[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by DreaminBMW

49 pages of passion! Great to see! For all the good, bad and goofy on here, there’s a couple constants: don’t fool yourself, if there’s this much attention about this car for good or bad, BMW has hit it out of the park! No judgment, but there are a lot of first world problems coming out on this thread! I for one am on the outside looking in, ie: leased an X1 for a few years and that’s as much as I’ve tasted but have been looking at BMW Blog and Bimmerpost for a long time. Consider yourselves lucky to be able to complain about this car and it’s perceived issues. Lotta people on the outside looking in think this an awesome ride no matter the minor issues.

You have my respect and undivided attention my friend

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by nachob

3800 lbs, bigger and uglier. What part of people wanting smaller lighter cars did BMW not get again? They killed it with 1M, then M2 noe they're going right back to the same lame stuff that lost them tons of fans. The reality is most people don't care about weight just horsepower and the badge so they will sell but the sadness is that they make tons of heavy bloated SUVs and M cars. Why couldn't they just keep one model for those that need a back seat but still want a small, light sports coupe? For the first time in 20 years I didn't buy a new BMW and sad about it. Best of luck BMW, the Ultimate Bloated Machine.

I still stand by my controversial opinion that the car would have been better with a tuned up B58 (ala OG M2) and then using those cost savings to put the car on a good diet. The reduced power and torque would reduce the need for significant bracing to the chassis as an immediate saving.

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by DreaminBMW

49 pages of passion! Great to see! For all the good, bad and goofy on here, there’s a couple constants: don’t fool yourself, if there’s this much attention about this car for good or bad, BMW has hit it out of the park! No judgment, but there are a lot of first world problems coming out on this thread! I for one am on the outside looking in, ie: leased an X1 for a few years and that’s as much as I’ve tasted but have been looking at BMW Blog and Bimmerpost for a long time. Consider yourselves lucky to be able to complain about this car and it’s perceived issues. Lotta people on the outside looking in think this an awesome ride no matter the minor issues.

I appreciate this sentiment, I had to sell my F22 several years ago as part of the planned funding for relocating back home. Now I have to wait for my life to be fully settled here again with a house before I can look at the logical successor to the 235i that I couldn't get in the US. The 140i.

One day.

[ronin13013]

That and the AMG a45s. Travesty.

Originally Posted by aaaaah

I appreciate this sentiment, I had to sell my F22 several years ago as part of the planned funding for relocating back home. Now I have to wait for my life to be fully settled here again with a house before I can look at the logical successor to the 235i that I couldn't get in the US. The 140i.

One day.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

I still stand by my controversial opinion that the car would have been better with a tuned up B58 (ala OG M2) and then using those cost savings to put the car on a good diet. The reduced power and torque would reduce the need for significant bracing to the chassis as an immediate saving.

So confused. So replace the stellar S58 with an inferior motor, and increase body flex? So, you want it to perform worse, just so it can be lighter? I just... just don't understand.

By that logic, why not also reduce the gas tank to 5 gallons, put in a 4 cylinder motor? Again, what am I missing?

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by Squidget

So confused. So replace the stellar S58 with an inferior motor, and increase body flex? So, you want it to perform worse, just so it can be lighter? I just... just don't understand.

By that logic, why not also reduce the gas tank to 5 gallons, put in a 4 cylinder motor? Again, what am I missing?

Because Toyota Supra?

I don't know.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by F87inJAX

Lol hey no argument from me there. I’ll admit I’ve thought the same thing about him at times. If you go back to the start and watch his videos when he first got that black OG M2… Ripping around crowded London streets like a knob… Yep. He’s definitely been all about trying to build his brand. However regardless of what I might think personally, I can be dispassionate enough to admit I’ve found some (not all) of his videos informative or interesting. I just take in all the content I can get from whatever sources, then I come to my own conclusions. He’s just one source in a sea of stuff.

Agree with you. And we've focused so much on the TH review, I had to go back and re-watch the JA review. If you're set on buying an M2, just watch that one - you'll congratulate yourself and probably end up upgrading to the carbon pack as well.

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Agree with you. And we've focused so much on the TH review, I had to go back and re-watch the JA review. If you're set on buying an M2, just watch that one - you'll congratulate yourself and probably end up upgrading to the carbon pack as well.

Speaking of - I went back and watched the TH review of the 2019 M2 Comp. At around 7:50 Thomas does a 4th gear pull from 2500 rpm and notes the slight delay from the turbos. Never had that problem with mine, but then again I was probably never in 4th gear at 2500 and trying to floor it.

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by Squidget

So confused. So replace the stellar S58 with an inferior motor, and increase body flex? So, you want it to perform worse, just so it can be lighter? I just... just don't understand.

