[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Oh no Footie. Don't you know the ACR and FXX are made according to rules that must be followed for you to think they look nice.

You just said exactly what I've been saying all along but the "experts" are telling me I'm wrong and I should buy a Corolla.

You guys just plain dont get it. You lack the vision to see the difference. And i never said i was some hot shit designer.

The FXX and ACR are different than the apollo b/c the viper and enzo are nicely and cohesively designed vehicles, love them or hate them, they are well put together (not talking about fit and finish) The gumpert is not well designed....it has no design, it makes no sense. ACR and FXX are good looking cars with a few mechanical and aero mods for the track. Underneath, there is good design, like a really hot girl wearing catchers gear for a softball game. Underneath she is a hottie. The gumpert is like a rosanne bar wearing goalie pads.

But if you were a heart surgeon, and another surgeon botched an operation....and me (who has no training to be in the medical field) started telling you that I know what im talking about.....you would be like WTF....and thats what we feel like: WTF

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by wiggyx

1. The fact that you think the Apollo and Viper are equally ugly means that your opinions about design are uneducated at best.

2. There are many things that "technically" make for solid, cohesive design. Sure, in the end anybody can give their opinion, point was to break down, piece by piece why the Apollo is a design failure.

3. Boo-hoo. You need to clarify that better next time by simply saying something along the lines of "the ACR add-ons make an otherwise attractive car look rather frumpy". Nowhere is it evident that you think non-ACR Vipers are good looking cars.

4. Seriously, you just kept defending the car saying that "you can't analyze a car like this", or "beauty is in the eye of the beholder", or "if you saw it in person you wouldn't think that". Stop it. You're playing the devil's advocate and it's just going to get you caught up in an argument like this.

5. So sorry that you think that. I would argue that your credibility was pretty much lost from the outset when you insisted that the car was untouchable, in terms of its ability to be critiqued.

6. Either way, all that I'm arguing is that the Gumpert can be critiqued. I've given my reasons why.

Ok lets look at this piece by piece.
Firstly, apparently whatever training you did negated your ability to read.

1. By having a normal opinion on different cars does not make me uneducated. It does make you sound like you think you're some kind of genius. Designed any cars we know recently? If you were responsible for the DB9 then maybe I'll bow to that. Otherwise I stated my taste which is not uneducated in any way. As for actual education I'm retired at 42 so my education obviously wasn't a problem. As for Gumpert and ACR being equally ugly that's just another one of your fabrications. I never made any comment on levels of ugly. There's no need. Ugly is ugly when it comes to buying and regardless of situation I wouldn't buy either. For the record I think the Gumpert is uglier but the ACR looks like a trailer park car.

2. If you read the entire post you will see that I definitely did say the Viper was a very good looking car and that it was the ACR version that ruined it. (I can understand this bit as I've brushed through long posts before and missed stuff but it's definitely there in the earlier pages. It's in a reply to robo so that should make it easier to find)

3. I made no comment on the break down of your analysis at all. NON. NOT A WORD. What I commented on was you statement that I should buy a Corolla because I don't like the look of the Viper. Try to keep it factual here will you.

4. I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED THE LOOKS OF THE GUMPERT. Jesus. Why is that point being ignored by BOTH of you???? I said it was an excellent track car and it is. As for the seeing it in the flesh. I'll do this in big letters so you can see it. I SAID THE FIT AND FINISHED WAS EXCELLENT BUT IT WAS STILL UGLY. That statement still has nothing to do with the design of the car. Just the build quality. The beauty in the eye of the beholder was referring to the Viper ACR NOT THE GUMPERT. And I stand over that. As you'll see a couple of posts above Footie thinks the same thing I so about the ACR so I'm not the only uneducated philistine apparently.

5. This is my favourite. You're saying my credibility is shot because of something you just made up. I never said a word about anyone critiquing the Gumpert. What are you Fox News??? Make it up and say it and it's true???? Please show me a single comment I made regarding your actual critique. Not the comment on the Corolla or Viper. A line where I say you can't critique the Gumpert.

6. You go ahead and do that. I never said you shouldn't. Even though you said I did. Are you sure you're not Bill O'Reilly?

