[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, I think they should be part of the mix because they do make sense in certain use cases. But they shouldn't come with all the societial baggage of non-private funding of the infrastructure, grid impact (now competing with AI for electricity), and legislation. It's been 20 years of artifical market creation to jumpstart EV (that's funny in this context), but it's time for them to stand alone and compete on a level playing field. (queue the oil subsidies chat...).

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

Even playing field would be very reasonable.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by W///

Totally get it, maybe EV's aren't for you and that's OK. I just think they make better DD's than any ICE for my case, but I know it's pretty specific. For me it doesn't have that much to do with $ ROI to be honest.

Btw, can't go wrong with an X5 M50. They're fantastic cars.

Don't get me wrong, if there was a PHEV that had the right mix of performance and cost, I would be interested. I just see it as a financial decision, not anything more. There's nothing about an EV that's any better than my X5, outside of the charging vs gas thing, but getting gas once every 3-4 weeks isn't a big deal to me, and until there is a price parity... It just doesn't make sense.

The only thing I see on the horizon that would MAYBE do it for me is Ramcharger, but the pricing on that isn't announced yet. If they hit the same pricing as the Hurricane Ram, it'll be a hit. If not, it'll be too expensive and not have an ROI.

The PHEV market is where any incentives should be going. Forget bull EVs, they're a niche use case. PHEVs work for the mass market, and enable a lot more drivers to go near zero emissions without the downsides of a full EV.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't want to go down a political rabbit hole, but man, I'd really like for both EV and petrol to lose the majority of their government subsidies. But you can't get rid of just EV's funding and claim "even playing field".

There are not really large federal subsidies for the oil industry. They get the same write offs as any other company. Because of that, people have now created the concept of "indirect subsidies" where they can assign an arbitrary value to make it looks like they get so much in subsidies.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I was hoping the Scout Terra Harvester was going to be a mid-sized pickup, but the dimensions are near full size. I'm signed up for one, we'll see how big it is when comes out in 2028. Maybe Farley's Ford will make a series-hybrid Bronco Pickup. That'd trigger a take-my-money event for me.

Truck sizing is a tough nut to crack.

The midsize trucks are too small. The fullsize trucks often feel too big. You can't make the midsize trucks bigger or fullsize trucks smaller because then they're too close in size. The fullsize trucks have huge economies of scale, so they usually hit price points uncomfortably close to the midsize trucks.

The fullsize trucks are basically family vehicles, so you can't really make them any smaller. Nissan and Toyota tried that, Titan never took off and Tundra is now big AF. Maybe a next gen Frontier will be able to grow to be in that middle ground of midsize and full size? Who knows.

Ford doesn't seem to have a strategy anymore. Like Mike Tyson says "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Ford has done that a few times and seems to be spiralling into "try everything". They're wasting time with project T3, the ground up EV truck nobody wants. They're going to make EREV versions of everything. They're adding PHEV to everything. They're surprised people aren't buying Lightning at $60-90k that looks like a 2015 truck.

[Alfisti]

I do think the traditional manufacturers (I.e not Tesla or Rivian for eg) have made a HUGE error in going all tech bro with their EV line up. Hopeless UI, no hard buttons, fiddly electronics, self driving this and that, tech for the sake of tech etc etc. They've told themselves their market is Tesla buyers, it's mostly not, it's people who want a 3 series that doesn't drink gas so just keep everything the same and replace the engine. No idea why so many EV need to be such utter fucking nightmares to use from a UI perspective.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

There are not really large federal subsidies for the oil industry. They get the same write offs as any other company. Because of that, people have now created the concept of "indirect subsidies" where they can assign an arbitrary value to make it looks like they get so much in subsidies.

Write offs, subsidies, I don't care what they are, they cost me money and skew the playing field.

The fossil fuel industry is insanely lucrative. They don't need our taxpayer dollars, continuously contributing to our deficit.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Truck sizing is a tough nut to crack.

