[3798j]

Now into the fray...the FIA.
"According to a report from BBC Sport the Red Bull team employee at the heart of the investigation into Horner has lodged an official complaint with the Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), F1’s governing body. As reported by BBC Sport, the official complaint comes following two different whistleblower complaints lodged with the FIA regarding Horner:

BBC Sport has learned that one was made to the FIA ethics and compliance hotline on 2 February, and made direct reference to Horner’s behaviour towards a female employee, asked the FIA to look into it, and expressed a fear that Red Bull could try to cover it up.

The second complaint on 6 March referenced the first and warned that the whistleblower would next inform the media."

https://www.sbnation.com/formula-one...igation-f1-fia

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Senna was nec plus ultra in F1. But his overconfidence was dangerous.

An anecdote recounted by Prost: 44:59 to 48:06:

Not sure how much you can rely on Prost as an independent commentator...Prost and Senna were bitter rivals.
It wasn't over-confidence that got Senna killed it was sketchy welding on his Williams steering column.
I was never a fan of Senna as a person, but he was obviously on a different level right from his first outings in F1.
This on board lap show just how demanding the cars from that era were to drive.
Turn the sound up.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...983772001.html

[Rono63]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Not sure how much you can rely on Prost as an independent commentator...Prost and Senna were bitter rivals.
Firstly I was never a fan of Senna but he was obviously on a different level right from his first outing in F1.
This on board lap show just how demanding the cars from that era were to drive.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...983772001.html

Sure miss the sound of those engines.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Not sure how much you can rely on Prost as an independent commentator...Prost and Senna were bitter rivals.
It wasn't over-confidence that got Senna killed it was sketchy welding on his Williams steering column.
I was never a fan of Senna as a person, but he was obviously on a different level right from his first outings in F1.
This on board lap show just how demanding the cars from that era were to drive.
Turn the sound up.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/v...983772001.html

In the video below you can hear Senna himself saying what Prost recounted in Dec 2021. Prost was not inventing that 1988 anecdote. So, yes, we can rely on what was said by both Prost and Senna instead of rewriting history to fit a personal narrative.

Posted this in January 2017. Overconfidence cost Senna the Monaco 1988 race win - Prost won:

Originally Posted by Artemis

One of the countless reasons why Senna was such a great pilot: watch his body and mind coordination in the video below:

Originally Posted by Artemis

Indeed. Because Senna did not only want to win. He wanted to win his way.

F1 1988 Monaco GP - Qualies results: Senna (P1 - McLaren Honda) 1.427s clear of Prost (P2 - McLaren Honda), 2.687s clear of Berger (P3 - Ferrari) and 3.299s clear of Alboreto (P4 - Ferrari):

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Just so I'm getting this right.

Verstappen with some F1 experience, can't beat Ricciardo, a mid field racer at best, in their couple of years together and crashes out on a regular basis.

Hamilton beats 2 time champion Alonso (widely regarded as one of the best in recent years) in the same car that he had a handful of laps experience in, at tracks he mostly hadn't driven on using whatever car set up Alonso was using (up until Silverstone when Alonso refused to share his set up data with Hamilton any more).

And that makes Verstappen a naturally talented driver and better than Hamilton.
I guess that if you are a big enough fan and only started watching F1 after Verstappen started you could convince yourself that could be true.

But better than Senna!... I can't take anyone who believes that at all seriously.

Where did you get Hamilton only did a handful of laps in the MP-4 22? That is false LOL.

You have to factor in that prior to 2009 testing by all, rookies included, was virtually unlimiited compared to 2009 up to the present which is severely limited in comparison.

And Ricciardo THEN was absolutely not a mid-fielder at best. His form then was up there. He even beat Vettel at Red Bull before Vettel left for Ferrari.

[3798j]

Something (or someone) smells at the FIA...

[Autobacs]

So the saga continues>>>>>

[G30M]

according to this apparently RB told Max manager that he is free to leave if he can't drive with Horner as TP

with new development every day i'm not sure how old this "news" is

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formu...zlaff-32370171

[Sneaky Pete]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the video below you can hear Senna himself saying what Prost recounted in Dec 2021. Prost was not inventing that 1988 anecdote. So, yes, we can rely on what was said by both Prost and Senna instead of rewriting history to fit a personal narrative.

I wasn't suggesting that Prost didn't say Sennas overconfidence made him dangerous...I was saying that whatever Prost said about Senna has to be seen through the prism of his bitter rivalry with Senna.

Compared to Senna, Prost was at the other end of the driving spectrum, he was a very talented but cautious driver.
Senna was easily the most naturally gifted driver of modern F1...but his pass or crash style of driving made him somewhat unpopular with some other drivers. I was a Prost fan at the time and didn't like Senna but I was realistic about his prodigious talent

His debut in the crapbox Toleman in 1984 was really impressive...the car broke most of the time but when it made it to the flag, Senna managed 3 podiums and a 7th. It was obvious to everyone at the time just how special Senna was.

