[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Indeed, they did.
Although it is a perfect example of Fallacy of Extrapolation.
90% EV market penetration is unlikely for the decades to come, as we are around 1% LDV fleet penetration today. Drawing any meaningful conclusions of what the world will look like by the time we hit 50%, never mind 90% (if ever) is a perfect example of over-extrapolation!



You keep mischaracterizing NREL study's 33% number.
I've already documented the differences between Scenarios 2, 3, and 5 in the earlier post, so I will not repeat myself. Here is the relevant graph:
Attachment 3673999

Scenario 5 (75%): Scenario considers residential charging to be available if a vehicle can be moved to a parking location where the respondent believes new electrical access can be installed.

No parking site modifications required.
Just plug-and-play L2 EVSE charger, and have a beer!
Scenario 2 (33%) means those folks have already plugged in L2 EVSE before the survey started.

Also, NREL projections are not some fancy modeling, but simply results of an online survey conducted back in 2021. 5,250 respondents were recruited, 3,772 complete responses were retained (page 12 - Methodology). That's it. Nothing too complicated.



It is that simple.
I don't know why you insist on over-complicating things, other than to fit some desired doom-and-gloom narrative?



That is precisely the focus of the NREL study!
NREL data is a little older (2021) and the ChargeLab study is a bit more current (2024).
ChargeLab study roughly aligns with NREL's conclusions as to what happens after someone buys an EV and buys and installs an L2 charger at home, as 86% of the respondents have done.



8% of new sales are EVs, adding up to 1.1% of the total existing fleet on the roads.
The bulk of 98.9% of the existing fleet could adopt EVs the same as 1.1% of the vehicle fleet that are EVs have done today - pretty simply and cheaply.
Not everyone will choose to do so this year (typical vehicle replacement cycles, personal preference, politics, price, design, form-factor availability, etc), but they technically could if they so desired.

No drama required.
1). L2 charging access is not a problem for 86% EV owners, and the L2 EVSEs are getting cheaper every year.
2). No evidence presented that public charging is a practical road block.
3). More public chargers would be better, and competition among public chargers will drive down the costs.
4). MSRP gap between ICE vs. EVs is there, but has been shrinking faster than anyone has anticipated. The difference was around 50% in the U.S. in 2021, decreased to 33% in 2022, and 15% in 2023.



What makes you pre-suppose that there is a problem with mass adoption?

EV propulsion is new technology that has been growing exponentially from basically nothing 5-10 years ago to ~8% of new car sales in the US (21% if you include EV + hybride) in 2024, ~20% in Europe, and ~40% in China.

That's pretty amazing.
Attachment 3673973



Despite the Ludditeness from some quarters, limited availability until very recently, and significant amount of fear and misinformation mongering by various anti-EV business interests.

a

P.S.: EV adoption by major market is below:

The word is Luddism. If you are trying to insult people, at least use the correct words and terms.

Of the some 60+ years I've lived on the planet, I've lived in just 5 houses. Including my extended family and friends, I can count at least 40 houses I am familiar with regarding the houses electrical system and parking arrangements. Just one of those houses had the electrical panel in the garage where an additional 240V 50-60 amp circuit and EVSE easily installed. My father was a developer and built primarily low cost housing, so I have a lot of familiarity with such housing for lower income owners. My first house was a 1950's starter house for young WWII Veterans. The neighborhood was quaint, with 900 sqft houses, street parking and 60-amp fuse panels. There are thousands of neighborhoods with hundreds of thousands of houses throughout the US in much the same format.

Having done a lot of electrical work on my own during several home renovations, installed my backup generator, and a complete system installation in my shop from installing the ground rod (a bitch) and aught feed to the 400-amp service panel and all the 120V and 240V supply circuits, I have a decent understanding of home electrical systems. Saying an L2 EVSE installation in the typical home is no more than plugging a $350 charger into an existing electrical dryer outlet really indicates a lack of understanding of the issue.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The word is Luddism. If you are trying to insult people, at least use the correct words and terms.

Of the some 60+ years I've lived on the planet, I've lived in just 5 houses. Including my extended family and friends, I can count at least 40 houses I am familiar with regarding the houses electrical system and parking arrangements. Just one of those houses had the electrical panel in the garage where an additional 240V 50-60 amp circuit and EVSE easily installed. My father was a developer and built primarily low cost housing, so I have a lot of familiarity with such housing for lower income owners. My first house was a 1950's starter house for young WWII Veterans. The neighborhood was quaint, with 900 sqft houses, street parking and 60-amp fuse panels. There are thousands of neighborhoods with hundreds of thousands of houses throughout the US in much the same format.