The midsize trucks are too small. The fullsize trucks often feel too big. You can't make the midsize trucks bigger or fullsize trucks smaller because then they're too close in size. The fullsize trucks have huge economies of scale, so they usually hit price points uncomfortably close to the midsize trucks.

The fullsize trucks are basically family vehicles, so you can't really make them any smaller. Nissan and Toyota tried that, Titan never took off and Tundra is now big AF. Maybe a next gen Frontier will be able to grow to be in that middle ground of midsize and full size? Who knows.

Ford doesn't seem to have a strategy anymore. Like Mike Tyson says "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Ford has done that a few times and seems to be spiralling into "try everything". They're wasting time with project T3, the ground up EV truck nobody wants. They're going to make EREV versions of everything. They're adding PHEV to everything. They're surprised people aren't buying Lightning at $60-90k that looks like a 2015 truck.

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've had a pickup in my fleet for nearly the full 45 years I've had a driver's license because need a pickup truck. I don't think the "vast majority" are emotional support vehicles anymore than an ///M car is. Not sure why a lot of people dislike the people who own and use pickups, but whatever.

I don't dislike anyone who drives a pickup. That would be a weird thing to dislike someone for.

I dislike the fact that we've traded much more efficient vehicles such as wagons out for pickup trucks as family vehicles. I'm sure it's just the demographic of the people I live around and have surrounding my life, but only a select few people who own trucks actually use them as trucks enough to justify owning one and driving one around on a daily basis. They get used for mulch once a year, and the occasional 2x for a house project (that they can't secure in their tiny ass bed).

Anecdotally, a few years ago I watched a guy struggle to load and secure a bunch of 2x's in his clearly family hauler truck. He was working on it when I pulled into the lumber yard. I popped the hatch on our suv, slid them in, and drove away while he was still sitting there trying to secure the load.

I have also met more than one construction worker who drove minivans for work because they're cheaper and way more convenient for hauling construction equipment and materials. I work on the fringes of the construction trade, and my company relies on work vans for our equipment - way more useful, keeps our stuff dry and safer from theft.

I've been laughed at for spending too much money on my convertible when pulling into a construction site, yet the shiny bro-dozer on rubberband tires I parked next to likely cost close to 6 figures. It's a mentality. Not everyone is this way, but a lot of guys absolutely do use them as emotional support vehicles.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

People have uses for trucks. Need a pallet of sod? Truck makes it easy. New appliances? Yard waste? New TV? Trucks make almost everything a lot easier. But people also have families, so of course your truck is gonna be your family car too if you have a single car.

I bought a folding utility trailer, it works great for the stuff I use it for, but it's a hassle compared to just throwing stuff in the bed of the truck you're already driving.

I fully expect that I will replace my X5 with a truck. It's just so damn handy to have a bed and space for myself and my kids.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

I don't dislike anyone who drives a pickup. That would be a weird thing to dislike someone for.

I dislike the fact that we've traded much more efficient vehicles such as wagons out for pickup trucks as family vehicles. I'm sure it's just the demographic of the people I live around and have surrounding my life, but only a select few people who own trucks actually use them as trucks enough to justify owning one and driving one around on a daily basis. They get used for mulch once a year, and the occasional 2x for a house project (that they can't secure in their tiny ass bed).

Anecdotally, a few years ago I watched a guy struggle to load and secure a bunch of 2x's in his clearly family hauler truck. He was working on it when I pulled into the lumber yard. I popped the hatch on our suv, slid them in, and drove away while he was still sitting there trying to secure the load.

I have also met more than one construction worker who drove minivans for work because they're cheaper and way more convenient for hauling construction equipment and materials. I work on the fringes of the construction trade, and my company relies on work vans for our equipment - way more useful, keeps our stuff dry and safer from theft.