I'll say this once more for the hard of hearing.
The Gumpert is ugly. I think the Viper ACR is also ugly. If it meets every rule you ever read that won't change my opinion on it or anyone else (I actually don't know anyone that likes the ACR). For critiquing purposes and design you have rules to follow. However, all the rules in the world won't guarantee people will like whatever you come up with. That's the personal taste bit.

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

You guys just plain dont get it. You lack the vision to see the difference. And i never said i was some hot shit designer.

The FXX and ACR are different than the apollo b/c the viper and enzo are nicely and cohesively designed vehicles, love them or hate them, they are well put together (not talking about fit and finish) The gumpert is not well designed....it has no design, it makes no sense. ACR and FXX are good looking cars with a few mechanical and aero mods for the track. Underneath, there is good design, like a really hot girl wearing catchers gear for a softball game. Underneath she is a hottie. The gumpert is like a rosanne bar wearing goalie pads.

But if you were a heart surgeon, and another surgeon botched an operation....and me (who has no training to be in the medical field) started telling you that I know what im talking about.....you would be like WTF....and thats what we feel like: WTF

@ Rosanne in goalie pads!

Couldn't have said it better myself

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

5. This is my favourite. You're saying my credibility is shot because of something you just made up. I never said a word about anyone critiquing the Gumpert. What are you Fox News??? Make it up and say it and it's true???? Please show me a single comment I made regarding your actual critique. Not the comment on the Corolla or Viper. A line where I say you can't critique the Gumpert.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

You can't analyse the shape of something that was designed for the track using road car constructs. Stick up a picture of an F1 car and see how well that works using those rules.

Failure to read own posts.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

You guys just plain dont get it. You lack the vision to see the difference. And i never said i was some hot shit designer.

The FXX and ACR are different than the apollo b/c the viper and enzo are nicely and cohesively designed vehicles, love them or hate them, they are well put together (not talking about fit and finish) The gumpert is not well designed....it has no design, it makes no sense. ACR and FXX are good looking cars with a few mechanical and aero mods for the track. Underneath, there is good design, like a really hot girl wearing catchers gear for a softball game. Underneath she is a hottie. The gumpert is like a rosanne bar wearing goalie pads.

But if you were a heart surgeon, and another surgeon botched an operation....and me (who has no training to be in the medical field) started telling you that I know what im talking about.....you would be like WTF....and thats what we feel like: WTF

No you didn't claim to be some shit hot designer. You just made it seem that way by say I shouldn't comment on things I don't understand. An arrogant comment based on something you made up. I never commented on the analysis at all. I took exception to being told to go buy a Corolla when I stated my taste in a car.

What's under the add ons is good looking but with the add-ons they are ugly. That's all we said. I didn't say either car wasn't a fantastic design from a pure design perspective in it's original form. The FXX is slightly different. The ACR is very different in that they just took the VERY GOOD LOOKING Viper and left it in a trailer park overnight then copied what was done to it.

If you met Charlize Theron in her full makeup for Monster and didn't know who she was underneath you wouldn't give her a second look in case you threw up. That's what happens with the ACR. Even knowing there's a good looking car underneath doesn't change the fact that it's been made up to be ugly. That's my point.

I never said your analysis was wrong or inaccurate. In fact I said I enjoyed your humourous picture analysis. What I said was that regardless of the rules followed, people either like or don't like the look of cars. Personal taste.

Now we've established I never knocked your critique and was only commenting on my personal taste (which won't be changed by anyone) can we be friends again?

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by wiggyx

Failure to read own posts.

Nope. Read the sentence.

You can't analyse the shape of something that was designed for the track using road car constructs. Stick up a picture of an F1 car and see how well that works using those rules.

Where does that say you can't analyse the Gumpert?
It says that if you accept that A car was designed for the track then it will have different design rules which are going to be very different to road car rules. The Caparo is the same but I was referring to the Gumpert in this case. You were asked to critique it by someone so you did but you did it based on road car rules. I didn't say anything about that. You did what someone asked. I still think it should be analysed as the track car it was designed to be with minimal road ability in order to attract more sales but I never said you shouldn't critique it.

Failure to read the words on your part.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Koroush

Ahhh, the Capro T1 would be the winner but the only problem with it is that it explodes when driven.

I hope they fix that little problem.