Having done a lot of electrical work on my own during several home renovations, installed my backup generator, and a complete system installation in my shop from installing the ground rod (a bitch) and aught feed to the 400-amp service panel and all the 120V and 240V supply circuits, I have a decent understanding of home electrical systems. Saying an L2 ESVE installation in the typical home is no more than plugging a $350 charger into an existing electrical dryer outlet really indicates a lack of understanding of the issue.

This is true, but most homes built or upgraded within the last 20 years should have plenty of space for a 240v circuit to be added. No, its not as simple as plugging it in to an existing outlet, but it is doable.

Ive added 240v outlets for my welders in all the houses ive owned with no issue. added the 240v circuit for my charger as well. And I've installed quite a few 240v circuits for friends/family/neighbors as well. Granted, all in homes built after 2000, but still fairly easy to fit another circuit in there.

Now, older houses, like my grandmas 1950s house that has never had any kind of remodel or electrical work done so its still the original shit wiring, yeah, not happening without a significant amount of work.

[TheWatchGuy]

Saw this this morning. This is the kind of thing i want EV to start adopting. make the driving experience more like a driving experience for those that want it.

https://www.carscoops.com/2025/02/ev...e-rev-limiter/

[3798j]

Google search answer to the question: how many homes in the US built before 1960...
"The percentage of homes in the United States built before 1960 varies by city, but in general, about 28% of homes nationwide were built before 1960."

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

This is true, but most homes built or upgraded within the last 20 years should have plenty of space for a 240v circuit to be added. No, its not as simple as plugging it in to an existing outlet, but it is doable.

Ive added 240v outlets for my welders in all the houses ive owned with no issue. added the 240v circuit for my charger as well. And I've installed quite a few 240v circuits for friends/family/neighbors as well. Granted, all in homes built after 2000, but still fairly easy to fit another circuit in there.

Now, older houses, like my grandmas 1950s house that has never had any kind of remodel or electrical work done so its still the original shit wiring, yeah, not happening without a significant amount of work.

Adding the breaker to the panel (assuming it has a blank spot) is only half the story though. The other half is the circuit wiring. What is the wire length? What penetrations does it need to get either outside to a parking space or into a garage? Is a subpanel necessary? Trenching and conduit? Is a pedestal required? An installation requiring trenching and conduit, or a subpanel, or extended wire length and a complicated pathway gets expensive. A $2,500 to $3,000 installation adds a year or two on to the EV cost parity payback. Does the expensive charger circuit add to the home's value, absolutely it will, but does the owner get to see the payback? All I'm saying is each residence installation is unique due numerous factors based on facility requirements and financial considerations of the owner. Saying it's $350 and just plugging into a dryer outlet is not anywhere close to realistic.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by TheWatchGuy

This is true, but most homes built or upgraded within the last 20 years should have plenty of space for a 240v circuit to be added. No, its not as simple as plugging it in to an existing outlet, but it is doable.

Ive added 240v outlets for my welders in all the houses ive owned with no issue. added the 240v circuit for my charger as well. And I've installed quite a few 240v circuits for friends/family/neighbors as well. Granted, all in homes built after 2000, but still fairly easy to fit another circuit in there.

Now, older houses, like my grandmas 1950s house that has never had any kind of remodel or electrical work done so its still the original shit wiring, yeah, not happening without a significant amount of work.

Unfortunately for me the power box for my house was entirely on the other side. Guys had to drill through the poured concrete basement and run the wires all the way to the other side and through an encapsulated area. Did both garages. Wasn’t cheap.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gblansten

Unfortunately for me the power box for my house was entirely on the other side. Guys had to drill through the poured concrete basement and run the wires all the way to the other side and through an encapsulated area. Did both garages. Wasn’t cheap.

For my current home, I can easily install an EVSE on my outside garage wall. It could be literally plug and play because I installed a 240V 50-amp circuit for my welder when I installed the electrical system. The problem is the garage is a 3-minute walk over from the house. In the rain, it would totally suck. Add the 6-minute round trip to the garage, I can charge any of my ICEV in 5 minutes and under the cover of the gas station's awning.