I've been laughed at for spending too much money on my convertible when pulling into a construction site, yet the shiny bro-dozer on rubberband tires I parked next to likely cost close to 6 figures. It's a mentality. Not everyone is this way, but a lot of guys absolutely do use them as emotional support vehicles.

I will say, from a partiality standpoint my Colorado was BY FAR the best truck I had. It was a little 4 door with a 5.3L V8 and I paid like $10k for it. I used it for EVERYTHING. I had scoops of diet and mulch dumped into the bed and didn't care that I was unloading it from the back with a shovel because it was cheap. When I needed to haul 16' boards for my deck (yeah, my deck was big, you know you're jealous :P) I could open the slider up and rest them on the tailgate and strap them down. It was cheap and so I was a lot less worried about it than I was with other trucks I've had. It was also a lowered sport truck and I could easily reach into the bed for stuff.

Prior to that I had a far nicer brand new f150 platinum. It was too expensive and too nice to use for really dirty jobs. Those 16' boards required my gf to sit on one side for a counter balance in the bed because Ford in their infinite wisdom made the rear window a little hole in the glass rear window. If I tried to bring it into the cab, it would have been resting on the glass of the rear window. When I wanted to reach stuff in the bed, I often had to jump on a tire, and I'm 6'2.

All that said, I still want another one. Our Expedition works great for this sort of stuff too, but with the car seats in the back it doesn't have as much storage space.

I had the same comments with the Corvettes though. Nobody ever said a damn thing to me about my truck that was 20k more money, lol.

[dfox]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

People have uses for trucks. Need a pallet of sod? Truck makes it easy. New appliances? Yard waste? New TV? Trucks make almost everything a lot easier. But people also have families, so of course your truck is gonna be your family car too if you have a single car.

I bought a folding utility trailer, it works great for the stuff I use it for, but it's a hassle compared to just throwing stuff in the bed of the truck you're already driving.

I fully expect that I will replace my X5 with a truck. It's just so damn handy to have a bed and space for myself and my kids.

Feel free to do whatever makes you happy. Great that we have choices. Doesn't change how I see them though.

I grab my neighbors utility trailer that's substantially larger than any pickup truck bed. And if my neighbor didn't already have one, they're dirt cheap to rent. Much more useful than any pickup. More tiedowns. Easier to load and unload because it's closer to the ground. No concern about damaging anything because it's just wood and steel. Used it to buy siding to reside our house, engineered wood flooring for the first floor of our house, fireplace, new range, new fridge, etc... and I don't need to drive an oversized pickup that's a pain in the ass to park in the city, where my work also takes me a lot.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by dfox

Or how about this... Maybe trucks should just go back to being work vehicles instead of family vehicles...

In reality, the vast majority of trucks on the road are emotional support vehicles.

theoretically, I agree and I am a fan of the US made pickup trucks overall (f150 etc)...

but even in terms of "carrying" stuff... unless you are consistently carrying heavy and maybe hazardous loads... i don't see what a pickup can do that a midsize SUV (with back seats folded) or even a minivan can't with its seats removed.. i've carried very large loads with my X3 including sod etc and there has never been an issue...

driving a large truck daily... you get bad fuel efficiency... a horrid body on frame ride on the street that wiggles all over and have to deal with parking and handling a car the size of an aircraft carrier... if I have to move that one item once or twice a year, its still easier and cheaper to rent a full size truck at lowes for $19 for the hour lol

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I've had a pickup in my fleet for nearly the full 45 years I've had a driver's license because need a pickup truck. I don't think the "vast majority" are emotional support vehicles anymore than an ///M car is. Not sure why a lot of people dislike the people who own and use pickups, but whatever.

i would make this arguement...

folks that buy "m" cars are likely more of an enthusiast than someone buying any truck and likely use their cars for their intended purpose "fun, fast driving" more so than the guy that drives to his office job every day in an f150... again, could be wrong but I live in the land of trucks and I see it every day

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dfox

Feel free to do whatever makes you happy. Great that we have choices. Doesn't change how I see them though.