Unsurprisingly this sub-forum contains a high proportion of Verstappen fans, so I guess its unsurprising the level of support he gets.
Shame though that few have the benefit of being long term F1 fans....which tends to give a more objective perspective.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

.....Unsurprisingly this sub-forum contains a high proportion of Verstappen fans, so I guess its unsurprising the level of support he gets.
Shame though that few have the benefit of being long term F1 fans....which tends to give a more objective perspective.

Actually this forum used to have plenty of hammy fans....Most disappeared when he started sucking. Max fans also tend to be more vocal.

Many here are long term fans. I've been watching for 40 years.

[M5Rick]

I ain't saying nothin' against Checo, he's on a limited trial and at the moment is doing well supporting MAX.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

I ain't saying nothin' against Checo, he's on a limited trial and at the moment is doing well supporting MAX.

As you know , Jos Verstappen won last weekend a rally in the Belgian rally Championship.. Yesterday Jos won 'again ,in his Skoda Fabia he won the Belgian 'Ardennes rally !
Source => https://sporza.be/nl/2024/03/16/zo-z...m_medium=email

Like son , like dad !

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Negative, King Taco is a worthless first class a$$ sniffer and would be someone else’s #2

In no universe is Perez a #1

The '2023 season in 8 min... The video tells you everything you need to know.
There will never be a gap higher from number from P1 to P2 ever again in F1. A gap of '292 WDC points is just insane .. and you have to take into account that after race 4 the gap was just 6 points !

MAX vs Checo !

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

As you know , Jos Verstappen won last weekend a rally in the Belgian rally Championship.. Yesterday Jos won 'again ,in his Skoda Fabia he won the Belgian 'Ardennes rally !
Source => https://sporza.be/nl/2024/03/16/zo-z...m_medium=email

Like son , like dad !

Jos the Boss

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Sneaky Pete

Just so I'm getting this right.

Verstappen with some F1 experience, can't beat Ricciardo, a mid field racer at best, in their couple of years together and crashes out on a regular basis.

Hamilton beats 2 time champion Alonso (widely regarded as one of the best in recent years) in the same car that he had a handful of laps experience in, at tracks he mostly hadn't driven on using whatever car set up Alonso was using (up until Silverstone when Alonso refused to share his set up data with Hamilton any more).

And that makes Verstappen a naturally talented driver and better than Hamilton.
I guess that if you are a big enough fan and only started watching F1 after Verstappen started you could convince yourself that could be true.

But better than Senna!... I can't take anyone who believes that at all seriously.

Wait what? Ham got so much seat time in the Mclaren before he got there as there were no testing restrictions then. His experience in that car was vast compared to say Max or any other current gen guy who barely gets a look at a car let alone immense testing time. They're lucky if they get a half dozen laps. It's also been said they were giving Ham upgrades to favor him at Mclaren that Alo never got. Let's also not forget that Ham received supreme support and even favoritism his entire career. I mean even lance stroll looked great in the early formulas when he had a clear advantage over everyone. Ham is one of very few drivers (maybe the only driver) you could say who got a top tier (top 3 car on the grid) car every year of his career, and could never do much to win without the car being the best by a clear head and shoulders margin and still lost to Ros who we all know was barely an average driver.
Max went to RB and beat Ric 60% of the time with little to no experience and Ric was a 5 year veteran and one of the faster guys at that time (remember what he did to Vet who was by all means the best in F1 at the time?). Max also drove that car to top 5 finishes and better when in reality it was, most of the time, a top 9 or 10 finisher. You don't do that if you dont have supreme driving ability and talent.

[Killed by Death]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

Wait what? Ham got so much seat time in the Mclaren before he got there as there were no testing restrictions then. His experience in that car was vast compared to say Max or any other current gen guy who barely gets a look at a car let alone immense testing time. They're lucky if they get a half dozen laps. It's also been said they were giving Ham upgrades to favor him at Mclaren that Alo never got. Let's also not forget that Ham received supreme support and even favoritism his entire career. I mean even lance stroll looked great in the early formulas when he had a clear advantage over everyone. Ham is one of very few drivers (maybe the only driver) you could say who got a top tier (top 3 car on the grid) car every year of his career, and could never do much to win without the car being the best by a clear head and shoulders margin and still lost to Ros who we all know was barely an average driver.
Max went to RB and beat Ric 60% of the time with little to no experience and Ric was a 5 year veteran and one of the faster guys at that time (remember what he did to Vet who was by all means the best in F1 at the time?). Max also drove that car to top 5 finishes and better when in reality it was, most of the time, a top 9 or 10 finisher. You don't do that if you dont have supreme driving ability and talent.

Not to mention in 2007 the cars were smaller, less complicated and easier to drive.

[HeelToeShift]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Not to mention in 2007 the cars were smaller, less complicated and easier to drive.