[Ohio Enthusiast]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I can charge any of my ICEV in 5 minutes and under the cover of the gas station's awning.

This always bothered me. People always say "it takes 5-10 minutes to fuel up an ICE car". I timed fueling up my Honda Odyssey - from the moment I turned off the engine to the moment I started it up again it took 2 minutes and 28 seconds; filled up 15 gallons (giving about 300 miles of combined range, or around 400 miles of highway range). Actual fuel dispensing time is shorter as this included getting out of the car, putting the credit card and getting the receipt (which would be more or less equivalent to futzing with the charger and app).
So for an ICE vehicle, apples to apples to an EV charging time claims, it is 2 minutes for 400 miles of range.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

This always bothered me. People always say "it takes 5-10 minutes to fuel up an ICE car". I timed fueling up my Honda Odyssey - from the moment I turned off the engine to the moment I started it up again it took 2 minutes and 28 seconds; filled up 15 gallons (giving about 300 miles of combined range, or around 400 miles of highway range). Actual fuel dispensing time is shorter as this included getting out of the car, putting the credit card and getting the receipt (which would be more or less equivalent to futzing with the charger and app).
So for an ICE vehicle, apples to apples to an EV charging time claims, it is 2 minutes for 400 miles of range.

I used to fill up twice a week when I was driving 35,000 miles a year for my office commute. Not that I timed every stop, but at a leisurely pace, 5 minutes is about what I averaged. My time includes recording the fuel stop in a note book for date, miles, gallons, and cost. Yup I can easily do it under 5 minutes but no need to rush. 3 minutes is all the better.

[TheWatchGuy]

Originally Posted by Ohio Enthusiast

This always bothered me. People always say "it takes 5-10 minutes to fuel up an ICE car". I timed fueling up my Honda Odyssey - from the moment I turned off the engine to the moment I started it up again it took 2 minutes and 28 seconds; filled up 15 gallons (giving about 300 miles of combined range, or around 400 miles of highway range). Actual fuel dispensing time is shorter as this included getting out of the car, putting the credit card and getting the receipt (which would be more or less equivalent to futzing with the charger and app).
So for an ICE vehicle, apples to apples to an EV charging time claims, it is 2 minutes for 400 miles of range.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I used to fill up twice a week when I was driving 35,000 miles a year for my office commute. Not that I timed every stop, but at a leisurely pace, 5 minutes is about what I averaged. My time includes recording the fuel stop in a note book for date, miles, gallons, and cost. Yup I can easily do it under 5 minutes but no need to rush. 3 minutes is all the better.

Yeah, EV isnt a great idea if you cant charge at home, or if you are doing 300miles daily.

For the majority of EV buyers/prospective EV buyers that can charge at home (even if they have to install chargers/do some electrical work) and drive 200 miles or less a day, its not a bad gig.

and with how much of a discount you can get on EVs right now compared to their ICE counterparts, the savings more than make up for the cost of installing a charger unless youre having to rewire your entire house.

[DrVenture]

My bud had a home charger professionally installed and our utility company rebated him the full amount, including adding a sub-panel. I've also seen rebates from the car manufacturers for chargers. He got a premium trim EV on a $400 a month lease. It is his only car, a Toyota. He loves it. No problems with range, despite not being a big battery and even with cold weather here.

If you cannot charge primarily at home, you might not want an EV. Agreed.
If you drive too many miles a day, you might not want an EV. Agreed.

Not for everyone. That's been established. Still not sinking in, perhaps. Or some other agenda in play.

Plugging in at home takes 30 seconds or less at end of day, he tells me.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by afadeev

Indeed, they did.
Although it is a perfect example of Fallacy of Extrapolation.
90% EV market penetration is unlikely for the decades to come, as we are around 1% LDV fleet penetration today. Drawing any meaningful conclusions of what the world will look like by the time we hit 50%, never mind 90% (if ever) is a perfect example of over-extrapolation!



You keep mischaracterizing NREL study's 33% number.
I've already documented the differences between Scenarios 2, 3, and 5 in the earlier post, so I will not repeat myself. Here is the relevant graph:
Attachment 3673999

Scenario 5 (75%): Scenario considers residential charging to be available if a vehicle can be moved to a parking location where the respondent believes new electrical access can be installed.

No parking site modifications required.
Just plug-and-play L2 EVSE charger, and have a beer!
Scenario 2 (33%) means those folks have already plugged in L2 EVSE before the survey started.