By that logic, why not also reduce the gas tank to 5 gallons, put in a 4 cylinder motor? Again, what am I missing?

There are more considerations to bracing the structure of a chassis, the subframe and other components beyond body rigidity. There is a large burden to be taken up with making sure that the driveline components don't twist themselves out of the car itself within the lifetime of corporate responsibility for the vehicle.

We can play the black or white game if you want and I can say, why not put a roll cage in, rose joint all of the suspension, take away all spring travel so it's as rigid as possible. Solid mount the driveline. Perhaps you can imagine a reason why you wouldn't want to do this? Or perhaps we can have a rational discussion rather than jumping to the extremes.

We can argue that technically the S58 is a better engine, but does it provide a subjective improvement that would outweigh a 300lb weight reduction? The S58 is a noticeably heavier engine than the B58 as you can't escape the weight of an additional turbo and the required cooling. In the current form, the S58 provides a 70hp (+18%) increase over the B58. If you put the rotating bottom end assembly from the S58 in the B58, how close could you reliably get to that 450hp mark for minimal extra cost?

Personally, I think the B58 sounds better than the S58, much like how the N55 sounded better than the S55 and a big part of buying a sports car is the noise that they make.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

Or perhaps we can have a rational discussion rather than jumping to the extremes.

Woah there, you are the one who started tossing hypotheticals, I'm just trying to understand the rationale and how far you want to go. Because it's not at all clear.

Originally Posted by aaaaah

We can argue that technically the S58 is a better engine, but does it provide a subjective improvement that would outweigh a 300lb weight reduction?

I'd argue that the superior performance of the G87 (as a whole platform), provides evidence that it does. That's my whole point. Corners better, better planted, adaptive suspension, superior diff, equal if not better acceleration. That's the observable evidence. I don't see any evidence that replacing the S58 motor will result in a better product. I am, in fact, pretty skeptical it does, else BMW would probably have retained the F87 setup.

So I'll argue there is both concrete and circumstantial evidence that the additional weight was, in fact, a required part of making a "better" car. Better performing, more tunable, more comfortable, better interior materials, better noise deadening, better tech.

These things may not be what you value, and in that case, sure, it's weight for no gain, to you. If that's your position, I respect that. I just don't like when people handwave "it shouldn't weigh so much" without thinking about the goodies that weight allows.

Originally Posted by aaaaah

Personally, I think the B58 sounds better than the S58, much like how the N55 sounded better than the S55 and a big part of buying a sports car is the noise that they make.

On that, I have no disagreement. You like what you like.

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

I still stand by my controversial opinion that the car would have been better with a tuned up B58 (ala OG M2) and then using those cost savings to put the car on a good diet. The reduced power and torque would reduce the need for significant bracing to the chassis as an immediate saving.

The F87 wasn’t better than the F87C with that approach; why would that work here?

BTW, I have yet to see a review with someone complaining about the car actually driving like a heavy car, all the complaints are based on what the spec sheet says. Weight isn’t a problem when it allows for a powerful motor, stiff chassis, excellent overall performance, and a reasonable price.

[donm527]

Eh... maybe for a GT car. But this is an M car. A car that you should be able to take on the weekends for track days. Like an RS3 where you can option Cup 2 tires from the factory for like $400 I believe I read somewhere? I don't think people that have thoughts about tracking the M2 will necessarily agree with that statement the weight was a necessary evil.

The M240i fits that GT mold... Has the power of the previous gen M2 but more comfortable, better interior materials, better noise deadening, better tech but on the heavy side.

M2 is fast and should be a fun car. But with the M240i being about 3800 pounds and people calling it heavy, I think people was expecting the M to be around 3600 pounds and 100hp more powerful and go 0-60 in 3.3 at least. They could have gotten away with less sound deadening material and such to give it a more edgier feel.

They are marketing it as fast and fun car. Sounds like it will.

Originally Posted by Squidget

So I'll argue there is both concrete and circumstantial evidence that the additional weight was, in fact, a required part of making a "better" car. Better performing, more tunable, more comfortable, better interior materials, better noise deadening, better tech.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by donm527

Eh... maybe for a GT car. But this is an M car. A car that you should be able to take on the weekends for track days.

You totally can, tho? You'll definitely beat a vanilla F87 on the track, and likely it's also gonna beat Comps too. This car is likely to be the best (non-CS) M2 on the track, ever. AND more comfortable on the street too.

See, that's the root of my confusion. People keep saying "weight is bad!" and I say "why tho?" and the response I get is "but... weight... bad!" This car is heavy but it's still scary good, so don't see why it's such a big deal. What am I missing?

To be clear, I agree lighter is better than heavier, *all things being equal.* But things are not equal. You are getting a LOT for that weight, including better handling and 0-60 times! Which is a miracle.