What he said.

[SoreHead]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

The gumpert is like a rosanne bar wearing goalie pads.[/B]

Ah jayzus. I haven't had breakfast yet.

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Ok lets look at this piece by piece.
Firstly, apparently whatever training you did negated your ability to read.

1. By having a normal opinion on different cars does not make me uneducated. It does make you sound like you think you're some kind of genius. Designed any cars we know recently? If you were responsible for the DB9 then maybe I'll bow to that. Otherwise I stated my taste which is not uneducated in any way. As for actual education I'm retired at 42 so my education obviously wasn't a problem. As for Gumpert and ACR being equally ugly that's just another one of your fabrications. I never made any comment on levels of ugly. There's no need. Ugly is ugly when it comes to buying and regardless of situation I wouldn't buy either. For the record I think the Gumpert is uglier but the ACR looks like a trailer park car.

I meant in terms of design.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

2. If you read the entire post you will see that I definitely did say the Viper was a very good looking car and that it was the ACR version that ruined it. (I can understand this bit as I've brushed through long posts before and missed stuff but it's definitely there in the earlier pages. It's in a reply to robo so that should make it easier to find)

Yeah, after the fact you finally clarified that. If it makes you feel better I'll retract my previous statement. I wouldn't have made it in the first place if you had made your opinion on the non-ACR Viper clearer.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

3. I made no comment on the break down of your analysis at all. NON. NOT A WORD. What I commented on was you statement that I should buy a Corolla because I don't like the look of the Viper. Try to keep it factual here will you.

Again, knowing your opinion negates that comment.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

4. I HAVE NEVER DEFENDED THE LOOKS OF THE GUMPERT. Jesus. Why is that point being ignored by BOTH of you???? I said it was an excellent track car and it is. As for the seeing it in the flesh. I'll do this in big letters so you can see it. I SAID THE FIT AND FINISHED WAS EXCELLENT BUT IT WAS STILL UGLY. That statement still has nothing to do with the design of the car. Just the build quality. The beauty in the eye of the beholder was referring to the Viper ACR NOT THE GUMPERT. And I stand over that. As you'll see a couple of posts above Footie thinks the same thing I so about the ACR so I'm not the only uneducated philistine apparently.

That's not what I'm arguing. I tried to clarify that I was arguing the comment you made about not having any business critiquing a cars' design when it's purpose-built.

Originally Posted by SoreHead

However, all the rules in the world won't guarantee people will like whatever you come up with.

This is very true, but it can help ensure that the most people possible find it at least digestible, versus just a select few. See my bit about the Aztec earlier. Yeah, they sold some, but not enough. Had it been a better looking car they surely would have sold more. Would everyone like it? Of course not, but more people would have liked it. That's the goal; design so that as many people as possible (of the intended target market) like it.

[Cyclenirvana]

Interesting video from an exotic car cruise in California shot from a Ford GT. Note the orange Gumpert.
http://www.speedandmotion.com/pages/.../PCHOct08.html

Also, more from Edmunds about the designer of the car as well as its feature (seat is fixed but pedals and steering wheel are adjustable):
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...1/pageNumber=1

I actually like the car. From talking with people who have seen it in person, it is very well put together. But of course the looks are very subjective, and we all have opinions...but I find the "design" flaws discussion interesting. To read this discussion, I would have the impression that the comments were being made by Ferrari's or GM's engineering/design team...but I have a feeling that is far from the truth.....
Perhaps Roland Gumpert should give the "design expert" on this forum a call, after all he doesn't know what he is doing?? Anyone here designed any cars lately? Prototypes?

The surgeon analogy is interesting. As a physician, I could critique another physician's expertise and practice but to do so, I would need to show that we practice equally (e.g. same subspeciality, similar mix of patients, similar techniques, similar numbers of procedures, etc). Simply practicing in the health care field is not sufficient. A floor nurse is not qualified to critique a neurosurgeon's removal of a pituitary tumor; an internist could never be qualified as an expert witness arguing against an orthopedic surgeon's technique for removal of an osteosarcoma. To comment as an "expert" on car design, I would believe you would need to design cars...not just talk about "design" in a generic sense. In other words, you need to establish sufficient credibility. Obviously, we can all have opinions but IMHO the comments from the post "designer" sound like expert testimony without sufficient credentials. But I may be wrong...and I welcome being proven wrong if you can show me your car designs??!?

