[Harpinc]

My observation is that the people that have never raced and or won races like to think that Ocon did nothing wrong. Believe it or not, back markers are in NO WAY supposed to impede the race leader. He could've easily gotten DRS on the next straight. YOU DON'T race the leader when you are 1 or 2 laps down.. The reason being because if you take him out it's all on you.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

They cant give MV his win because that would be a punishment for Hamiltons performance. Something like that never happens, at least not that I have seen in any FIA raceclass.
The 10 sec penalty is the 2nd heaviest penalty they could give within the F1 penalty system. Disqualifying would be the other option. And its not only the 10sec stop/go he got, Ocon also got 3 penalty points. Not that that matters as he's probably gone in next season, but otherwise thats also a penalty most drivers dont like. If it was up to me Ocon should have been disqualified because the penalties he got didnt really hurt him because of the position that he's in (assuming he wont return in F1 next year), but then again, the punishment for a fault should be determined by the fault thats made, not by how it effects the perpetrator in sports.

Read Whitings comment. Ocon is not allowed to hinder the race leader. One may unlap, but not in a fighting manner.


Of course it was bad taste. He may unlap himself but not by means of hindering the race leader. When he saw that his unlapattempt failed at the straight he should have backed off and wait for another oppertunity.
Not trying to get the inside line to the next corner.
I dont understand why this is so difficult to understand. He's a lap behind. He had no business in interfering or hindering the race leader. Thats the rule.
If he wanted to unlap himself, he should have taken care of that on the straight, like he attempted. But that failed. So then wait for another suitable attempt instead of driving your car in the side of another car. The race leader doesn't have to yield, the lesser driver has to. It all fits in the system of blue flags etc.
Or would you rather have the racing system again from the era before blue flags?
I can mention loads of drivers back then that were feared to be overtaken when lapped .... I dont think that was a better system back then from a sporting pov.


Pretty much if you're not smart enough to understand Whitings view. But thats basically what you're saying, that you know things better than him.
They didnt punish Verstappen because he did nothing wrong (at least not on the track, I'm not talking about his behaviour in the pits). If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about the F1 rules apparantly. Or in your view: you understand better than Whiting how the rules work (that he himself probably made, seeing how long he has been in F1)

I’m not sure why this is getting personal with insults etc. It’s about a car race.

MV would not of been hindered had he not fought back in the first corner to begin with.

I was kidding about giving the win to MV and of course it has never happened when it comes to something like this. Hence why most of these “punishments” are meaningless.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Let us hope Ocon is not in Miami !

[minn19]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

Let us hope Ocon is not in Miami !

That actually looks pretty cool.

Why shouldn't Ocon be there? So we don't see the worst pushing/slap fight ever?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by minn19

That actually looks pretty cool.

Why shouldn't Ocon be there? So we don't see the worst pushing/slap fight ever?

Yeah . That's because Max is really cool !

Because Ocon would not survive the fight (part 2) in Miami

Max drove in 2009 , 50 kart races and won 49 races . And he was worldchampion with manual gearbox and automatic gearbox .

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Pretty much if you're not smart enough to understand Whitings view. But thats basically what you're saying, that you know things better than him.
They didnt punish Verstappen because he did nothing wrong (at least not on the track, I'm not talking about his behaviour in the pits). If you don't understand that, you don't understand anything about the F1 rules apparantly. Or in your view: you understand better than Whiting how the rules work (that he himself probably made, seeing how long he has been in F1)

Alright, since you're so smart...direct me to where I stated that the punishment given to Ocon was incorrect? Then, direct me to where I stated Verstappen should've been punished for breaking any particular rules. Then, direct me to where I seem to propose that I know things better than Whiting.

After you fail at all of the above, your foot should be placed in your mouth. Of course it probably won't be and you will continue to project opinions onto me that I never stated or had, and will keep avoiding the simple question of whether Verstappen could've made a better decision for his race.

Oh well, you are just too intelligent to see that Whiting's review is about rules being followed, and is not relevant to optimal racing strategy and decision making of drivers.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

Alright, since you're so smart...direct me to where I stated that the punishment given to Ocon was incorrect?