I grab my neighbors utility trailer that's substantially larger than any pickup truck bed. And if my neighbor didn't already have one, they're dirt cheap to rent. Much more useful than any pickup. More tiedowns. Easier to load and unload because it's closer to the ground. No concern about damaging anything because it's just wood and steel. Used it to buy siding to reside our house, engineered wood flooring for the first floor of our house, fireplace, new range, new fridge, etc... and I don't need to drive an oversized pickup that's a pain in the ass to park in the city, where my work also takes me a lot.

I don't disagree. My utility trailer is 4x8, and I'd get a 5' bed. It's way more useful for bang it up stuff cuz it was $400 not $75000. That said, having a modest bed with you at all times is great too. If I'm at Costco and decide to buy something large they have there, I can do it without having to go home, unpack the trailer, hitch up, and come back. Those slur of the moment things is where a truck as a daily really shines. I just wish they would make sport trucks again so they're fun to drive too, not these giant fake offroad trucks they keep pushing.

It's also nice when you have a neighbor with a trailer you can use, lol. Renting one one is cheap but a pain in the butt. Especially if you're not buying whatever you need from the place you're renting it from. And man, I HATE driving an unloaded trailer.

Frankly, I wish I could get something like the avalanche or Escalade EXT. I really wish it was sporty and fast. I had high hopes for the EV Silverado RST, and they managed to totally meet none of them.

[dreamingat30fps]

So renting a truck for those couple of times you need it is fine... but renting an ICE car for those couple of times you need to go on cross country road trips... oooh heeeeellll nawww!!!

Truck hate and EV hate (or should I say dislike for certain vehicular platforms? Is that PC enough?) are just different sides of the same coin.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

So renting a truck for those couple of times you need it is fine... but renting an ICE car for those couple of times you need to go on cross country road trips... oooh heeeeellll nawww!!!

Truck hate and EV hate (or should I say dislike for certain vehicular platforms? Is that PC enough?) are just different sides of the same coin.

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. On the one hand, a truck is theost versatile vehicle you can own, that's why they're so popular. They can do ANYTHING. Family car, haul stuff in the bed, row, go fast, road trips, city trips, they don't all. On the other end, EVa are different where they do kinda one thing. Sure you could road trip them... If you're not in a hurry, but they're really good at commutes within their battery range. So in essence, they're total opposites.

That said, the argument that you don't need a truck cuz you can rent one and that you don't need anything other than an EV cuz you can rent a gas car are the same. It's also the argument for why you don't need a wife cuz you can rent a hooker, or anything that someone else thinks you shouldn't have,, it's a mentality of "I know what's best for you better than you do".

That said, I'd be willing to be that the people saying to rent a truck are the same people saying to rent an ICE for trips.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

I sort of agree, and sort of disagree. On the one hand, a truck is theost versatile vehicle you can own, that's why they're so popular. They can do ANYTHING. Family car, haul stuff in the bed, row, go fast, road trips, city trips, they don't all. On the other end, EVa are different where they do kinda one thing. Sure you could road trip them... If you're not in a hurry, but they're really good at commutes within their battery range. So in essence, they're total opposites.

That said, the argument that you don't need a truck cuz you can rent one and that you don't need anything other than an EV cuz you can rent a gas car are the same. It's also the argument for why you don't need a wife cuz you can rent a hooker, or anything that someone else thinks you shouldn't have,, it's a mentality of "I know what's best for you better than you do".

That said, I'd be willing to be that the people saying to rent a truck are the same people saying to rent an ICE for trips.

To be clear. I believe both extremes are stupid (as an ICE car owner, truck owner and EV owner). Buy whatever you want that fits your needs.

That being said I have definitely experienced hate from trucks while driving the Tesla. I have never experienced hate from EVs while driving the truck. Both sides just need to get over it.

