[m2ss]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

Here is a nice youtube to see differences between a sporty car and more track orientated car.

You would think that a track orientated GT4 would have outperformed by more than 3/4 of a second over a larger/heavier "sporty car".

All that youtube did was show me how truly impressive the M4 is for what it is. A more comfortable/practical street orientated sporty car with comparable GT4 track performance.

[zero21]

Originally Posted by m2ss

You would think that a track orientated GT4 would have outperformed by more than 3/4 of a second over a larger/heavier "sporty car".

All that youtube did was show me how truly impressive the M4 is for what it is. A more comfortable/practical street orientated sporty car with comparable GT4 track performance.

Precisely. It's like people hate admitting how capable these cars are, and even worse, that they're actually some of the only cars made that can do both roles (road and track) extremely well.

Yes, you'll burn through brake pads and tires. But you'd spend a lot more in the first place on a GT anything Porsche. And the consumables on a Porsche are in another league so that's a shite argument about heaviness and issues on track.

Edit: you simply cannot get reliable performance and decent luxury/build quality/NVH in any car close to the price of the M2 or entry level M3 and M4.

[Carefree]

Originally Posted by nachob

Yes, you are correct. Let me clarify a few points.

1. They lost tons of old school "ultimate driving machine" generation fans. I grudgingly bought a Cayman and the 718 forum is full of ex-bmw guys that have left.

2. The majority of that increase is in trucks with a BMW badge not sports cars. Go drive to a BMW dealer and see if you can count 10 cars on the lot

3. The 1M and M2 were a hit, a brilliant success because they went back to lighter, smaller, simpler cars than the M3/M4 so they WERE selling, but the issue is that now they are making the M2, the same size and weight as the M4 and probably the same weight as the previous M5. The V10 2010 M5 was porker at 4000 lbs with a V10 and 4 seats. This is one 5,10 200 lbs dude away from that with two doors and 4 less cylinders.

So yes, they are losing fans for these types of cars, even if replacing with super fast trucks.

Losing fans is your opinion. Everybody has one.

[Ghostrider.1127]

Seeems stay on topic is the biggest issue in this forum

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider.1127

Seeems stay on topic is the biggest issue in this forum

First time on the internet?

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by m2ss

First time on the internet?

Actually i experienced the same in : BMW Z4 , 3,4,5,6,7,8 forums ; but just when a new model come

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

The cost and handling of the GR86 on track is a dream. This is what weight does!

They are OK, but not very fast. My son has had 3 of the original model over the years including one that he supercharged, but was always fragile.

Brake overheating is a big problem that can be solved with an expensive AP Racing upgrade (one of his friends has done this), but my son could never stop the coil pack failures due to overheating whether using OEM or aftermarket coil packs. He did strip the interior to bare metal and just the drivers seat together with 245 wide tyres on the car that he had last year, but still found the car too limited in power overall.

[adc]

Originally Posted by zero21

Precisely. It's like people hate admitting how capable these cars are, and even worse, that they're actually some of the only cars made that can do both roles (road and track) extremely well.

Yes, you'll burn through brake pads and tires. But you'd spend a lot more in the first place on a GT anything Porsche. And the consumables on a Porsche are in another league so that's a shite argument about heaviness and issues on track.

Edit: you simply cannot get reliable performance and decent luxury/build quality/NVH in any car close to the price of the M2 or entry level M3 and M4.

What you don’t understand is that these laptimes are exercises of running just a few laps. Typically one or two for warmup, one or two hero laps (depending on tires), and one cooldown lap.

All the track tests are run like that: Car and Driver Lightning Lap, Sport Auto NRing super test, etc.

In the world of track events, this isn’t the real thing. In a 30 minute session, the M car would be left for dead.

Anyhow, I had this chat with the folks at my mechanics shop, a very reputable local outfit who also race in AER and WRL, domain expertise is centered on BMW but they also do Porsche, Vettes and the occasional McLaren. Their conclusion was that on BMWs, there is a host of secondary parts which break down with track usage: things like wheel bearings, all manners of bushings, etc. Automatic cars may need a little extra help with cooling when tuned. All this in addition to the usual accelerated brake and tire wear. By contrast on Porsches (their example used was a Cayman GT4), many of these parts are of higher spec and last longer. In addition to less wear on tires and brakes.