Where in my quote do I say that you have said that Ocon's punishment was incorrect?
The quote you're giving is about me saying that Verstappen didnt get a punishment because his move was legit.

Ocon made the mistake, NOT Verstappen. Verstappen isnt the one that should recieve a punishment.

And that you think that Verstappen did made a mistake, or at least question my view that Verstappen wasn't at fault, that his move was legit, you say that right here (talking about Verstappen)

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

If they don't punish a given driver, no mistake can possibly have been made by that driver... This is what you are saying we should understand so easily, correct Guido?

Meaning that Verstappen did make a mistake. That his move was at fault but that he just wasn't punished for it. That's not how Whiting sees it.
Ocon had no legit reason interfering with Verstappen's driving line. He should have backed off when his overtake attempt failed at the straight. Instead he placed his car inbetween Verstappens car and the apex of T2, resulting in the crash. This is something you only do when you're fighting for the same spot, not when you're trailing a lap. Verstappen drove the racing line and Ocon should have yielded. But he didnt.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Where in my quote do I say that you have said that Ocon's punishment was incorrect?
The quote you're giving is about me saying that Verstappen didnt get a punishment because his move was legit.

Ocon made the mistake, NOT Verstappen. Verstappen isnt the one that should recieve a punishment.

And that you think that Verstappen did made a mistake, or at least question my view that Verstappen wasn't at fault, that his move was legit, you say that right here (talking about Verstappen)



Meaning that Verstappen did make a mistake. That his move was at fault but that he just wasn't punished for it. That's not how Whiting sees it.
Ocon had no legit reason interfering with Verstappen's driving line. He should have backed off when his overtake attempt failed at the straight. Instead he placed his car inbetween Verstappens car and the apex of T2, resulting in the crash. This is something you only do when you're fighting for the same spot, not when you're trailing a lap. Verstappen drove the racing line and Ocon should have yielded. But he didnt.

I give up. Bottom line is that Verstappen could've made a different choice (even with the erroneous action of Ocon) and won the race, but he did not. You can label that whatever you want...Right, wrong, mistake, destiny, fate, genius, Whiting said, etc.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by Bartledoo

I give up. Bottom line is that Verstappen could've made a different choice (even with the erroneous action of Ocon) and won the race, but he did not. You can label that whatever you want...Right, wrong, mistake, destiny, fate, genius, Whiting said, etc.

Yeah in hindsight everything is possible and really easy to win a race.
At the moment that Verstappen's car crashed with Ocon's car in T2, Verstappen obviously expected Ocon to brake and back off (as he should have, as the rules imply). But Ocon didnt. Its not that he thought: Ocon is driving there and I'm going to crash into him.
You act as if Verstappen is clairvoyant and knew on forehand Ocon was going to break the rules deliberately and not brake for that corner.

[Bartledoo]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Yeah in hindsight everything is possible and really easy to win a race.
At the moment that Verstappen's car crashed with Ocon's car in T2, Verstappen obviously expected Ocon to brake and back off (as he should have, as the rules imply). But Ocon didnt. Its not that he thought: Ocon is driving there and I'm going to crash into him.
You act as if Verstappen is clairvoyant and knew on forehand Ocon was going to break the rules deliberately and not brake for that corner.

You're right. Max had no idea that Ocon was racing him side-by-side after being ahead of him in the corner just 50ft prior.

[GuidoK]

Thats not what I'm saying.
There was enough room even between t1 and t2 for Ocon to brake and back down.
Instead Ocon decided not to.
I think that as a driver you cant anticipate on everything, especially if another driver decides to deliberately break the rules.


Otherwise: why would Verstappen deliberately drive into Ocon? Because thats what you're implying isnt it?
What has Verstappen to gain by that?!?

[minn19]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

Otherwise: why would Verstappen deliberately drive into Ocon? Because thats what you're implying isnt it?
What has Verstappen to gain by that?!?

He thought he was going to back down, Ocon obviously didn't and here we are. AFAIK he (MV) never said he didn't see him there.

