[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

I'm saying that the naturally talented greats in F1 stood out from their first races.
If you were around to watch Senna when he first appeared in F1 you would know what I mean.
Or Alonso when he first drove the Minardi at 19.
Same Schumacher and Hamilton.

Yes you can learn to be a fast racer like Verstappen but it takes time....he can never be put in the same sentence as Senna as regards pure driving talent.

I dont agree. I do think Max is the second coming of Senna but honestly a guy with shorter and more precise corners and a supreme level of control of the car and friction circle. None of the aforementioned guys were ever strapped into an F1 before they had a license like Max was. They had another several years of maturity and doubt would have faired as well at 17 like Max did. I think he did impress right away - even Lauda's comments about Max were far more superlative than anything he ever said about Ham, while working for MB, nonetheless. To be in what was a car nowhere near the front of the grid from a competitive standpoint and to be nipping at the heels of the most dominant cars F1 has ever seen is a testament to his natural ability. Again, you take away the 80-100 hp advantage Ham enjoyed and he'd have looked like the maybe slightly above average driver he as we can see by his lack of results now that we see the most competitive field with the most parity up and down the grid that F1 has ever seen. Now that Max has a solid good car, and nothing like the world beater MB which also got secret (cheat) tire tests, he is setting records and doing things MB never could because that type of stuff comes down to natural talent especially considering he's wiped the floor with everyone in all weather too.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

I'm saying that the naturally talented greats in F1 stood out from their first races.
If you were around to watch Senna when he first appeared in F1 you would know what I mean.
Or Alonso when he first drove the Minardi at 19.
Same Schumacher and Hamilton.

Yes you can learn to be a fast racer like Verstappen but it takes time....he can never be put in the same sentence as Senna as regards pure driving talent.

You want to talk about first races ? Well, let's do that. Every F1 career starts at the karting track.

In case you wondered whether Max Verstappen was weak sauce during his early race days.

During his first three karting years Verstappen won 59 out of 60 championship races. Often competing with older kids. The only race he did not win was due to a mechanical failure.

2006-2009: Verstappen (°1997) annihilated the competition by winning 124 out of 130 races (except for 2006, he competed in multiple karting championships at the same time). He won all 9 championships he competed in.

BBC documentary of 2015 (± 11 mins):

One of the best karting circuits worldwide is located in Genk (Belgium), about 15 minutes away from Verstappen's Belgian house where he was raised. Several F1 drivers have raced that circuit during their karting days. Verstappen spent most of his karting training there. Long-time circuit owner Paul Lemmens witnessed the rise of Verstappen from his earliest days in karting until he entered F1. Here is what he said in a 2015 interview:

"Actually he won everything he could win. And even more incredible, during his final year in karting, he won in two categories, which is, as such, an extraordinary feat. After he finished in one category he stepped over into another one and won. Phenomenal. Actually incredible. I don't know the number of laps that Max has driven here, but it must have been thousands. But first and foremost because the kid liked it. And Jos [Verstappen] also got involved. Every free day, every free school day, every vacation: they were here from morning till evening, driving all the time. Once that he had learned the tricks of the trade, he was virtually invincible, except for mechanical failure. But otherwise... And if he encountered mechanical failure he simply drove from the back to the front. We have a lot of known people, like Alonso, Fisichella, of course his father Jos [Verstappen], all who are in Formula 1: [Michael] Schumacher, also [Jérome] d'Ambrosio started here, [Jenson] Button. All those names. I have known them all since they were still very young kids. Performing at that age what Max has done ? Well, I have nowhere seen this nor ever encountered, no. Jos [Verstappen] has driven here and he was also a very gifted pilot. But Jos [Verstappen] will not blame me if I say that I think that Max is better, haha. And if you have a dad with the package of having already karting and Formula 1 experience: that's an incredible asset for Max. If he gets into a good team, then this man will be world champion. That's a certainty."

FIA 2013 championship: Max Verstappen (kart #24) versus Charles Leclerc (kart #34) - 15 year old kids fighting at the Genk circuit for ± 20 mins:

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Artemis

You want to talk about first races ? Well, let's do that. Every F1 career starts at the karting track.

In case you wondered whether Max Verstappen was weak sauce during his early race days.

Some people just don't want to admit that Max is as good as he is and has done it in a manner that his driving is the only thing that truly seperates him. For Sch as good as he was, there was a lot of dirty driving, for Ham it was a dominant car with 80-100 more hp than everyone else. Stevie Wonder could have driven Ham's MB to victory with ease.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Autobacs

The Beatles disagree with you and millions of others too. That is why "Can't buy me love" became one of their hits.