Also, NREL projections are not some fancy modeling, but simply results of an online survey conducted back in 2021. 5,250 respondents were recruited, 3,772 complete responses were retained (page 12 - Methodology). That's it. Nothing too complicated.



It is that simple.
I don't know why you insist on over-complicating things, other than to fit some desired doom-and-gloom narrative?



That is precisely the focus of the NREL study!
NREL data is a little older (2021) and the ChargeLab study is a bit more current (2024).
ChargeLab study roughly aligns with NREL's conclusions as to what happens after someone buys an EV and buys and installs an L2 charger at home, as 86% of the respondents have done.



8% of new sales are EVs, adding up to 1.1% of the total existing fleet on the roads.
The bulk of 98.9% of the existing fleet could adopt EVs the same as 1.1% of the vehicle fleet that are EVs have done today - pretty simply and cheaply.
Not everyone will choose to do so this year (typical vehicle replacement cycles, personal preference, politics, price, design, form-factor availability, etc), but they technically could if they so desired.

No drama required.
1). L2 charging access is not a problem for 86% EV owners, and the L2 EVSEs are getting cheaper every year.
2). No evidence presented that public charging is a practical road block.
3). More public chargers would be better, and competition among public chargers will drive down the costs.
4). MSRP gap between ICE vs. EVs is there, but has been shrinking faster than anyone has anticipated. The difference was around 50% in the U.S. in 2021, decreased to 33% in 2022, and 15% in 2023.



What makes you pre-suppose that there is a problem with mass adoption?

EV propulsion is new technology that has been growing exponentially from basically nothing 5-10 years ago to ~8% of new car sales in the US (21% if you include EV + hybride) in 2024, ~20% in Europe, and ~40% in China.

That's pretty amazing.
Attachment 3673973



Despite the Ludditeness from some quarters, limited availability until very recently, and significant amount of fear and misinformation mongering by various anti-EV business interests.

a

P.S.: EV adoption by major market is below:

You know you are schooling someone, when they start focusing on grammar and vocabulary, despite your being clearly well-educated and well-spoken and well-informed.

Great job not taking the bait (deflections and ad hominem attacks). And staying on message. The word 'Luddite" has clearly gotten under someone's skin. A form of self-identification, even.

What some folks never understand is that their selective, weak, or straw man arguments become the springboard to an opportunity to set the record straight. A foil, so to speak. You have done an excellent job of using the provided opportunity to present facts.

There is a clear path to a much higher EV adoption rate, both right now and in the future. A clear path to better and cheaper EVs, as manufacturing ramps up.. And a lot of room for enhanced charging infrastructure.

There is not a product in the world that is right, or perfect, for everyone or every circumstance. Pointing out how many people shouldn't own a winter coat, doesn't make them wrong for many people.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

You know you are schooling someone, when they start focusing on grammar and vocabulary, despite your being clearly well-educated and well-spoken and well-informed.

Great job not taking the bait (deflections and ad hominem attacks). And staying on message. The word 'Luddite" has clearly gotten under someone's skin. A form of self-identification, even.

What some folks never understand is that their weak, or straw man, arguments become the springboard to an opportunity to set the record straight. A foil, so to speak. You have done an excellent of using the provided opportunity to present facts.

There is a clear path to a much higher EV adoption rate, both right now and in the future. A clear path to better and cheaper EVs, as manufacturing ramps up.. And a lot of room for enhanced charging infrastructure.

There is not a product in the world that is right, or perfect, for everyone or every circumstance. Pointing out how many people shouldn't own a winter coat, doesn't make them wrong for many people.

Agree on great discussion by Afadeev. Enjoying reading through the thread.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

There is not a product in the world that is right, or perfect, for everyone or every circumstance. Pointing out how many people shouldn't own a winter coat, doesn't make them wrong for many people.

You've clearly never had Cinnabon.

Jokes aside, your point is right on. That's why when the government gets involved, and says that by 2035 all new clothes must be winter coats. And that going forward, there's a corporate average clothing weight that must be met, with steep fines assessed for any clothing that doesn't meet that number, and that number is also unrealistic unless it's a heavy down winter parka. Let alone offering a taxpayer debt funded subsidy for people to buy winter coats, but really all the ones that qualify are from expensive brands, nhe ones you can get at Walmart don't qualify.