[Fender150]

Ocon was definitely at fault, however i also echo
What hamilton told him post race.
His cockiness lost him the race, part of it is avoiding idiots on the race track. The more such mistakes he makes the lesser the chance of him being a champ

[OG Shark]

Ocon was in 14th place at the time... yes he absolutely has the right to unlap himself but he had no business trying to make the pass at that time. If he was so much faster like he was saying wait for the the next DRS zone and then make the pass cleanly. As a backmarker at no time should he ever put himself in a position to affect the outcome of the race like that.

That being said Verstappen could & should have 100% avoided this. You have to both be aware of each situation and also know how to handle it. Ocon means nothing at that point in the race. He doesn't have a seat next year & has zero to lose. Even though Ocon should not have attempted that pass Verstappen has nothing to lose by letting him through. If a backmarker is going to drive like that let him have his little moment and then cruise on to the race win. Go shake his hand afterwards and then show him what the trophy looks like.

And Ocon - seriously, waving for his mechanics to come help him when he got pushed a couple of times? I get it - its in his blood - but c'mon man have a little pride and stand up for yourself. Don't let someone push you like that and do nothing but put a clown face on and wave for people to come save you. I have a lot of respect for him as a person - we ran into him at our hotel during the USGP and it was awesome the way he interacted with my 5 year old son. To me how people in positions like that interact with children speaks volumes about their character & he made a couple of fans that day. Still don't let someone push you like that and do nothing. Not saying he had to go ape shit crazy on the guy but at least stop him.

FYI this is from a Verstappen apologist...

[wdb]

Amazing that this thread is still active.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by wdb

Amazing that this thread is still active.

Somewhat agreed, but isn’t there some ego involved in taking the time to post an unfunny meme about egos of others?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Poiseuille

so after all these replays, and several days to think it over, I find I can't decide. the conclusion "racing incident" seems inevitable. these are two uber-aggressive drivers, if they weren't they wouldn't be where they are. remember what Senna said about a driver who sees an opening and doesn't go for it?
anyway, I think this can be reduced to two points:
1. Ocon was not going to win that race
2. Max was going to win that race
so if you're Ocon you're thinking "I'm going for it, Max will never throw the race away for no gain". He might have unlapped himself.
if you're Max, you SHOULD have thought (imho) "I've raced this guy for 10 years, of course he'll go for that opening. I'll let him go then draft him for the next eight laps. He's faster on the straight than I am anyway and he has better tires". And Max would have won that race. Which is, after all, his job.
None of this, of course, takes into account the several milliseconds provided to make this decision not to mention our old friend The Red Mist.

so at the end of the day, this is a racing incident. assigning fault is pointless.
shit happens.

just my opinion.

Edit: inoculating myself now before ///M Power sees this post==> I'm Dutch.

I just found a picture , seems like it was done before and with more aggression.

Two F1 legends in action !

[GuidoK]

I bet that wasn't a quarrel about where one was a lap behind. (Senna and Schumacher usually had their moments a the racestarts)

A better comparison: 1982 germany: Piquet gets taken out by Salazar while lapping him (and leading the race).
Piquet goes crazy



Epic images....

[///M Power-Belgium]

With helmets on , the fight is not fair !

[Poiseuille]

and yet......
these two lads were able to bang wheels pretty much non-stop for three and a half laps and both finished the race: Villeneuve 2nd, Arnoux 3rd.
this race happened 20 years before Poiseuille Jr. was born but he has this picture on his dorm room wall...and rightly so i think.
.

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium

With helmets on , the fight is not fair !

old NASCAR rule: "never take your helmet off unless you need to throw it at somebody else's race car"

[Poiseuille]

Originally Posted by GuidoK

I bet that wasn't a quarrel about where one was a lap behind. (Senna and Schumacher usually had their moments a the racestarts)

A better comparison: 1982 germany: Piquet gets taken out by Salazar while lapping him (and leading the race).
Piquet goes crazy



Epic images....

ya gotta like a guy that gets both feet off the ground throwing a right