Yes, thanks for pointing out. Very valid as well. I am sure that the overall level of physicality (g forces) in the new cars trumps the old by a good margin as well.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

Many here are long term fans. I've been watching for 40 years.

Also four decades and counting of following F1. Likely four decades of watching F1 is less than several older forum members over here, but sufficient enough to have some personal impressions.

Back in the day, I used to root for Senna. But F1 didn't end on May 1, 1994 - only F1 as we knew it ended that day (I recall vividly the moment that helicopter footage showed live and direct Senna's blood: at that very moment realization kicked in that this was almost certainly the tragic end of my F1 hero). And I kept an open mind: time moved on and new top drivers would take the stage. Unlike Schumacher, Vettel and Hamilton, Verstappen reminded me most of Senna: rebel with a cause. But it's useless to claim that Verstappen would be the new Senna. No, Senna was Senna and Verstappen is Verstappen. Verstappen doesn't need to be a Senna. No, Verstappen only needs to be himself. And that's what he's doing.

1992 - Comas (00:30: Senna running to him to switch off the master switch - preventing a disaster):

1994 - Senna (10:20: Comas racing towards him - to no avail):

[Killed by Death]

I think I started this whole VER / Senna conversation. I never meant to compare the two. I simply meant watching VER gives me the same feeling I had long ago watching Senna. We are watching something special. At the very least I know I am.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I simply meant watching VER gives me the same feeling I had long ago watching Senna.

I first got that feeling at brazil 2016, with Max driving those different lines in the rain, overtaking people like Rosberg on the outside (which is the motorsport equivalent of a nutmeg ), catching crazy drifts etc.
Senna of course was also a master of the rain.
Max already had a win and a few podiums that year, but Brazil was just crazy to watch.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Killed by Death

I think I started this whole VER / Senna conversation. I never meant to compare the two. I simply meant watching VER gives me the same feeling I had long ago watching Senna. We are watching something special. At the very least I know I am.

Same here. You got ordinary, extraordinary and exceptional F1 drivers: Senna and Verstappen are exceptional, a league of their own bossing their generations in a peculiar dominant way, with a riveting driving style - something to look out for, no clinical snoozefest.

For example, Verstappen's sheer dominance was instrumental for the 2023 WDC and WCC titles: even when you take his team mate Perez out of the equation (imagine DNFs for all Sprint and races: 0 points), it is factually accurate to claim that the WDC and WCC title would still be awarded to Verstappen and to team Red Bull Racing (the 'one-man band' Verstappen gathered 575 points - team Mercedes (Hamilton + Russell) collected 409 points - team Ferrari (Leclerc + Sainz) collected 406 points). Can one honestly say that Perez was instrumental for any of the 19 race wins or 4 Sprint wins of Verstappen in 2023 ? Did Perez receive a RBR team order to invert track positions to ensure Verstappen winning a 2023 Sprint (4 out of 6) or 2023 race (19 out of 22) or to abort a fastest lap attempt to ensure Verstappen keeping a fastest lap point ?

And alike so many things in life, personally I always keep an open mind for new talents blossoming (regardless their nationality, race, color, gender, etc.), possibly outperforming the current king or queen of town or established concepts. For example, imagine that, say, current F2 driver Kimi Antonelli (Italy) or maybe some other super talent currently still competing in lower kart series, becomes real competition for Verstappen in the future or manages to squeeze the maximum out of the total package put at his disposal: I highly doubt that I'd consider it a sacrilege to point out that the days of Verstappen's reign are threatened or even numbered. Time moves on. It appears that some struggle with the reality that another driver can upset the established order, beating their driver they rooted for so ardently.

[Sneaky Pete]

This post from Reddit saves me the trouble.

"The way people talk in this subreddit you would think Hamilton was testing McLaren f1 cars every week for the 10 odd years before 2007 since he first spoke to Ron Dennis as a child.
The fact is that he had his first real test here in September 2006 after winning the GP2 title(The test 2 years previously was for winning a young drivers award or something, BDRC or McLaren award, I forget)
Hamilton then did a normal amount of testing with De La Rosa in the 2006 spec car in winter testing(Alonso did one test in late 2006 in the 2006 spec McLaren car after Renault gave permission) but once 2007 arrived, Alonso tested the 2007 spec car first and did more overall testing than Hamilton in pre season testing as well as testing throughout the year.
Every single time people in here bring up Hamilton testing before his debut, they act like he did a million more testing days and laps than everybody else. Its simply not true"

On his second run at that Silverstone test he was already faster than their test driver PDeLaR.

And on McLaren favouring Hamilton...where do you guys get this nonsense.
McLaren were paying 2 time world champion big money to drive for them, why on earth would they favour the rookie driver.

No driver in recent F1 history had a such a successful rookie year and not in terms of points scored but in terms of who he was driving against.

Trying to rewrite history to knock one of the best drivers in F1 shows a remarkable lack of understanding of F1 or just blind Verstappen fandom.