[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I didn't think the Bolt was that far off in design; I found it attractive enough. I looked at the original Bolt when I was considering an EV for my 170-mile daily round trip. The interior was ugly (materials mostly) and the drivers seat was not comfortable at all. I think LG and GM Korea had too much design influence; one thing GM does is make great seats. Those two things kept me from buying one, on top of the real winter range it would have. It left no room for extracurricular driving if I needed it.

But again, it was not expensive and had 200+ mile EPA rating. Maybe the battery fire recall killed it. But like in M5Rick's EV thread, real EV'ers insist battery fires are a non-issue. To your point, the Renault is making headway in normal-looking design. Maybe there is hope...

Agreed, it's hard to say that this is a weird looking vehicle. It looks like any modest hatchback.

I dunno why it failed. Maybe the people who want a Chevy and an EV and mutually exclusive groups. Maybe people thought buying a Tesla was more boogie. Maybe people thought the EPA range was too low? Nissan tried the inexpensive EV thing with the Lead, as did Mitsubishi with the iMiev and they both failed. Fiat 500e has flopped even though you can lease them for free. Perhaps there's more of a market for this in Europe than the US, but nobody has cracked the cheap EV code except Tesla.

[Alfisti]

The single issue stopping an EV take over is charging. The range is fine, the cost/benefit will make more sense with scale but the charging, the charging is a monumental issue that is not going to be solved for decades, if at all.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by kyriian

Including SUVs and all other M-lite cars, I don't know of lapping days you go to... but not once have I seen a X5M, or only once have I seen a X3M tearing up a track day around here, the latter of which did about 3 laps before it pooped its coolant and had to be towed.

Might I also add, the i4 M50 is the best selling M model last year, sure its an M model, but not only is it an EV, but also it is a M-lite car
Source:here



No one ever said EV does not have its own challenges, range anxiety in the winter is real, and there is no argument that place to charge for a lot of people is a problem and will remain a problem for decades if not forever.

I looked hard for a used X3 and X5 PHEV for the wife for the past month or 2 to replace our F15 X5 before committing to our Polestar , But

- Sky high used car prices (up here, the PHEV version is easily 20k more than the ICE versions)
- High used car (and new car) rates, it feels like no one wants to move their inventory at all here.
- Lack of supply (that's more on Lexus, which said unless I pay an admin fee of 10k up front, I am not getting a RX450h+ until 2026)
- Of course, I still have to pay for gas as well on top of all that

Use case here is the key word here, the Renault 5 EV is for Europe use, and its customer has very very different needs than you.

If your use case justifies an ICE as the best way to spend your dough, then go for it, I ain't stopping you neither should anyone. Its why a variety of cars exist catering to even the most obscure needs.
Why does an EV, not even sold in your continent, bother you so much anyway...

Bother me??? I could care less about it as wasn't going to give it another thought. That's certainly one of the most bizarre posts ever.

Maybe you could benefit from this.
https://www.brightside.com/alt-homep...248d27a39b7b86

[DrFerry]

Duffy’s first act was signing a memorandum directing staff to start the process of resetting Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards, which will ultimately lower the price of a car for American consumers and eliminate the electric vehicle mandate.
https://highways.dot.gov/newsroom/se...mediate-action

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Ugly Kar

Bother me??? I could care less about it as wasn't going to give it another thought. That's certainly one of the most bizarre posts ever.

Maybe you could benefit from this.
https://www.brightside.com/alt-homep...248d27a39b7b86

I don't think kyriian's post was even remotely meeting criteria for "one of the most bizarre posts ever". His was balanced and reasonable.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I have a Ice commuter - an EV would add nothing for me besides a higher cost and zero serviceability and longevity

EV does bring things to the table for a commuter. A few things that come to my mind at the moment:
no need to stop at the gas station because you fuel up at home or your destination. No more needing to stop for gas when you're already late for a meeting, because you charged up while you were sleeping. Proactive refueling vs reactive.

Zero serviceability isn't a detractor for EV's, the service needs are basically non-existent. Brakes go substantially longer because of regen. No oil changes, etc. Just rotate the tires and check fluids. Substantially less work here, or time to go to a shop if you're not doing your own maintenance.

Basically instant heating/cooling. No need to wait for an engine to come up to temp.

No issues with frequent short trips. ICE cars don't like the 1 mile trips that we frequently take living in a suburban area. EV doesn't care.

One pedal driving really does make driving in stop and go traffic a lot less of a pain.

Higher cost, I'd argue not, as long as you are open minded about the situation. EV's are currently selling at about the same price as their ICE counterparts. That said, keeping what you already have is always cheaper. So if your ICE commuter doesn't need to be replaced, don't replace it.


I still occasionally commute in one of our ICE vehicles and have a clear vision of the pros/cons of each system. EV is definitely a more convenient commuter. It comes with limits, but they're very easy to manage.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The Bolt was selling at an MSRP under $30K and was eligible for the max $7,500 tax rebate. The Model 3 started $10K north of that. I think you have made the point clear, the inexpensive smallish EV, even with 200+ mile range is still not beating ICEV in sales. I firmly believe it is the charging speed issue. People are used to recharging their ICEV in 5 minutes and recovering 350 to 400 miles of range. Leaving with a full battery every morning is nice to say, but is it that important? I really don't think it is to most people. It's not important because those people know they can refill their tank in 5 minutes nearly anywhere they are.

