[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

There is nothing wrong with the steering feel on my M4 - enjoy canyon carving with it as much as my E46 M3.

The throttle response in my M4 is excellent and with the torque, when you touch the throttle something happens - best of any BMW that I have owned.

I really don't care about working on it - I don't do my own work, but in 2 years it hasn't required any work.

I bet you are a lot of fun at car club events.

Dude is probably insufferable at club events.

And I dunno why he makes it sound like you can't work on an M4 yourself if you wanted to as if it's some sort of mythical, alien technology that it runs on.

Oh I know why, rosy retrospection.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

The steering feel is your opinion - not mine.

I didn't say that torque was a measure of throttle response. I said the throttle response was fine AND with the torque, it does something when I step on the pedal.

I said I didn't care about it being harder to work on, because I don't do my own work. Didn't say it was a measure od serviceability.

With all the mods on your E46 M3, how can it even be considered a BMW or be compared to a stock F8X?

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...21&postcount=2

I'm done - enjoy your sad life.

Most of those mods are pretty much useless and yes....can be done on an M4 or pretty much any car.

Plus his gripes about steering are hilarious, again it's all rosy retrospection. I think that in the M3/M4 the steering is excellent, especially in Sport mode (feels a bit too fake in Sport+, too tame in Comfort). That conclusion is pretty consistent with what automotive journalists feel too but what do we know? That tool is clearly the arbiter on all things BMW.

Shame the F3x models didn't have similar steering set ups.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Oh I know why, rosy retrospection.

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Plus his gripes about steering are hilarious, again it's all rosy retrospection.

For it to be retrospection, I'd have to be looking back on those cars. I'm not-- I still drive them every day.

ret·ro·spec·tion
noun
the action of looking back on or reviewing past events or situations, especially those in one's own life.

Not retrospection, by the very definition of the word.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Most of those mods are pretty much useless and yes....can be done on an M4 or pretty much any car.

Plus his gripes about steering are hilarious, again it's all rosy retrospection. I think that in the M3/M4 the steering is excellent, especially in Sport mode (feels a bit too fake in Sport+, too tame in Comfort). That conclusion is pretty consistent with what automotive journalists feel too but what do we know? That tool is clearly the arbiter on all things BMW.

Shame the F3x models didn't have similar steering set ups.

This is too funny...just had to chime in...LOL...

I don't think anyone is questioning the steering of the F80/82...pretty sure it can turn around corners...the point being made is that compared to an E46 M3...the feel, or the lack thereof, is laughable...I think that's the point Obioban was trying to get across.

With that said, I'm pretty sure that EVERY SINGLE automotive journalist has ragged on the steering feel of the F80/82 compared to the E46 or E90/92 M3...or anything BMW M has done in the past (hydraulically). Matter of fact, even compared to some of its competition, BMWs EPS is found lacking in every aspect...

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by mirob

This is too funny...just had to chime in...LOL...

I don't think anyone is questioning the steering of the F80/82...pretty sure it can turn around corners...the point being made is that compared to an E46 M3...the feel, or the lack thereof, is laughable...I think that's the point Obioban was trying to get across.

With that said, I'm pretty sure that EVERY SINGLE automotive journalist has ragged on the steering feel of the F80/82 compared to the E46 or E90/92 M3...or anything BMW M has done in the past (hydraulically). Matter of fact, even compared to some of its competition, BMWs EPS is found lacking in every aspect...

Yeah no...we all knew what he meant and you'd be wrong with your last comment, no one is praising it as the greatest steering on the face of the planet, but it's generally favorable aside from the lack of direct feedback since its.....electronic.

Jalopnik:

I have a bit of a gripe, and it's not with this car. It's with the immediate stance that electric power steering is bad power steering. I postulate that bad power steering is bad power steering, hydraulic or electric. The new M3 has EPAS, and it's one of the best implementations of electric assist yet, and is definitely better than the hydraulic steering in something like the Jaguar F-Type.

http://jalopnik.com/2015-bmw-m3-the-...iew-1635342844

NYT:

“Distant” also describes the steering sensations. Yet the steering is so agile, smartly weighted and accurate, and the cars so cemented and confident, that a lack of pure fingertip feel is quickly forgiven.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/au...d-m4.html?_r=0

Motor Trend:

On the road, both sedan and coupe drive virtually identically. Both are extremely focused and an astonishing amount of fun to drive. The ride is very firm, even in the softest Comfort setting. Sport + is really too firm for most back roads and the uneven surfaces that come with them. That said, the cars remain incredibly flat (helped no doubt by those beefy, hollow anti-roll bars) to the degree that there’s really no perceptible roll on the street. Though it’s somewhat a foregone conclusion with so many cars in the age of electric steering, feel from behind the wheel is a little disappointing. Precision and weighting are excellent in Sport + mode, but there’s just not a huge indication of what’s happening at the front tires’ contact patches.

http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-...m4-first-test/

Car and Driver:

The skidpad figure translates to grip that’s easily exploited in real-world conditions, and a rear subframe bolted directly to the structure—no bushings here, man—provides ample feedback about the rear-end’s behavior at the limit. This is good, because as we’ve noted before, very little information makes its way to the driver via the steering wheel. The steering otherwise is quick, linear, and responsive . . . but it’s numb. For this reason, we preferred the steering’s Comfort mode even during strafing runs, as going more aggressive doesn’t seem to benefit turn-in, and stepping up in weight just makes changing direction more of a chore for the driver.

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m3

Chris Harris (steering at the 2 min mark, he believes its better than the E9x M3):

Top Gear:

But it doesn’t really matter because both are a hoot to drive. Let’s not get into actual steering feel as that seems to be a thing of the past now everyone is using some kind of electrical assistance on the racks. The M3 - as long as you avoid either Comfort mode (too much assistance) or Sport Plus (too little) – does a pretty good job in Sport of being accurate, well weighted and giving you confidence in the front end. Which, to be fair, sticks like glue.

http://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/b...ct/first-drive

Plus the M3 is generally favored over it's competition so yes while the steering doesn't provide as much feed back as a lot of hydraulic power steering counterparts, people like to blow it out of proportion to convince themselves that their car is better.

[W///]

So what? Who would argue that the E46 M3 had more steering feel than the E30 M3?

Look, at the end of the day, are we going to change each others opinions? These threads pop up every couple of months and it's always the same

[GuidoK]

At the end of the day the current m3 gets its ass kicked by a civic on the track with over 100hp less and costing only a fraction.

thats what this discussion should be about.
The purpose of the m3 is being ahead of the competition. Mercedes has more powerful models in the same packeage, and lesser cheaper models that have been the result of extensive factory track testing to win the fwd race now have a more balanced chassis to beat the m3 on the track with 100+hp short...
/M used to stand for Motorsport, so a really powerful car that makes wonders happen on the track. But having your direct competitors beat you on power and new competitors beat you on handling, trackperformance and price is not a good thing for something that is named 'Motorsport'. I think the S55 is an interesting and advanced engine with its short turbo to manifold piping and air2water cooling but it may be tuned far to conservatively. And although there is much carbon and aluminium in the chassis, its still not really light.
So in a nutshell it probably needs 100kg less and 100hp more. I think they focus far too much on looks and luxury and too little what makes a car really fast; nimble, light chassis and a strong engine.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Yeah no...we all knew what he meant and you'd be wrong with your last comment, no one is praising it as the greatest steering on the face of the planet, but it's generally favorable aside from the lack of direct feedback since its.....electronic.

Jalopnik:



http://jalopnik.com/2015-bmw-m3-the-...iew-1635342844

NYT:



http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/28/au...d-m4.html?_r=0

Motor Trend:


http://www.motortrend.com/news/2015-...m4-first-test/

Car and Driver:

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m3

Chris Harris (steering at the 2 min mark, he believes its better than the E9x M3):

Top Gear:


http://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/b...ct/first-drive

Plus the M3 is generally favored over it's competition so yes while the steering doesn't provide as much feed back as a lot of hydraulic power steering counterparts, people like to blow it out of proportion to convince themselves that their car is better.

Fist of, let me say that I love a healthy discussion. All this is just a matter of opinions.

All of these make sense...steering works but has no feel. It's silly to argue feel between these two generations of cars...no matter how much feedback they engineer into the system it will always feel artificial. Feel and feedback are two different things...to me at least. To me feel=connection and feedback=resistance...

The new generation does well when reviewed against its peers, but not so well when compared to its predecessors. That was the argument. The research you did only illustrates that further.

...and you'd be wrong to assume that I'm trying to convince myself that my car is better than anything...my E46 M3 had great feel but was slow...my X5 M is fast but has no feel despite the hydraulic steering...you win some, you lose some...