Cliff notes. They thought that the cost of tracking a GT4 are similar over time with the cost of tracking an M car (F8x). Which leaves the entry price higher on Porsches - then again, they do keep their values better, even in normal market situations. So the relevant questions are, how much initial sunken cost are you willing to bear, how much risk exposure are you comfortable with (accident in a GT car kills resale), and how much discomfort are you willing to endure (having to swap wheels, pads in and out on BMWs, and more frequently).

Edit: so how is this relevant to the M2? Some initial data isn’t encouraging (weight), I’m sure the laptimes will be surprisingly quick, but let’s see what happens when owners start to actually track them. My interest would be to turn one into a track and weekend car, perhaps removing the rear seats, half cage, incipient aero, etc. Hopefully there will be enough data to see how well the other parts last.

[myaghi]

I am a little bit confused about all this people complaing about the weight of the G87 compared to F87.
F87 Competition real weight was about 1650kg, so was not a lightweight car either and significant smaller. It was on the same weight with F82 from that time...but then it was not a problem.

[AndreM2]

Originally Posted by aerobod

They are OK, but not very fast. My son has had 3 of the original model over the years including one that he supercharged, but was always fragile.

Brake overheating is a big problem that can be solved with an expensive AP Racing upgrade (one of his friends has done this), but my son could never stop the coil pack failures due to overheating whether using OEM or aftermarket coil packs. He did strip the interior to bare metal and just the drivers seat together with 245 wide tyres on the car that he had last year, but still found the car too limited in power overall.

The new GR86 with 2.4 engine and 235hp is a lot better. I use both on track the gr86 and my m2c.

Yes the m2c is much faster on the straights but the braking and cornering speed is in favour of the gr86.

It is all you want from a car. The GR86 is very cheap to run and gives a lots of fun.

Should i put 1700 kg on track and trade in my m2c?

[donm527]

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by AndreM2

The new GR86 with 2.4 engine and 235hp is a lot better. I use both on track the gr86 and my m2c.

Yes the m2c is much faster on the straights but the braking and cornering speed is in favour of the gr86.

It is all you want from a car. The GR86 is very cheap to run and gives a lots of fun.

Should i put 1700 kg on track and trade in my m2c?

GR86 still has inadequate stock brakes even with aftermarket pads, though, more so likely now with the extra power. Not sure if they have fixed the coil problem and consequent misfires and limp mode (my son's friend is keeping an eye on it with his 2022 model). Plenty of M2/M3/M4s in our track day club that match or beat FT86/GR86s for braking and cornering speeds, when all vehicles have similar tyres and basic track prep.

I probably won't track the M2 very often, as my 545kg Caterham is much easier on the consumables and makes the GR86 look quite porky and slow - everything is relative.

Just as a cost comparison including fuel, track day fee and all consumables, we did some calculations last year in the spririt of using the GT3RS with carbon ceramic brakes, centrelock wheels and slicks that one of our fellow club members runs as a high-end benchmark, the costs per lap (CAD$) for the club season mainly at Rocky Mountain Motorsport and Rad Torque Raceway were:

GT3RS - $37
C5 Corvette Z06 (~450bhp with driveline upgrades and R-comp tyres) - $15
FT86 with big brake kit, R-comps and wing - $10
Caterham R400 with R-comps - $6

I would expect the M2 will come in close to the Corvette cost per lap, as club members with M2, M3 and M4s typically have similar tyre and brake life to the Corvette drivers.

[AndreM2]

Caterhams are awesome fun cars.

I have no problems with the gr86 brakes yet. Have race pads and race fluid. But i mostly drive 20 min sessions and then let everything cool down. The m2c front calipers are green and the dust caps have been melted also in 20 min sessions with pfc race pads and race fluid. My M2 needs new brakes for sure.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by m2ss

Correct me if I'm wrong but when the F87 came out was there this much controversy/polarization?

nope. the m2c review thread was only 15 pages and generally all positive. the only thing people were arguing about was the s55 exhaust note lol.

when the TH m2c review came out people thought they were being paid off to be extra gushy about it. "all youtube journalists are nice in reviews so they can get more cars from the manufacturer" is what one poster said.

there also weren't threads about "are you cancelling your order, with many replying yes"

quite the contrast here.