[dreamingat30fps]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, I'd say there is a difference. There was no legislation to support the privately held national fleet of vehicles to eventually be converted to non-pickup trucks. There is a movement within the legislative process to eliminate the internal combustion engine as a source of power for automobiles. Eventually there will be no option to rent an ICEV for long trips.

You're doing it not me.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I live in a rural farming county. I'd say it is 70% pickup truck ownership here. What is the difference between driving an empty 5-seat sedan with an empty trunk to the office vs. an empty pickup truck with and empty bed? Some of you have this notion that because a pickup truck has a pickup bed on it, the bed needs to be full anytime the truck is driven. Sort of a stupid concept. And we call that an "emotional support vehicle" as some sort of off-handed insult? LOL.

the big difference to me personally would be the 5 seat sedan is likely more comfortable, faster, gets better gas mileage and likely handles better and is far easier to park... which imho is a solid trade off the little use bed space every once in a while... again, some will feel different... but day to day thats not what i see

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by ASAP

the big difference to me personally would be the 5 seat sedan is likely more comfortable, faster, gets better gas mileage and likely handles better and is far easier to park... which imho is a solid trade off the little use bed space every once in a while... again, some will feel different... but day to day thats not what i see

You haven't been in a newer truck I'm guessing. They're faster and more comfortable than most sedans. Gas mileage I'll give you in the cars that don't handle any better than the trucks, but not vs a sport sedan like an M550i. The trade off there is more reliable and more spacious. Easier to park? 50/50, they typically have better visibility so you can see what's going on better, and while yes, they are larger, you get used to just backing the truck up into a spot. I would argue places with slots that don't fit have too small of spots to begin with and I wouldn't want to go there even not in a truck. This coming from a suburbanite, not someone in the big empty rural areas (though I did love those giant parking lots). There are places with crap parking lots we just don't go to because their parking sucks.

I get it, trucks aren't for everyone..neither are EVe, or sports cars, or sedans... That freedom of choice is what makes America great. The hate for trucks is very much a us vs them political thing.eV hate likely too but for different reasons (taxpayers aren't paying for 10% or more of a new expensive truck for people. Plus Teslas are super ugly and offensive to look at because they're so hideous.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

You haven't been in a newer truck I'm guessing. They're faster and more comfortable than most sedans. Gas mileage I'll give you in the cars that don't handle any better than the trucks, but not vs a sport sedan like an M550i. The trade off there is more reliable and more spacious. Easier to park? 50/50, they typically have better visibility so you can see what's going on better, and while yes, they are larger, you get used to just backing the truck up into a spot. I would argue places with slots that don't fit have too small of spots to begin with and I wouldn't want to go there even not in a truck. This coming from a suburbanite, not someone in the big empty rural areas (though I did love those giant parking lots). There are places with crap parking lots we just don't go to because their parking sucks.

I get it, trucks aren't for everyone..neither are EVe, or sports cars, or sedans... That freedom of choice is what makes America great. The hate for trucks is very much a us vs them political thing.eV hate likely too but for different reasons (taxpayers aren't paying for 10% or more of a new expensive truck for people. Plus Teslas are super ugly and offensive to look at because they're so hideous.

That's just simply not true... if you mean more comfortable as in size sure... but in terms of suspension, no way... the body on frame setup makes the car wobble no matter what you do... my friend has a brand new f150 and another has a brand new f350 (granted he uses this one for work)... and yes they are full of features and well finished (they also cost close to $100K)... but when we drove it, it still felt like a truck and there was no changing that. Another friend of mine has a new raptor that doesn't fit it his garage and is loud as hell on the street but arguably he uses it offroad every once in a while so there is that...

if you like trucks, that's fine and there is no problem with that, i even like trucks... but i would argue most people never use their trucks for what they are for and live w the downsides of them... arguably, i would say because it's a lifestyle thing (at least definitely here in the south).