Honestly, I dunno man. On paper, this should have sold like crazy. It was cheap, decent looking, spacious enough, from a brand that you could get serviced wherever... It should have sold.

I don't think charging speed is the issue. Maybe it's that people think that 200 miles isn't enough?

Honestly, I think what it boils down to is that economy buyers for new cars basically don't exist anymore, and that EV buyers want inexpensive, but not cheap. They are Buick buyers for lack of a better term. They want it to be kinda upscale, but not really, and they want it at an affordable ish price.

Honestly, I have no idea. On paper, Bolt should have been a winner.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Honestly, I dunno man. On paper, this should have sold like crazy. It was cheap, decent looking, spacious enough, from a brand that you could get serviced wherever... It should have sold.

I don't think charging speed is the issue. Maybe it's that people think that 200 miles isn't enough?

Honestly, I think what it boils down to is that economy buyers for new cars basically don't exist anymore, and that EV buyers want inexpensive, but not cheap. They are Buick buyers for lack of a better term. They want it to be kinda upscale, but not really, and they want it at an affordable ish price.

Honestly, I have no idea. On paper, Bolt should have been a winner.

Isn't the average new car almost $50k now?

Also wouldn't the more price conscious buyer who doesn't care about 0-60 times or gadgets and gizmos also probably also be concerned with reliability? IMO the default for any of these buyers is Toyota or Honda and to some extent the other Japanese brands. I don't think a Chevy is at the top of most of these peoples list... let alone an EV which is new fancy stuff.

Are other Chevy none EV cars popular? Do they make any? I can't say I see too many malibus around.

That my theory, which was scientifically pulled from my butt.

[DocL]

I'm not an EV person, but my father just got a 2024 CPO Nissian ARIYA with 4,700 miles. It had an original sticker of $63k, and he paid $32k out the door including taxes and fees. I drove it home for him as he's older and doesn't take the highway. I am very impressed with it and it's loaded with every option and has the dual motor. It's fast enough for his needs for around town driving, mostly 10mi or less.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

Isn't the average new car almost $50k now?

Also wouldn't the more price conscious buyer who doesn't care about 0-60 times or gadgets and gizmos also probably also be concerned with reliability? IMO the default for any of these buyers is Toyota or Honda and to some extent the other Japanese brands. I don't think a Chevy is at the top of most of these peoples list... let alone an EV which is new fancy stuff.

Are other Chevy none EV cars popular? Do they make any? I can't say I see too many malibus around.

That my theory, which was scientifically pulled from my butt.

As it turns out, Chevy only offers the Malibu for an ICE car. It's probably only a rental car honestly.

That said, they have equinox EV now for 34k, 300 miles of range, and an SUV from factor. That's probably the "holy Grail" for an affordable EV, other than being a bit pricey once you add AWD (like 40k, which gets you a Tesla).

It'll be interesting to see how equinox EV does. I'm sure it's gonna get discounts to bring the price down. But when you look at like, Blazer EV or Silverado EV, it's tough to see those selling at that much higher price points.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Honestly, I dunno man. On paper, this should have sold like crazy. It was cheap, decent looking, spacious enough, from a brand that you could get serviced wherever... It should have sold.

I don't think charging speed is the issue. Maybe it's that people think that 200 miles isn't enough?

Honestly, I have no idea. On paper, Bolt should have been a winner.

Our first EV commuter car was a Nissan Leaf. Bolt was a consideration, but I stayed away from it because of the mountain of battery issues. Recalls telling you not to park it in garages, etc... I went with the Leaf because it was a proven solution. Very few issues with the battery except for loss of capacity in hotter climates because of the air cooled battery vs water cooled.

We ditched the leaf at the end of the lease and picked up an Ioniq5. I despised having FWD with an electric car, too much wheel spin and related TC system interference. We also felt that the Leaf was just a tad small for our family of 4, the Ioniq is much more spacious. It also looks the part, love the styling of it. It's like a hot hatch, just scaled up 30% or so. It can handle more mileage than the leaf, but that doesn't really matter to me...

The range anxiety stuff is really only for people who are limited in places to charge. I can charge at work for free, or at home. Either you just keep it topped off every day, or you know your needs and charge it as needed. I charge twice a week while I'm at work. If we have a day where we need more mileage, we just make sure it's topped up. It's just like filling up the tank the day before you go on a road trip, just requires a minor amount of forethought. I also don't use our EV for anything but regional commuting. I do not take it outside of its range, I have ICE for that purpose.