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

At the end of the day the current m3 gets its ass kicked by a civic on the track with over 100hp less and costing only a fraction.

thats what this discussion should be about.
The purpose of the m3 is being ahead of the competition. Mercedes has more powerful models in the same packeage, and lesser cheaper models that have been the result of extensive factory track testing to win the fwd race now have a more balanced chassis to beat the m3 on the track with 100+hp short...
/M used to stand for Motorsport, so a really powerful car that makes wonders happen on the track. But having your direct competitors beat you on power and new competitors beat you on handling, trackperformance and price is not a good thing for something that is named 'Motorsport'. I think the S55 is an interesting and advanced engine with its short turbo to manifold piping and air2water cooling but it may be tuned far to conservatively. And although there is much carbon and aluminium in the chassis, its still not really light.
So in a nutshell it probably needs 100kg less and 100hp more. I think they focus far too much on looks and luxury and too little what makes a car really fast; nimble, light chassis and a strong engine.

Did you actually watch the video? He says he turned off all of the electronic nannies in the M3...he probably should've kept them on, he was getting way too tail happy which, while fun, kills your time.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the CTR can pull similar times to an M3, the latest gen is no slouch. It destroyed the 'Ring and ran it in around 7:50, same time the M3/M4 are rumored to run it in.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Did you actually watch the video? He says he turned off all of the electronic nannies in the M3...he probably should've kept them on, he was getting way too tail happy which, while fun, kills your time.

That presenter was a professional racecar driver before becoming presenter, I think he knows how to handle a car. I'm pretty sure he drives better than all of us here. (yes, Ive watched the video)

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if the CTR can pull similar times to an M3, the latest gen is no slouch. It destroyed the 'Ring and ran it in around 7:50, same time the M3/M4 are rumored to run it in.

Yes it's not only on that small track, it does the same on the nordschleife with all its high speed stretches (2sec faster than the m4). It's a sorted car that it can do that with 120bhp less. Same goes for the megane trophy (2 sec slower on the nordschleife than the m4), cupra r290 and all those hatches that are tied up in this crazy fwd battle on who is the fastest.
And in that they can equal or even surpass the m3 with far less HP (120-150HP down) for far less money.
What I mean to say is that BMW should get its 'M' priority right again like those other manufacturers do to see who is fastest. Because 'M' now certainly doesnt stand for 'Motorsport' anymore. More like 'Marketing' or 'Make believe?'
How else can you explain cars in the same class (reasonable compact 4 seater cars) but down 120-150hp and still just as fast.
How did they (renault, honda) gain so much over the last few years over a brand like BMW?
Can you imagine a 1995 comparison in nordschleife lap times between the 321hp e36 M3 and the fastest civic at the time, a 160hp 1.6 civic. What would be the chance that they would be equally fast....and thats where we are today.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

That presenter was a professional racecar driver before becoming presenter, I think he knows how to handle a car. I'm pretty sure he drives better than all of us here. (yes, Ive watched the video)

If you watched it, then surely you noticed he was getting the tail out wayyyy too much. That costs seconds, it's not rocket science. Even professionals are prone to errors, or maybe he was just having fun. Not like the automotive review was meant to be incredibly scientific or anything.

Yes it's not only on that small track, it does the same on the nordschleife with all its high speed stretches (2sec faster than the m4). It's a sorted car that it can do that with 120bhp less. Same goes for the megane trophy (2 sec slower on the nordschleife than the m4), cupra r290 and all those hatches that are tied up in this crazy fwd battle on who is the fastest.
And in that they can equal or even surpass the m3 with far less HP (120-150HP down) for far less money.
What I mean to say is that BMW should get its 'M' priority right again like those other manufacturers do to see who is fastest. Because 'M' now certainly doesnt stand for 'Motorsport' anymore. More like 'Marketing' or 'Make believe?'
How else can you explain cars in the same class (reasonable compact 4 seater cars) but down 120-150hp and still just as fast.
How did they (renault, honda) gain so much over the last few years over a brand like BMW?
Can you imagine a 1995 comparison in nordschleife lap times between the 321hp e36 M3 and the fastest civic at the time, a 160hp 1.6 civic. What would be the chance that they would be equally fast....and thats where we are today.

Pretty good world if you ask me, don't need to make a shit ton of money to buy a capable car anymore. Plus it shouldn't be entirely surprising, back in 1995 an Eclipse GS-T or GS-X would've given an M3 a decent run for its money (on paper anyway, just like the CTR does today) at a fraction of the price.

I'd still would never actually own a CTR over an M3.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

If you watched it, then surely you noticed he was getting the tail out wayyyy too much. That costs seconds, it's not rocket science. Even professionals are prone to errors, or maybe he was just having fun. Not like the automotive review was meant to be incredibly scientific or anything.