[DrVenture]

In related news, TSLA dropped another 4% today. TSLA is down 25% in 1-month. Morningstar assigns them a narrow moat rating (against competition) and fair value of $250/share. Another 15% down from here possibly.

"Tesla's January deliveries in Europe fell to nearly half the level of January 2024, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers' Association. This sent the shares down 8% in Feb. 25 intraday trading. Tesla's deliveries fell for the first time in 2024. A slow start in January could mean that Tesla is off track to meet management's guidance for deliveries growth in 2025. Lower deliveries reduce Tesla's total addressable market for ancillary products and services. These include autonomous driving software, charging, and insurance in select US states."

Meanwhile overall EV growth in the EU was around 35%.

[Tejas1836]

TSLA P/E at present valuation is like ~149, dang

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

You know you are schooling someone, when they start focusing on grammar and vocabulary, despite your being clearly well-educated and well-spoken and well-informed.

Great job not taking the bait (deflections and ad hominem attacks). And staying on message. The word 'Luddite" has clearly gotten under someone's skin. A form of self-identification, even.

What some folks never understand is that their selective, weak, or straw man arguments become the springboard to an opportunity to set the record straight. A foil, so to speak. You have done an excellent job of using the provided opportunity to present facts.

There is a clear path to a much higher EV adoption rate, both right now and in the future. A clear path to better and cheaper EVs, as manufacturing ramps up.. And a lot of room for enhanced charging infrastructure.

There is not a product in the world that is right, or perfect, for everyone or every circumstance. Pointing out how many people shouldn't own a winter coat, doesn't make them wrong for many people.

Let's go back to class.

Citing a statistic that says 86% of purchased EV (8% of the current market) are charged at home does not mean the remaining 92% can be charged at home at the same level of 86%. That is the question: What percentage of US homes that do not currently have an EV can support EVSE at a reasonable installation cost? The answer is dependent on two variables, (a) the depth and breadth of installing EVSE at the vehicle parking spot and (b) the financial tolerance of the prospective EV buyer to pay for the modifications to the home for either or both installing the EVSE and creating the parking spot to park the EV at the charging apparatus.

afadeev hasn't even come close to providing any data that answers the question. What he has said is, EVSE costs $350 and can simply be plugged into a dryer circuit.

[Ugly Kar]

Making it obvious for Audi. See #4.
https://www.audiworld.com/how-tos/sl...-all-ev-lineup

[afadeev]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Citing a statistic that says 86% of purchased EV (8% of the current market) are charged at home does not mean the remaining 92% can be charged at home at the same level of 86%.

No such argument was ever presented.
86% C@H (charge at home) statistic was cited as a validation to collaborate your favorite study's assessment that 75% of folks could get C@H access by moving the cars around their property.
I guess we agree on that now?

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

That is the question: What percentage of US homes that do not currently have an EV can support EVSE at a reasonable installation cost? The answer is dependent on two variables, (a) the depth and breadth of installing EVSE at the vehicle parking spot and (b) the financial tolerance of the prospective EV buyer to pay for the modifications to the home for either or both installing the EVSE and creating the parking spot to park the EV at the charging apparatus.

Your favorite study also predicted that it's conclusions are valid until the US achieves 50+% EV penetration. Given that we are at ~1% LDV fleet penetration today, I would suggest that all this worrying about C@H access is overblown for at least the next couple of decades.

There is just no data to substantiate the "drivers can't get C@H, earth is falling" hypothesis.

Either that, or you no longer trust your own favorite study!?!

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

afadeev hasn't even come close to providing any data that answers the question. What he has said is, EVSE costs $350 and can simply be plugged into a dryer circuit.

You keep overplaying the "oh we can't charge at home" card over and over again. Even when your own study, and other more recent surveys, indicate that it's not a show stopper for 75% of US households.
And beyond that, somehow 86% of EV buyers have figured out how to C@H. So, how hard can it be?

We could dig into this subject further, if you like, but you have to start by admitting that you either misunderstood the study you keep citing, or are purposely misrepresenting it.