Can't buy love but you can buy HOT...To quote Van Halen "Ain't talking bout love"

BTW...The Beatles were a bunch of no talent hippie a$$clowns

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Some people just don't want to admit that Max is as good as he is and has done it in a manner that his driving is the only thing that truly seperates him. For Sch as good as he was, there was a lot of dirty driving, for Ham it was a dominant car with 80-100 more hp than everyone else. Stevie Wonder could have driven Ham's MB to victory with ease.

Alike Verstappen, also Hamilton was raised by his very dedicated father with the strong determination to win races. Hard-coded inside their minds, going for the kill time and time again - one-track minds for winning. F1 is a 'dog-eat-dog' world. On track, a true race driver is not necessarily a true gentleman. 'Kind' drivers normally never make it to F1 - ruthless competitors have them for lunch.

As spectator, it's sometimes hard to understand the human side of it all, but many F1 race drivers have a different approach and mindset. And lots of money and pride/ego is involved.

Hamilton in 2016 on how being a notorious "late braker" himself is an important part of becoming a champion and how "that's definitely one skill that you want to have":

Hamilton in 2016 on being competitive as F1 driver: "I'm as competitive as anyone I know. I'd like to think that I am the most competitive person I know in everything I do. But it's different when I was younger: when I was younger, there's no losing. You know, I would never think that losing was acceptable. But now, being older, I understand that losing is actually a part of it. Losing is actually what helped me to be the driver I am today. Those lows make the highs even higher.":

One of the last processes in fabricating a sword is quenching and tempering it. Quenching hardens the metal so it holds an edge longer but this also makes it very brittle. To restore some ductility and durability the sword is tempered. With swords, due to their length, the challenge is greater as in a typical quenching it is possible to bend or warp the blade if it is not introduced to the quenchant smoothly and evenly.

Both Hamilton and Verstappen have been shaped by their past involving countless hours driving karts on tracks since they were kids. They were undeniably super talented from the get-go and their dads were vital in helping them blossom their talents. Experiences good and bad on a personal level and a tremendous time spent on karting tracks and later on professional race tracks, quenched and tempered the extraordinary talents and personality of both Hamilton and Verstappen. They gradually became an ace at handling their mighty swords. You cannot "undo" any of that: those guys keep improving their Grandmaster skills. But as age goes on and the body grows older, top performance in a top sport becomes increasingly draining.

The problem for Hamilton is that, at the age of 39, with Verstappen around in the form and with the experience, maturity and mindset he currently masters at the age of 26, his chances to ever get an 8th WDC have virtually vaporized. It's sobering to face, but only should Verstappen become incapacitated by some adverse event impeding him to fight for race wins in the future, 2020 will have been the last WDC title for Hamilton. In the meantime Hamilton will require to walk the extra mile to physically keep up with the physical condition of youngsters, and on a mental level frustration risks to keep growing by facing the race results.

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Some people just don't want to admit that Max is as good as he is and has done it in a manner that his driving is the only thing that truly seperates him. For Sch as good as he was, there was a lot of dirty driving, for Ham it was a dominant car with 80-100 more hp than everyone else. Stevie Wonder could have driven Ham's MB to victory with ease.

ANY F1 driver on the grid could win with RB19 or 20, could you say the same for the Merc, probably. So what?

I've said this before but few listen, if you have followed F1 for long enough special drives come along, each era also needs different skills. Can all adapt, sometimes, but often certain styles don't, Senna would struggle with his style in a current car for example.

Senna
Schumacher
Mansell
Alonso
Hamilton
Max

For me are the greats in my time, some definitely more than others. Others are good but not greats, Vettel would be one, Kimi another. The best have the magic to get something out of the car others can't. Look at them when they are in a GP2 (or equivalent) all cars the same that's when it shows the most.

Do I like them all, no, do I respect the talents that they have absolutely, if you follow the sport long enough your favoured driver comes and goes, be successful across multiple teams winning with more than one team, even better.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

I'm saying that the naturally talented greats in F1 stood out from their first races.
If you were around to watch Senna when he first appeared in F1 you would know what I mean.
Or Alonso when he first drove the Minardi at 19.
Same Schumacher and Hamilton.

Yes you can learn to be a fast racer like Verstappen but it takes time....he can never be put in the same sentence as Senna as regards pure driving talent.