Yes I know its easy to comment from the sideline not having your own vid on display. Typing expertise is much easier than filming it.
However, this exact same remark is also said in the youtube comments, and autoexpress themselves replied with...
"The tail-out stuff on the video isn't from the hot lap. They're just eye candy."
I think that explains everthing. I'm pretty sure a guy like Steve Sutcliffe wont risk his pro driving reputation by throwing results in favor of a honda, he's way to proud for that. IMHO He does these test with a serious perspective because he thinks he's good.

And the results match more or less the outcome of other professional testing teams, this is just a confirmation that it's not just on the nordschleife (althoug I would have thought that the ring would be a track far in favour of the m3, but apparantly it isnt)

I'm just wondering how honda, renault and seat pull it off, making cars just as fast as the legendary m3, the pinnacle of performance (to some at least), but 120-150hp down on power in a fairly similar type of car (4 seater mid to compact). I mean on acceleration and top speed the m3 with all that power will be quicker. Is it braking? speed in corners? I know fwd cars (the hot hatches at least) took a huge leap in roadholding when they started fitting quaife lsd's (the cupra is the only one with a computer controlled diff I think), and they all use a mcpherson strut with extra kingpin, but is that all that is needed? Or are those manufacturers just more serious and putting more efford in tweaking the car to get real results and less in coming up with streetcred ricerlike parts that mostly look good but dont help the car at all?

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes I know its easy to comment from the sideline not having your own vid on display. Typing expertise is much easier than filming it.
However, this exact same remark is also said in the youtube comments, and autoexpress themselves replied with...
"The tail-out stuff on the video isn't from the hot lap. They're just eye candy."
I think that explains everthing. I'm pretty sure a guy like Steve Sutcliffe wont risk his pro driving reputation by throwing results in favor of a honda, he's way to proud for that. IMHO He does these test with a serious perspective because he thinks he's good.

And the results match more or less the outcome of other professional testing teams, this is just a confirmation that it's not just on the nordschleife (althoug I would have thought that the ring would be a track far in favour of the m3, but apparantly it isnt)

Ah gotcha lol because when you mentioned he was a professional driver I thought that he looked like me on a few of those turns. That makes much more sense then lol.

I'm not too surprised that the CTR held its own on the Ring. It's fairly light and pushes some serious power now that they finally went turbo.

[mirob]

Sutcliffe wasn't a big fan of the new M3/M4 at first...he even picked the last-gen C63 AMG 507 over the M4...however, he really liked the new Competition Package when he drove it recently.

Curious how much the Competition Package could improve on the regular M4's Ring time...

[GuidoK]

I think he was mostly moaning about the m4's noise.

[mirob]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I think he was mostly moaning about the m4's noise.

Yeah, that and a couple of other things...
This is coming from a guy who picked an Alpina D3 over an M3...so, like everyone else said...got to reserve your judgment with these so-called professionals...

[Obioban]

It's important to remember that the opinion of anyone that doesn't agree with you is invalid.

F8X is the best or I can't hear you!

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yes I know its easy to comment from the sideline not having your own vid on display. Typing expertise is much easier than filming it.
However, this exact same remark is also said in the youtube comments, and autoexpress themselves replied with...
"The tail-out stuff on the video isn't from the hot lap. They're just eye candy."
I think that explains everthing. I'm pretty sure a guy like Steve Sutcliffe wont risk his pro driving reputation by throwing results in favor of a honda, he's way to proud for that. IMHO He does these test with a serious perspective because he thinks he's good.

And the results match more or less the outcome of other professional testing teams, this is just a confirmation that it's not just on the nordschleife (althoug I would have thought that the ring would be a track far in favour of the m3, but apparantly it isnt)

I'm just wondering how honda, renault and seat pull it off, making cars just as fast as the legendary m3, the pinnacle of performance (to some at least), but 120-150hp down on power in a fairly similar type of car (4 seater mid to compact). I mean on acceleration and top speed the m3 with all that power will be quicker. Is it braking? speed in corners? I know fwd cars (the hot hatches at least) took a huge leap in roadholding when they started fitting quaife lsd's (the cupra is the only one with a computer controlled diff I think), and they all use a mcpherson strut with extra kingpin, but is that all that is needed? Or are those manufacturers just more serious and putting more efford in tweaking the car to get real results and less in coming up with streetcred ricerlike parts that mostly look good but dont help the car at all?