I have a sense that that's not your objective. You (and 3-4 other frequent anti-EV posters) are just grasping at the straws as to why EVs should be avoided.
The (erroneous) frequently cited anti-EV reasons are:

1. No-one can figure out how to plug EVs to charge, especially at home. Or on the road. Or there is not enough electricity to go around.
2. EVs spontaneously combust, especially at home. They are unsafe. They will fail on you when it rains / snows / hails / freezes.
3. EVs are unreliable / too expensive to maintain / too expensive to charge. EVs are just too expensive.
4. EVs are actually bad for the environment, just because.
5. Governments (or elites) tell me to buy EVs, so screw them and screw the EVs!
6. I need 600+ miles of uninterrupted driving range. My bladder can hold it!

I think we've beat #1 to death by now.
Care to pick the next myth we should dispel?

Cheers!
a

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by afadeev

No such argument was ever presented.
86% C@H (charge at home) statistic was cited as a validation to collaborate your favorite study's assessment that 75% of folks could get C@H access by moving the cars around their property.
I guess we agree on that now?



Your favorite study also predicted that it's conclusions are valid until the US achieves 50+% EV penetration. Given that we are at ~1% LDV fleet penetration today, I would suggest that all this worrying about C@H access is overblown for at least the next couple of decades.
Attachment 3680692
There is just no data to substantiate the "drivers can't get C@H, earth is falling" hypothesis.

Either that, or you no longer trust your own favorite study!?!


You keep overplaying the "oh we can't charge at home" card over and over again. Even when your own study, and other more recent surveys, indicate that it's not a show stopper for either 75% of US households.
And beyond that, somehow 86% of EV buyers have figured out how to C@H. So, how hard can it be?

We could dig into this subject further, if you like, but you have to start by admitting that you either misunderstood the study you keep citing, or are purposely misrepresenting it.

I have a sense that that's not your objective. You (and 3-4 other frequent anti-EV posters) are just grasping at the straws as to why EVs should be avoided.
The (erroneous) frequently cited anti-EV reasons are:

1. No-one can figure out how to plug EVs to charge, especially at home. Or on the road. Or there is not enough electricity to go around.
2. EVs spontaneously combust, especially at home. They are unsafe. They will fail on you when it rains / snows / hails / freezes.
3. EVs are unreliable / too expensive to maintain / too expensive to charge. EVs are just too expensive.
4. EVs are actually bad for the environment, just because.
5. Governments (or elites) want me to buy EVs, so screw them and screw the EVs!
6. I need 600+ miles of uninterrupted driving range. My bladder can hold it!

I think we've beat #1 to death by now.
Care to pick the next myth we should dispel?

Cheers!
a

The 86% isn't an argument, it's the question, i.e. of the homes not yet supporting an EV with EVSE, what percentage can support at-home charging at a reasonable installation cost tolerable to the occupant. My contention is, it is not another 86%. The NREL study is clear on the point that as EV needs to penetrate the lower income segment of the market to gain market share, lower-income potential buyers will be more reluctant to invest in electrical and parking upgrades to accommodate at home charging due to affordability concerns.

[gblansten]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The 86% isn't an argument, it's the question, i.e. of the homes not yet supporting an EV with EVSE, what percentage can support at-home charging at a reasonable installation cost tolerable to the occupant. My contention is, it is not another 86%. The NREL study is clear on the point that as EV needs to penetrate the lower income segment of the market to gain market share, lower-income potential buyers will be more reluctant to invest in electrical and parking upgrades to accommodate at home charging due to affordability concerns.

If EV cost compared to ICE continues to come down I can see a good value proposition here for someone to pay for a level 2. Also, many many states (in the US) have rebates for doing this. Even Southern states have rebates through their power utilities that helps defray the cost of a level 2 installation.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gblansten

If EV cost compared to ICE continues to come down I can see a good value proposition here for someone to pay for a level 2. Also, many many states (in the US) have rebates for doing this. Even Southern states have rebates through their power utilities that helps defray the cost of a level 2 installation.

All good, but what if the potential low-income EV buyer does not own his dwelling and only rents (which is probably the majority scenario)? Even if he gets local state incentives or even local utility incentives (i.e. discounted electrical service upgrades), if he doesn't own the property he's not going to put money into the upgrades. Likewise, the landlord may not see the advantage to upgrading the rental property when the next renter maybe ICEV only. It's a catch 22 situation.

Not meaning to go through every possible scenario here, rather just pointing out in general terms that trying to acertain what the EV market is with respect to home charging upgrades is very difficult. What seems somewhat clear is the market is adjusting to a much slower adoption rate than what industry expected.

I think it's also a catch 22 situation at the public infrastructure level. Build it and they will come vs. Buy it and it will be built...