Hammy stepped into a VERY Fast title contending McLaren his rookie year 2007. Same car was fast enough to win his first WDC the very next year. Then a bunch of big fat nothing burgers until cheating Wolff and MB came along in 2014. Now? BIG FAT NOTHING BURGERS AGAIN

Strike hammy from your list

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

ANY F1 driver on the grid could win with RB19 or 20, could you say the same for the Merc, probably. So what?

I've said this before but few listen, if you have followed F1 for long enough special drives come along, each era also needs different skills. Can all adapt, sometimes, but often certain styles don't, Senna would struggle with his style in a current car for example.

Senna
Schumacher
Mansell
Alonso
Hamilton
Max

For me are the greats in my time, some definitely more than others. Others are good but not greats, Vettel would be one, Kimi another. The best have the magic to get something out of the car others can't. Look at them when they are in a GP2 (or equivalent) all cars the same that's when it shows the most.

Do I like them all, no, do I respect the talents that they have absolutely, if you follow the sport long enough your favoured driver comes and goes, be successful across multiple teams winning with more than one team, even better.

I don't actually think the RB18/19/20 are that easy to drive and I dont think most could win with it to the degree Max has. As Albon said, Max's car is so nimble and so sensitive it unnerves you to drive that way. IMO the only guy who would enjoy the set up and balance is Lec.
Ham was never a guy who was able to control the friction circle in the same way Max does. Max is also an early braker where Ham was a late braker and I dont think Ham's style is nearly the same as Max's who is a short corner driver who manipulates the car during the corner to elongate the straights for acceleration. Ham needs a stable rear but who are we kidding, you can give any driver 80-100 more hp and the extra knowledge of secret tire tests and they will win. That took relatively little skill compared to driving the current GE cars, which do need to be driven a bit differently not to stall out the GE.
I agree there are greats, and IMO Ham and Vet are in the same category, very good, but ultimately Vet was only able to be successful during a short period of time and Ham was a product of simple dominance of a car where there was a lot of unfair advantage in his corner - the 80-100 more than EVERY other car, the extra 50-100MM MB would spend, and the levels of cheating they got in tire tests and the seemingly little penalties for things that should have been.
Max is dominating in a way only Sch has in F1 where it is simply the most competitive and most parity, and in fact, RB deals with something no other team ever has - restrictions on their testing and dev due to being the winner.

Max's 100 podiums through 187 races:

1st - 56
2nd - 28
3rd - 16

Those numbers are astounding and are better in terms of 1st place for first 100 podiums than ANYONE save for Sch.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I do think Max is the second coming of Senna...

But what does it matter?

Senna, Max, Vettel, Prost, Clark, and hundreds more; they were all genetic anomalies. They won the genetic lottery, and actually found it through nurture and will, neither of which was their choice. And here's the kicker; one of us could have been better than them all if given the same opportunities, so all this hero worship is down to genetics and circumstance, and quite misguided.

They're human.

As to which one is best, it's literally impossible to tell with any amount of statistical analysis. You'd need all of them not just in their prime, but raised exactly the same with exactly the same opportunities. And then what would you find? The best genetic anomaly. So what.

99.999999% (<----made up statistic) of what is said in this thread is speculation with no real basis in reality (even when it's done incredibly well).

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///MPhatic

But what does it matter?

No matter which F1 driver each of us considers "#1", "the best", "GOAT", etc.: let's appreciate the fact that also in 2024 we can witness Verstappen demonstrating his skills and dexterity.

In the future, when he will have retired from F1, we will realize that, from hindsight, he was definitely an incredibly skilled, one-of-a-kind F1 ace, operating on a different level.

"Max Verstappen Overtaking Compilation in the Wet Brazil 2016":

https://youtube.com/shorts/7la4XYeh8lY

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the future, when he will have retired from F1, we will realize that, from hindsight, he was definitely an incredibly skilled, one-of-a-kind F1 ace, operating on a different level.

- Incredibly skilled, I'll give you that one.
- Every person is one of a kind, and sat in his place with his upbringing may in fact be a better ace.
- On a different level compared to just one other person driving supposedly an exact car.

He's the winner of a double-lottery, but so what.

[Artemis]

Meanwhile...

"Christian Horner: Woman to appeal against Red Bull decision to dismiss complaint"
BBC - March 15, 2024
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/68576295
"The woman who made accusations about Christian Horner's behaviour is to appeal against Red Bull's decision to dismiss her complaint. (...)
The complainant's decision to fight back against Red Bull's actions is a further indication that the controversy is likely to continue for some time."

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

ANY F1 driver on the grid could win with RB19 or 20, could you say the same for the Merc, probably. So what?