[Sedoy]

Your math definitely checks out, but I think people interested in the Model 3 aren’t really buying it for the gas savings. The Model 3 is a RWD platform with very impressive handling, great acceleration (even the cheapest RWD model does a 1/4-mile in 13.2 seconds) and has a set of smart features unique to Tesla like autopilot, sentry mode, over-the-air updates, dog mode, and etc. There’s a reason people keep buying overpriced iPhones, even though top-tier Android phones can do similar things for much less.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Have you guys gotta ruin every thread that even mentions an EV? Let it go already.

lol...it sure does trigger people around here


maybe it is because I'm lucky enough, or financially irresponsible enough to have multiple vehicles. but the best daily I've ever owned does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and is currently charging in my garage right now for penies on the dollar compared to the $5 gal gas around here...never waste time at a gas station or oil change shop either.....

I lmao when I read the ignorance on here when it comes to the devil aka EV's

[Socal_R8]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

I paid $425 to install my $425 Tesla charger....Don't know where people come up with the made up numbers like $3500, but everything you read on the internet or see on youtube isn't true....

Gas is always around $5.00+ per gallon around here and many people have solar these days....Only use charging stations on occasional road trip, hardly a PITA and usually it is done charging by the time you get done buying a coffee or some fast food...

They may not be for everyone, but they certainly fit the bill for many people.

I can vouch for mine that has 50,000 flawless maintenance free miles on her

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just quick and dirty math...

Camry LE with heated seats is $29,310. Cheapest Tesla Model 3 with tax incentives is $34,990, $5,680 more. At $3.29/gal. and using the EPA average of 51 MPG for the Camry, that's 88,000 miles before the Model 3 hits the payback point. At 15,000 miles a year, that's 6 years before any savings are realized. That's a hard sell for a parent with two kids renting a house where they are not going to drop $3,500 to get a L2 EVSE installed so they can have the magic of home refueling. Add in the home charger and the miles to payback are 140,000 and 9 years breakeven. Add the PITA to charge an EV using the public network and people dont see the advantage of adopting. That's why Americans are not buying EV in quantities to flip the market to EV.

you also forget resale value of a tesla model 3 at high mileage vs a camry... people actively search for used camrys and there is a strong market for long term... used model 3 market is 0 and you get annihilated on trade because they change them every 5 second and get pricing adjustments

[Alfisti]

Camry and Model 3 are two different segments, the 3 is the size of a Corolla, the Camry is far larger.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Sedoy

Your math definitely checks out, but I think people interested in the Model 3 aren’t really buying it for the gas savings. The Model 3 is a RWD platform with very impressive handling, great acceleration (even the cheapest RWD model does a 1/4-mile in 13.2 seconds) and has a set of smart features unique to Tesla like autopilot, sentry mode, over-the-air updates, dog mode, and etc. There’s a reason people keep buying overpriced iPhones, even though top-tier Android phones can do similar things for much less.

People buy iPhones because they get stuck in an ecosystem. A lot of them bought into the "this is the boogie one" that likely applies to Teslas too, but then people keep buying iPhones because that's what they're used to, and at some level they think they're better because they paid more for their phone.

Mark my words, they will figure out a way to lease people iPhones for a year and offer it as a "always have the new phone" and (stupid) people will eat that shart up. You will own nothing and you will like it.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Socal_R8

lol...it sure does trigger people around here


maybe it is because I'm lucky enough, or financially irresponsible enough to have multiple vehicles. but the best daily I've ever owned does 0-60 in 3.1 seconds and is currently charging in my garage right now for penies on the dollar compared to the $5 gal gas around here...never waste time at a gas station or oil change shop either.....

I lmao when I read the ignorance on here when it comes to the devil aka EV's

Your fuel costs are because of your government and nothing more. Gas is 2.86 a gallon here, 3.24 for premium. Prices have been a little higher than normal lately too.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Comparing a Model 3 to a Corolla makes the math for the Tesla even worse.

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

TBH I am not sure what a fair comparison is. And I mean unbiased and fair. A Corolla is about the same size but lacks the power of the Model 3, but the Model 3 does not have the luxury of a 3 series or C class which are both a touch bigger than the Tesla anyways.

Trying to think of a powerful small sedan with a basic interior. Hmmmmm.

You would need to define luxury in this case. If by luxury you just mean physical stuff, like trims, buttons, panels etc then yes. If by luxury you mean the quality of the materials that are there and actual features (heated seats, cooled, cameras etc) then I think the Model 3 is on par with a 3 series or C class easily. Especially the new Model 3.

[Alfisti]

Maybe the Acura's based on the Civic platform?

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You are over-thinking this. I simply am comparing Tesla's most popular selling sedan to Toyota's most popular sedan.

And the point is why? Why would you compare those two vehicles?

You may not like the interior (I don't either), but the reality is the Tesla is a direct competitor to a 3 series, which comes in at a drastic price difference from a Corolla. Your numbers change drastically when you actually compare the cars with their competitors.

You want to compare an EV to a corolla, compare a nissan leaf.

You want a pretty direct comparison, compare the i4 gran coupe to a 430i gran coupe. 52800 vs 49650.

Also, price of gas vs price of electricity varies drastically by location. Here, I have some of the most expensive gas in the country, and some of the cheapest electricity (that's 95% renewable to boot).



Everyone's calculations are different and you really can't generalize across the entire country.