M cars nail sequential downshifts at comparable speeds even in S3 (excluding M235R, is it an M though ) Maybe you can share a video of those snappy downshifts?
Upshifts for sure are faster with ZF8 thanks to the shorter gears, but then again DCT could do them without that momentary torque interruption that ZF8 has.

With your breadth of experience, I'm sure you are aware even faster multiple downshifts are possible with today's auto rev-matching manuals. E92M did not have that, and I wasn't trying to shift that fast either.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

With your breadth of experience, I'm sure you are aware even faster multiple downshifts are possible with today's auto rev-matching manuals. E92M did not have that, and I wasn't trying to shift that fast either.

Rev matching doesn't let you shift any faster. Only double clutching relieves the burden of the synchros. How fast you can shift any BMW manual is really limited by how badly you want to abuse your synchros and transmission. They suck for fast shifts compared to Tremec etc. I can shift faster into 2nd in my Mazda than M2C rev matching on or off.

[Knocksvil]

Mines an auto. I get roasted all the time at meets. I'd make the same choice again though. Everyone loves an M2.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by chris719

Rev matching doesn't let you shift any faster. Only double clutching relieves the burden of the synchros. How fast you can shift any BMW manual is really limited by how badly you want to abuse your synchros and transmission. They suck for fast shifts compared to Tremec etc. I can shift faster into 2nd in my Mazda than M2C rev matching on or off.

Or you can get lazy and blip multiple downshifts in one clutch.

I had 250,000km on my E36 M3 3.2 (euro 6 speed), have 130,000km on E36 M3 3.0 (euro 5 speed), and 130,000km on E92 M3. All of them driven like stolen cars since day one. None of these cars suffered noticeable synchro wear that you speak of, let alone clutch wear (only the 3.2 had it changed at 220,000km, but due to the leaky rear main seal, not the pressure plate wear.) These aren't 1960s VW shitboxes.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Or you can get lazy and blip multiple downshifts in one clutch.

I had 250,000km on my E36 M3 3.2 (euro 6 speed), have 130,000km on E36 M3 3.0 (euro 5 speed), and 130,000km on E92 M3. All of them driven like stolen cars since day one. None of these cars suffered noticeable synchro wear that you speak of, let alone clutch wear (only the 3.2 had it changed at 220,000km, but due to the leaky rear main seal, not the pressure plate wear.) These aren't 1960s VW shitboxes.

Uh, whatever bro. BMW 6MT from E46, E92, Z4M, E92 1M, F87, etc. doesn't matter, can't be shifted very fast into 2nd at all without grinding. You have to give it that slight pause. Maybe you just haven't driven cars with good manual gearboxes. Any gearbox will suffer synchro wear if you grind it constantly and they sure as hell do not like to be rushed and shifted fast into 2nd in particular. I've seen several F8x have their gearbox replaced due to bad 2nd gear synchros also btw. Try driving a 997 or 987 and you'll understand. They can be shifted much more quickly without feeling abusive.

Anyway, my original point still stands that auto rev matching has no effect on your ability to shift fast. If you want to speak like an authority on the subject you might want to understand the basics of how a MT works.

You can pretend you're hot shit, but no one is shifting faster than even a ZF8. You can do multiple downshifts with ZF8 or DCT by holding the left paddle which automatically grabs the shortest gear or by using the kickdown function.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

Over the years I started resenting the forced lull in acceleration that manuals bring on upshifts more then I enjoyed the act of upshifting, just wanna keep accelerating but no have to completely release the throttle and row my gear then re-apply throttle and spool the turbos back up to where they were and THEN I get to resume accelerating. Banging up through the shorter ZF8 gears in the 3rd setting is pretty awesome, love hitting multiple quick short shifts in a row while never losing boost.

rev matching downshifts into a corner will never be beat by a auto box though. Most of the time you're just rolling up to a traffic light/stop sign though so don't even get to do that properly that often in road cars.

I think I'm just on the other side of the manual narrative from most people, I'm coming off 15 years of only driving manuals while a lot of other guys are coming off years of autos and want that magic of a manual back in their life, there's no wrong answer it's a personal decision.

Exactly right, it's a pick-your-poison decision. I'm getting a manual because it's the end of the line, but it's clear that the 6MT has been an afterthought for BMW for quite some time.

[BroDoze]

This is a trivial / silly observation I’ve had over the last 20-25 years, but autos on performance cars, especially with louder exhaust, sound like hell while driven hard outside the vehicle. The auto-shifting noises just completely rob from the cool factor. There’s ways to make the exhaust do certain things and pops and burbles with a MT that are either more difficult or impossible in an auto. Childish, I know, but it’s a thing.
Nothing worse than a deafening mufflerless something next to you and hearing the auto shift as it speeds away. Is it just me?

[TheDrivenGarage]

I have owned both. Manual in my G87 and auto in my M4. It's manual hands down
. The auto is a torque converter auto and the shifting sucks, it's not fast and crisp when using the paddles. It will surge and slam dramatically but it doesn't feel connected to you as a driver. I feel like all of the reviewers are regurgitating one another. Yes it's faster to shift than you can. But everything feels delayed when shifting manually (and yes i have it set to its mosf aggressive setting), there isnt the feeling of a mechanical connection from the paddles to the trans. Plus you are more likely chasing fun on the street and the occasional laptime where being a couple tenths slower on shifting won't matter.

I just had my M2 at Road America and downshifting going into the corners and shifting up on the straights was glorious. Also, playing around on the street is so much more fun with the manual, even at low speeds.