That's before you do even the most basic weight mods. Wheels, battery, carbon, and you already dropped, what, 100-ish lbs? Probably can also assume +30 HP from basic ECU tune? I could be wrong, but it seems like some straightforward mods may get you near CS territory.

Just, ya know, save some extra money for the brakes and tires you'll burn up on the track. The weight is gonna hurt you there, I totally admit it.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by donm527

But with the M240i being about 3800 pounds and people calling it heavy, I think people was expecting the M to be around 3600 pounds and 100hp more powerful and go 0-60 in 3.3 at least.

Hah, no way. That would cannibalize the M4. Never going to happen. They detuned the S58 for a reason. People have unrealistic expectations. The F87 wasn't that; the F87C wasn't that. Why does anyone think the base G87 would be that?

A variant COULD be that, of course, since it has a CLAR chassis, S58, and all the support plumbing. Maybe we'll get a G87CS that is that... for about $25K extra (or more).

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by donm527

Eh... maybe for a GT car. But this is an M car. A car that you should be able to take on the weekends for track days. Like an RS3 where you can option Cup 2 tires from the factory for like $400 I believe I read somewhere? I don't think people that have thoughts about tracking the M2 will necessarily agree with that statement the weight was a necessary evil.

The M240i fits that GT mold... Has the power of the previous gen M2 but more comfortable, better interior materials, better noise deadening, better tech but on the heavy side.

M2 is fast and should be a fun car. But with the M240i being about 3800 pounds and people calling it heavy, I think people was expecting the M to be around 3600 pounds and 100hp more powerful and go 0-60 in 3.3 at least. They could have gotten away with less sound deadening material and such to give it a more edgier feel.

They are marketing it as fast and fun car. Sounds like it will.

What people feel the base G87 should be almost the power of the G80/82 Comp and top them 0-60? While many would indeed love it, including me, at the G87 price point, it absolutely makes no sense that it would have ever been the plans or case.

What does sound deadening have to do with "edginess"? Edginess should be related to performance, sound inside the car does not.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Hah, no way. That would cannibalize the M4. Never going to happen. They detuned the S58 for a reason. People have unrealistic expectations. The F87 wasn't that; the F87C wasn't that. Why does anyone think the base G87 would be that?

A variant COULD be that, of course, since it has a CLAR chassis, S58, and all the support plumbing. Maybe we'll get a G87CS that is that... for about $25K extra (or more).

We were on the same page, you just beat me by two minutes. Lol

[donm527]

Yeah I realize that too that they pretty much "Cayman-ized" the M2 putting that car in an odd position that it could easily been more but will always be slotted behind the M4.

Originally Posted by Squidget

Hah, no way. That would cannibalize the M4. Never going to happen. They detuned the S58 for a reason.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by donm527

Their M2 discussion is from 19 min mark to 36 if interested. They liked the car. Fast car.

idk about that. they kind of gave a mixed review of positives and negatives during that little segment.

fast forward to 1:30 and 1:32 for fan questions

Matt flat out says he would rather take the CT4v Blackwing and RS3 over the new M2.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

We were on the same page, you just beat me by two minutes. Lol

LOL, you likewise beat me on the sound deadening! I salute you!

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

Matt flat out says he would rather take the CT4v Blackwing and RS3 over the new M2.

CT4-V BW is legit. But the RS3? Eww. Not in my house, not with that heavy nose.

Edit: ALSO, not coupes, right? 4 doors.

[donm527]

I should have just expanded on that thought further. I didn't mean just remove sound deadening alone to give it edginess. I mean they could have, maybe, done more to strip down the weight, delete/reduce some of the creature comfort items to make it lighter and other changes.

Design towards a more track focused car with a little less refinement and luxury different from M4 buyer that want that level of refinement and luxury. If an M4 buyer wants more performance then they have CS model and above.

Just my thought of what an M2 should be like.

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

What does sound deadening have to do with "edginess"? Edginess should be related to performance, sound inside the car does not.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by nachob

3800 lbs, bigger and uglier. What part of people wanting smaller lighter cars did BMW not get again? They killed it with 1M, then M2 noe they're going right back to the same lame stuff that lost them tons of fans. The reality is most people don't care about weight just horsepower and the badge so they will sell but the sadness is that they make tons of heavy bloated SUVs and M cars. Why couldn't they just keep one model for those that need a back seat but still want a small, light sports coupe? For the first time in 20 years I didn't buy a new BMW and sad about it. Best of luck BMW, the Ultimate Bloated Machine.

Lost tons of fans? Well, US sales grew from 232,032 units in 2002 to over 346,023 in 2015. Almost every single year was a record year. It appears they’re gaining fans.