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by SoreHead

Nope. Read the sentence.

You can't analyse the shape of something that was designed for the track using road car constructs. Stick up a picture of an F1 car and see how well that works using those rules.

...blah blah blah...

Failure to read the words on your part.

So, you weren't talking about the Gumpert then? Please. This whole thread is based around the Gumpert and you were quoting somebody who had made a comment about its styling. Dude, you have a seriously thick skull. For fuck's sake, there's a giant pic of the Gumpert in the post that you were quoting. You're talking in circles.

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by Cyclenirvana

Interesting video from an exotic car cruise in California shot from a Ford GT. Note the orange Gumpert.
http://www.speedandmotion.com/pages/.../PCHOct08.html

Also, more from Edmunds about the designer of the car as well as its feature (seat is fixed but pedals and steering wheel are adjustable):
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpconta...1/pageNumber=1

I actually like the car. From talking with people who have seen it in person, it is very well put together. But of course the looks are very subjective.
Perhaps Roland Gumpert should give the "design expert" on this forum a call, after all he doesn't know what he is doing?? Anyone here designed any cars lately? Prototypes? help:
The surgeon analogy is interesting. As a physician, I could comment on another physician's expertise...but to do so, I would need to show that we practice equally...in other words similar mix of patients, similar techniques, similar numbers of procedures, etc. To comment as an "expert" on car design, I would believe you would need to design cars...not just talk about "design" in a generic way. In other words, you need to establish credibility. Make me a believer! Show me your designs! :

Nothing ive done is out until 2011. i can show you my stuff from school.



im really tired of trying to explain something that took me 5 years to learn. you guys obviously dont see it. And i was refering to a two surgeons criting each others work and the SOME GUY WHO KNOWS NOTHING ABOUT THE MEDICAL FIELD COMING IN AND SAYING THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

I would stop this argument if you Sorehead would stop sneaking some little dig in each and every one of his posts, from the VERY FIRST POST

[wiggyx]

^^^ "Now with 38" wheels!"

I still love that car. The model was fab-tastic.

[SUB-ZERO]

It may be ugly as sin but I'll take one....

...sell it and buy myself an F430 Scuderia (Black on Blabk with a full factory CF package and the Daytona seats).

-SZ

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by wiggyx

^^^ "Now with 38" wheels!"

I still love that car. The model was fab-tastic.

the model of which he speaks...i had the wheels milled out and they came back a bit bigger than i thought, lol

[Robo Squirrel]

another model

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

another model

I remember how much grief the paint gave you with this one.

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by wiggyx

I remember how much grief the paint gave you with this one.

damn raspberry candy paint >:| haha....it turned out ok tho. thats the reason i just tell everyone to use chromabase. Although on the caddy i used a pearl for the white parts and the wheels....which is essentially the same process, except alot hard to mess up

[footie]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

You guys just plain dont get it. You lack the vision to see the difference. And i never said i was some hot shit designer.

The FXX and ACR are different than the apollo b/c the viper and enzo are nicely and cohesively designed vehicles, love them or hate them, they are well put together (not talking about fit and finish) The gumpert is not well designed....it has no design, it makes no sense. ACR and FXX are good looking cars with a few mechanical and aero mods for the track. Underneath, there is good design, like a really hot girl wearing catchers gear for a softball game. Underneath she is a hottie. The gumpert is like a rosanne bar wearing goalie pads.

But if you were a heart surgeon, and another surgeon botched an operation....and me (who has no training to be in the medical field) started telling you that I know what im talking about.....you would be like WTF....and thats what we feel like: WTF

I think it's you that doesn't get it, or should I say the Gumpert's design that you don't get. It was never meant to be a thing of beauty, that's perfectly clear when you look at it but what the Gumpert does that none of the other do is produce lots of down force, enough in fact that it could drive upside down at speeds in excess of 170mph.

I look at an F1 car and don't go all weak at the knees because of it's beauty, the same thing applies here to.