[RockCrusher]

Originally Posted by chris719

Rev matching doesn't let you shift any faster. Only double clutching relieves the burden of the synchros. How fast you can shift any BMW manual is really limited by how badly you want to abuse your synchros and transmission. They suck for shifts compared to Tremec etc. I can shift faster into 2nd in my Mazda than M2C rev matching on or off.

Rev matching relieves the burden on the synchros.

Double clutching does too, but it takes extra time. And subjects the clutch (mainly the throwout/release bearing) to extra wear/tear.

I don't know which Mazda you are comparing the M2 to but I suspect it is not apples to apples.

My 2023 JCW shifted quicker than my M2. The reason? The JCW manual was smaller/lighter because it only had to deal with 228hp/236 ft lbs of torque. The M2 manual is heavier because it has to deal with 453hp/406 ft lbs of torque.

The heavier internals of the M2 is the reason for the slower shifting speed.

(As an aside, the fastest shifting manual transmission in my experience was the one in my 2002 Boxster. 217hp/196 ft lbs of torque. Faster shifting due to lighter weight internals.)

Even with the heavier internals the M2 transmission is I believe the fastest shifting manual transmission compared to any car with an engine of similar power/torque I've owned. These include a 2006 Pontiac GTO (400hp), Porsche Turbo (420hp), Dodge Scat Pack (485hp).

When shifting the M2 under hard acceleration I don't have to wait any for the shift to occur. The next gear is selected as fast as I can move the shift lever. The M2 manual is really an awesome transmission. But I would still think the automatic would have a quicker shift time.

[BroDoze]

How many 6MT guys here have done the CDV delete? And what's your opinion of the change? (yes I know there's other threads on this)

I wonder if that would be a way to get a slight bit better predictability/smoothness around town in slower traffic in a daily grind..

[chris719]

Originally Posted by RockCrusher

Rev matching relieves the burden on the synchros.

This is simply false. Clutch is in while the throttle blip happens.

[ScottyRyan2019]

Some serious "Mine's bigger!" going on in this thread. 🤣

[iifymbro]

Originally Posted by chris719

This is simply false. Clutch is in while the throttle blip happens.

you're blipping the throttle to get the rpms up to ~equal where they'll be when the clutch is back to fully engaged though

[iifymbro]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

I have yet to see ZF8 M cars nail sequential downshifts at comparable speeds even in S3 (excluding M235R, is it an M though ) Maybe you can share a video of those snappy downshifts?
Upshifts for sure are faster with ZF8 thanks to the shorter gears, but then again DCT could do them without that momentary torque interruption that ZF8 has.

With your breadth of experience, I'm sure you are aware even faster multiple downshifts are possible with today's auto rev-matching manuals. E92M did not have that, and I wasn't trying to shift that fast either.

you physically cannot depress the clutch, move the gear lever, and re-engage the clutch faster then I can click the paddle and have a new gear in the 3rd setting. It's physically impossible I don't know what else to tell you lol

[Celestion]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

you're blipping the throttle to get the rpms up to ~equal where they'll be when the clutch is back to fully engaged though

People often don't realize that the transmission RPM is separate from the wheel and engine RPM.

So while you are correct, you still have to match the gear speed with wheel speed... that is what synchros are for... because each gear is a different size and will rotate at a different speed when the vehicle speed is held consent. The synchros, "synchronize", the gear RPM to the wheel RPM whenever you're pushing into the next gear.

Throttle blips match the engine speed to the gear speed thereby preserving the clutch, but the blips do nothing to match the gear speed to the wheel speed.


During a shift three separate rotating masses need to be aligned:

Wheel RPM <-synchro-> Gear RPM <-clutch-> Engine RPM

[Geighty7]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

you physically cannot depress the clutch, move the gear lever, and re-engage the clutch faster then I can click the paddle and have a new gear in the 3rd setting. It's physically impossible I don't know what else to tell you lol

Yeah agreed and I’m in a 6MT. Manual is for the experience, not the speed. Can’t argue which is faster to do, always hated that random argument of “well I shift manually really fast” lol.

Just have to breathe and accept clicking a finger will always be faster, even if it’s not a DCT and just ZF8 + Torque Converter.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

you physically cannot depress the clutch, move the gear lever, and re-engage the clutch faster then I can click the paddle and have a new gear in the 3rd setting. It's physically impossible I don't know what else to tell you lol

The shifts themselves are pretty fast with ZF8, but there is a significant delay between the paddle action and the actual shift, especially when you are sequentially downshifting while braking into a corner. This is quite clear driving on a track. DCT on the other hand doesn't have this issue. More or less the same with 6MT.
You could come and lend me the ZF8 variant at NJMP Thunderbolt on May 25th. I'll film a short comparison video.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by iifymbro

you're blipping the throttle to get the rpms up to ~equal where they'll be when the clutch is back to fully engaged though

Yes but that has nothing to do with the input shaft speed since the clutch is not engaged when you blip. The gears need to be synchronized still. Celestion has it right.

[iifymbro]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

The shifts themselves are pretty fast with ZF8, but there is a significant delay between the paddle action and the actual shift, especially when you are sequentially downshifting while braking into a corner. This is quite clear driving on a track. DCT on the other hand doesn't have this issue. More or less the same with 6MT.
You could come and lend me the ZF8 variant at NJMP Thunderbolt on May 25th. I'll film a short comparison video.

it's not a significant delay, it's very fast. Not quite DCT fast, but not far off and most definitely faster then a human can downshift a manual. There's different gearbox settings and it behaves quite different depending on which one you're in

[Dave07997S]

Simple answer: NO!!

[izzyM2]

4:45 for shifting sample
I wish I can do, lol, old vid and seem fast enough to me and you get all the happiness of manuals.