I've said this before but few listen, if you have followed F1 for long enough special drives come along, each era also needs different skills. Can all adapt, sometimes, but often certain styles don't, Senna would struggle with his style in a current car for example.

Senna
Schumacher
Mansell
Alonso
Hamilton
Max

For me are the greats in my time, some definitely more than others. Others are good but not greats, Vettel would be one, Kimi another. The best have the magic to get something out of the car others can't. Look at them when they are in a GP2 (or equivalent) all cars the same that's when it shows the most.

Do I like them all, no, do I respect the talents that they have absolutely, if you follow the sport long enough your favoured driver comes and goes, be successful across multiple teams winning with more than one team, even better.

Kimi, one of the great "What ifs" of all time. Fast unreliable cars, drunk, hungover, motivation? What could have been

Video for those too young to know, The Iceman was one fast MF'er

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Hammy stepped into a VERY Fast title contending McLaren his rookie year 2007. Same car was fast enough to win his first WDC the very next year. Then a bunch of big fat nothing burgers until cheating Wolff and MB came along in 2014. Now? BIG FAT NOTHING BURGERS AGAIN

Strike hammy from your list

I would put Hamilton in my list. Unless you don't consider ALO a great, then you can't not consider him as well given that Hamilton matched ALO in that first year and that ALO himself recognizes him as a great driver. If MCL did not have team orders and, coupled with the fact that Ferrari had team orders was a major factor in Kimi winning the F1 title in 2007. With team orders in MCL, I doubt he would have won the WDC.

Having said that, I absolutely don't like the politics he brings to the sport.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Hammy stepped into a VERY Fast title contending McLaren his rookie year 2007. Same car was fast enough to win his first WDC the very next year. Then a bunch of big fat nothing burgers until cheating Wolff and MB came along in 2014. Now? BIG FAT NOTHING BURGERS AGAIN

Strike hammy from your list

Exactly - first WDC not won on merit but due to cheating. After that he couldnt win a thing despite being in a competitive car. Then to MB where the advantage was of biblical portions, then gets beaen by Max in 2021 while Max was in a slower car and despite the efforts of Bot to crash him out in favor of Ham winning it didnt work. Then we move to 2022 where in the 2nd best car on the grid can barely snif a podium, same story for 2023, and 2024 he's getting beaten by a rookie who never stepped foot into the Ferrari until FP3. Once there is a reasonable level of parity, Ham's "skills" and ability to win are nowhere to be found.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Autobacs

I would put Hamilton in my list. Unless you don't consider ALO a great, then you can't not consider him as well given that Hamilton matched ALO in that first year and that ALO himself recognizes him as a great driver. If MCL did not have team orders and, coupled with the fact that Ferrari had team orders was a major factor in Kimi winning the F1 title in 2007. With team orders in MCL, I doubt he would have won the WDC.

Having said that, I absolutely don't like the politics he brings to the sport.

ALO is great driver that never seemed to be at the right place. So yes, I would dismiss him along with hammy.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

ALO is great driver that never seemed to be at the right place. So yes, I would dismiss him along with hammy.

I like Alo but he, like Ham, would not make my top 10 in F1. He did seem to be at the wrong place and wrong time, but I think most of the reason people regard him so highly was his ability to also win in other series besides F1. We all know Max wants to drive other series, and is a top 3 sim racer, in his spare time, so I think he'll be as successful there where you can actually be a bit more physical in say WEC/IMSA.

[Car-Addicted]

You guys intend to keep this up all season? Just asking for a friend.

[M5Rick]

Horner 1
Woman 0
Woman appeals, zz back to snooze, goodnight all.

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

I like Alo but he, like Ham, would not make my top 10 in F1. He did seem to be at the wrong place and wrong time, but I think most of the reason people regard him so highly was his ability to also win in other series besides F1. We all know Max wants to drive other series, and is a top 3 sim racer, in his spare time, so I think he'll be as successful there where you can actually be a bit more physical in say WEC/IMSA.

Most people already had him highly regarded, MS included, BEFORE he went on a Sabbatical and did other racing series

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

You guys intend to keep this up all season? Just asking for a friend.

This will be up while it's still one of the headlines of F1. ALO himself said that when this Horner saga is one of the headlines of F1, it means the saga is just that big, F1 is getting to be predictable and why the Horner saga is as big as the actual races, or both.

[G30M]

Originally Posted by MontyB1

ANY F1 driver on the grid could win with RB19 or 20, could you say the same for the Merc, probably. So what?

Lol if you remove max then Perez is the world champion every season, the guy that everybody says is useless, so I guess that proves your point