While BMW has been resting on its laurels by going mainstream and cashing in on its (formerly) well-deserved Motorsport reputation, other more serious manufacturers seem to have focused their R&D efforts and money on producing better all-around performance cars than BMW.

Those of us who have driven BMW 3-Series cars produced from the mid-1970s through the mid-2000s understand what's lacking in new BMWs... Great balance and superior handling used to be what BMW's older 3-Series cars were all about, and this formula is what made the BMW 3-Series the "benchmark" sports sedan in its class for three decades. In my opinion, all of the technological gadgets, M logos and turbocharged horsepower in modern BMWs don't even begin to make up for the lack of balance or handling in the cars.

BMW has proven to me that newer is not necessarily better, especially with the F30 (and E90).

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by mirob

Yeah, that and a couple of other things...
This is coming from a guy who picked an Alpina D3 over an M3...so, like everyone else said...got to reserve your judgment with these so-called professionals...

Still the lap times dont lie. I mean he had nothing to do with professional factory test teams on the nordschleife I think?
Like I said I dont even think he'll risk his professional reputation by deliberately throwing results on a test track. It's more likely that they are consistent with what other drivers experienced, foremost as that was on the ring which like I said in my opionion should (or I'd expect) favor a higher powered cars having some long stretches. thus testing on a short technical track its pretty plausible that the civic R is faster than the m3.
So imho there is nothing that really points to him being a 'so-called' professional. His reputation is pretty firm I think. In that scope you can also question the reputation of Tiff Needell, Jason Plato and a bunch of others that were once professional drivers turned journalist and not journalism degree writers with a race training course.
I mean have you driven both and do you have a professional racing career? I dont, so why would I pick your opinion over someone that has earned merit?

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

In my opinion, all of the technological gadgets, M logos and turbocharged horsepower in modern BMWs don't even begin to make up for the lack of balance or handling in the cars.

I dont know if that's the case. I mean look at the GT-R. Ok that has 800cc more volume, but that's very fast and I expected bmw to somewhat rival that car with new tech and an FI engine. But instead its 100hp down on that (even more to the current one) and seems to be outmatched, although lighter. I dont think lots of tech and a turbocharged engine makes a car slow, I think bmw isnt concerned anymore with making a really fast semi track oriented car anymore. I somewhat expected BMW setting a car like that as the benchmark.
For that matter I would love to see an era again for high profile race classes again where homologation was required (and then in a reasonable amount of production numbers). That way you get cars on the road that were developed for a sporting purpose, not a /Marketing purpose.

As for the fwd vs rwd debate, I wonder if the FWD's natural character to be more understeered and safer/easier to correct when things go wrong (spinning, thus driving on the edge) influences professional drivers. To what point is a professional driver holding back in a rwd to set a lap time thus not crashing the car and is that professional driver willing to push an fwd car further knowing that when he pushes it too far he has more chance of correcting that and resume the test?

[W///]

Originally Posted by Obioban

It's important to remember that the opinion of anyone that doesn't agree with you is invalid.

F8X is the best or I can't hear you!

Coming from literally the biggest E46 M3 fan boy on the internet, that actually makes me chuckle.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

BMW has proven to me that newer is not necessarily better, especially with the F30 (and E90).

Couldn't disagree more on the E90. It's the pinnacle of the 3-series, and by far the best one across many areas from body-in-white torsional and bending rigidity to far better reliability than any prior version, etc, etc. It's the F30 where the huge divergence happened (i.e. steering ruined, rear suspension designed to toe in substantially under compression for more understeer, etc, etc).

It's one of the reasons after owning many BMWs for decades (and tracking, racing, enjoying them), I've essentially stopped at the E9x platform and currently own three of those.

Then again, this is all just an "opinion," which means it's worthless to most. My "opinion" does come from 45 years of involvement with BMWs, 40+ years of autocrossing, 35+ years of track and instructor experience, so you can see where my evaluation parameters lie -- performance, handling, driving experience *first*; comfort, do-dads, and all that junk a distant 2nd.

I wouldn't mind still having my E46 I suppose, but the E90 is a lot more fun, a better overall car in so many respects without being ruined by all the shenanigans BMW has implemented on F30 onward cars.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by W///

Coming from literally the biggest E46 M3 fan boy on the internet, that actually makes me chuckle.

I am a huge fan of the e46 M3. But, by no means do I think it's the best car for everyone. Just the best car for me.

e.g. my wife refuses to drive it