P.S.
Never did like the FXX and especially not the Viper, it's American vulgarity at it's best, or is that the PT Cruiser. Maybe it me not getting the Viper, maybe you have to be American to except it's excessively wide stance, it's vulgar side pipes, it's twin bulges on the roof. You may well look at the Viper ACR and go all wet but me I'm sorry but I think it looks just as awful as the Gumpert but in a different way.

[Robo Squirrel]

Originally Posted by footie

I think it's you that doesn't get it, or should I say the Gumpert's design that you don't get. It was never meant to be a thing of beauty, that's perfectly clear when you look at it but what the Gumpert does that none of the other do is produce lots of down force, enough in fact that it could drive upside down at speeds in excess of 170mph.

I look at an F1 car and don't go all weak at the knees because of it's beauty, the same thing applies here to.

P.S.
Never did like the FXX and especially not the Viper, it's American vulgarity at it's best, or is that the PT Cruiser. Maybe it me not getting the Viper, maybe you have to be American to except it's excessively wide stance, it's vulgar side pipes, it's twin bulges on the roof. You may well look at the Viper ACR and go all wet but me I'm sorry but I think it looks just as awful as the Gumpert but in a different way.

It still has styling to it. I can tell when something is pure engineering, and the gumpert is not. You just dont see it, you dont get it...you have to have the training to see it...and you dont.

I KNOW what the gumpert was designed for. There are other cars designed for the same thing the gumpert is. They are not even close to being as hideous. The viper is a cohesive, well thought out design. not because its american or any of that bullshit. it just is. its not that vulgar. the gumpert is very vulgar.

Im saying the same thing over and over

[wiggyx]

Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel

damn raspberry candy paint >:| haha....it turned out ok tho. thats the reason i just tell everyone to use chromabase. Although on the caddy i used a pearl for the white parts and the wheels....which is essentially the same process, except alot hard to mess up

Yeah, the pearl is so hard to muck up. I did that Mica Glacier whaterthehellitscalled on the whale as you may recall.

Originally Posted by footie

I think it's you that doesn't get it, or should I say the Gumpert's design that you don't get. It was never meant to be a thing of beauty, that's perfectly clear when you look at it but what the Gumpert does that none of the other do is produce lots of down force, enough in fact that it could drive upside down at speeds in excess of 170mph.

That'd be all fine and dandy if they hadn't so obviously tried to style it like a road car/track car hodge-podge. If it looked like it had been purpose built then we'd leave it alone, but it doesn't.

Originally Posted by footie

P.S.
Never did like the FXX and especially not the Viper, it's American vulgarity at it's best, or is that the PT Cruiser. Maybe it me not getting the Viper, maybe you have to be American to except it's excessively wide stance, it's vulgar side pipes, it's twin bulges on the roof. You may well look at the Viper ACR and go all wet but me I'm sorry but I think it looks just as awful as the Gumpert but in a different way.

Vulgarity?! Obviously you don't have to like it, but why exactly is it vulgar? It's a pure driving machine. No excessive electronic nanny's to keep you in check, very few creature comforts, etc.

edit: Why are you bringing the PT into this and how the hell is it vulgar? Is this going to turn into a US bashing thread?

[immiketoo]

Boys! This debate is hilarious. Robo and wiggy; trying to explain technical car design to people is like trying to explain what sex feels like to a virgin. I thouroghly enjoyed the breakdown... What is a fillet? I think fish sandwich. Please help! The models you made are awesome and you clearly have the eye for aesthetics.

As for the Gumpert, paint the ugly little fucker stealth fighter flat black (Its gonna need radar absorption capabilities). Car design is part sceince, part art and part who gives a fuck what you think. The Gumpert is ugly in name and form but its stupid fast (I knew a girl like that once...) and it does what it's supposed to. So it has a little ass crack showing. (I knew a girl like that once too) So what? Sell it to batman or the military or pizza delivery drivers and the cops, stand back and watch the carnage

I do have a question. Have either of you ever seen a car and hated it, to later decide you really like it? OR that you love it when you first see it and hate it a short time later? Some examples for me have been the 1996 mustang cobra (Hated it, later bought two), and the Chrysler Concorde and Nissan 300Z liked them at first then couldn't stand the sight. What is that?

And for the record, the Aztek is the ugliest POS ever designed. Period. Haven't changed my mind EVER.