[CodeSlinger]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

nope. the m2c review thread was only 15 pages and generally all positive. the only thing people were arguing about was the s55 exhaust note lol.

when the TH m2c review came out people thought they were being paid off to be extra gushy about it. "all youtube journalists are nice in reviews so they can get more cars from the manufacturer" is what one poster said.

quite the contrast here.

Well the OG m2 review thread would be more relevant, everyone knew what the weight/design/general performance of the m2 was at that point, the comp was primarily a LCI + engine bump. TBH I'm too lazy to find it and check myself though lol

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by CodeSlinger

Well the OG m2 review thread would be more relevant, everyone knew what the weight/design/general performance of the m2 was at that point, the comp was primarily a LCI + engine bump. TBH I'm too lazy to find it and check myself though lol

yeah i looked and didn't find anything. that car was released in 2015 though and youtube car reviews weren't really a thing.

[Ghostrider.1127]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

when the TH m2c review came out people thought they were being paid off to be extra gushy about it. "all youtube journalists are nice in reviews so they can get more cars from the manufacturer"

Also with a G87 actually...

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

quite the contrast here.

Being a 1M owner I recall how positive everyone was when the OG came out and even more so when the comp and CS appeared.

Very few if any complaints about the style but when it came to sound between OG and Comp it got downright ugly...

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by donm527

Topher Review Video

sounds kind of mixed.

- respects what it can do
- rides very well, good GT car
- thinks it will be very quick on track
- not a drivers car like previous Ms, kind of does everything for you
- says his money would go somewhere else.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

sounds kind of mixed.

- respects what it can do
- rides very well, good GT car
- thinks it will be very quick on track
- not a drivers car like previous Ms, kind of does everything for you
- says his money would go somewhere else.

Great summary. He forgot to lug the engine in 2nd and 4th though

[donm527]

Honestly, it's not much different when TH said, "If you haven't driven an M2 before" statement and others reviewer have tried to lightly make similar notes in their reviews. It's an M2. Sounds like a very fun a very fast and capable M car. It should be a better performing car then the previous M2. Just doesn't give the same vibe they got driving the previous one. They compare it more to an M4 than an M2 when they drive it. It's a more refine and capable car than the previous. Some reviewers loved it. Some wished for some of the previous M2's "spicyness" to have carried over to the new car.

Originally Posted by Humdizzle

sounds kind of mixed.

- respects what it can do
- rides very well, good GT car
- thinks it will be very quick on track
- not a drivers car like previous Ms, kind of does everything for you
- says his money would go somewhere else.

[F87inJAX]

Originally Posted by donm527

Honestly, it's not much different when TH said, "If you haven't driven an M2 before" statement and others reviewer have tried to lightly make similar notes in their reviews. It's an M2. Sounds like a very fun and capable M car. Just doesn't give the same vibe they got driving the previous one. They compare it more to an M4 than an M2 when they drive it. It's a more refine and capable car than the previous. Some reviewers loved it. Some wished for some of the previous M2's "spicyness" to have carried over to the new car.

After test driving it this morning, and having more time to reflect since my drive, I’d have to agree with a lot of that assessment. It definitely does feel like it now has a fair amount of GT car in its DNA. I didn’t get to drive it enough to say for sure whether it’s less of a driver’s car or not. They’ve improved a lot of things. It feels solid, and like a modern BMW. The shift action feels better. The ride is more forgiving when you want it to be. It’s more comfortable. As far as how much may have been lost in the process, I can’t say. It is definitely a very different car. It’s a little more serious car than it’s predecessor.

I will say that as we were leaving the dealership, my wife asked me if I liked it more than my F87. All I could say is I didn’t like it less. I couldn’t say for certain I liked it more. I suppose I’m lucky that it’s going to be a while before I ever get an allocation. I’m going to have to do a lot of thinking and probably another longer test drive before I know for sure whether I want to trade in the F87 for the G87.