[AlpineBoost]

StickyPickle Here's the page from C&D. I'm with you though, the info I see online from them shows 3.9 to 60 for the '19 M2C (rollout not mentioned) and 3.9 to 60 for the '20 CS, both 6MT, with the Comp doing the quarter in 12.4 @ 114 mph

[KevinC]

Originally Posted by bromudez

I’ve stopped reading Camisa ever since … well … last week, when he didn’t publish a conclusion that aligned with my G87 bias

How dare this dude choose the slower, outgoing model

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by AlpineBoost

I actually find a lot of positive in what Jason is saying for what I want in a car that will be primarily used as a daily driver.

I noticed this as well.

[bromudez]

Originally Posted by m2ss

I noticed this as well.

Basically all of the reviewers who picked the F87 gave a lot of praise for the G87 especially as a daily driver / cruiser or as a stoplight rocket. It’s a compelling proposition for most people. I love my F87 (and yea, I think it looks way better) but I too will be buying a G87 at some point.

So it’s strange to me that some get so upset over this. Reviewers are allowed to pick the older car. There’s plenty of criteria for liking a car besides performance stats. And yet there’s people here whining almost comparing Camisa to a flat earther 😂

[npirnia]

Originally Posted by bromudez

Basically all of the reviewers who picked the F87 gave a lot of praise for the G87 especially as a daily driver / cruiser or as a stoplight rocket. ItÂ’s a compelling proposition for most people. I love my F87 (and yea, I think it looks way better) but I too will be buying a G87 at some point.

So itÂ’s strange to me that some get so upset over this. Reviewers are allowed to pick the older car. ThereÂ’s plenty of criteria for liking a car besides performance stats. And yet thereÂ’s people here whining almost comparing Camisa to a flat earther 😂

I totally agree! I think the G87 will be an excellent car, but some of the dynamic magic was lost in the process of optimization. I don't have much time driving the F87, but my sense from what I recall and others have said is that the F87 required a bit of effort to make the front end and rear work harmoniously. Also, it felt like it had just a tad too much power for its chassis so oversteer management was a real consideration. These happen to be the kind of subtle flaws that drivers love and makes the car endearing.

With the G87, its M3/4 sourced chassis can absolutely handle everything that the S58 can output and the handling is more neutral with impressive rear traction. These happen to be material improvements that take away an enthusiasts favorite tasks...

No doubt the G87 will generate effortless and impressive pace on a backroad, but some would prefer some effort under those conditions. Still, these traits do make the car more trustworthy and a better daily driver, but I don't see the G87 being a slam dunk as a "special car" like the F87 could be (I think there are better "special cars" for the F87's price, but it was a contender).

But for the vast majority of customers (including me), the G87 will deliver what people want and will be a very flexible car that is still entertaining for "point A to point A" drives.

However, I don't think the F87's personality is coming back in an LCI like TAG suggested. I can think of many examples where a car is released with leery handling characteristics (usually related to oversteer) like the AP1 S2000, 2001 C5 Z06, 2006 C6 Z06, early F80/82 M3/4 that gets dialed back or better sorted in later models. But I can't think of a single example where a car starts with very neutral handling and sharp responses where engineers later put in more oversteer or require more weight transfer to get the car to turn in. Most large corporations won't invest budget in something that worsens safety or decreases performance.

The G87 is an excellent car, but the F87 had traits (actually flaws, but good flaws) that some drivers will miss. Such is the automotive trend of the last 10-15 years!

Best,

Nick

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by bromudez

So it’s strange to me that some get so upset over this.

It shouldn't be.

[M2Cmtl]

I've come to understand that there are two types of car buyers. Some that want a perfect car and some that want a flawed car. Perfect cars are smooth, quiet, reliable, practical, predictable.

Flawed cars can be noisy, hard to drive, harsh or impractical or have useless features like a carbon strut brace.

To me perfect is boring and flawed is fun. I like fun cars. Its normal that when the new car tends more toward perfect that the "flawed" car lovers recoil and have a gut reaction to hate it. The F87 had a bunch of flaws.

In the end, this is still the most flawed car BMW can produce at this moment in time and we should accept that. Cars are just getting better and betterwith everything that brings.

[deneed4spd]

I watched a hagarty episode comparing 5BW to M5CS and Tesla S. That episode sums it up pretty well what many here are saying.

In the episode, the Tesla S destroyed m5 and BW in quarter mile. Hell the Tesla was a football field faster to the quarter than a BW. On the race track with Randy P driving (I’m assuming everyone can say he is a decent driver) the Tesla S beat both. But how many folks here would drive a Tesla over a m2? Many will say yes the Tesla is faster but it’s so sterile. It doesn’t have engagement. It’s just point a to point b. So the episode said for character get the BW. M5 was in between, faster but more sterile.

So let’s get back to the G87. It’s faster, better handling, but more sterile than the old F87. So depending on what floats your boat, depends on what u end up choosing. The reviewers drive so many cars, way more than all of us combined! I can see why some of them lean to character more than fast because at some point, it will all be fast. A future battery minivan will go 0-60 in < 3 secs and will handle curves amazing because weight is so low.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by deneed4spd

A future battery minivan will go 0-60 in < 3 secs and will handle curves amazing because weight is so low.

.

[seis-speed]

The beauty of being a car enthusiast is we can all like different things.

F87cs was a bit too distant for me and felt bigger/faster than I needed for the tight roads I drive on. I was surprised when people would like it over the 1M, but in the right environment I totally get it. Sounds like G87 has lots of power, is brand new and has a lot of capabilities, but might be a little more distant than the F87.

That is OK, that is why there are generations of cars E30, E36, E46, E92, F80, G80.....Pick your car generation that best suits you and your purposes for ownership. That is all part of the fun.

If a reviewer has a viewpoint now, it might change in the future as another generation comes along.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by M2Cmtl

To me perfect is boring and flawed is fun. I like fun cars. Its normal that when the new car tends more toward perfect that the "flawed" car lovers recoil and have a gut reaction to hate it. The F87 had a bunch of flaws.

I think this is a fine way to look at it. You can't really have fun on a Porsche at safe city speeds, so there's a valid argument that a BRZ is a more fun car on the streets.

However, I must note that it's HARD to make a flawed car perform "better," but it's easy to make a great car perform "worse." Put on crappy tires, and you can hoon it up.

[buckybadger]

He praised the G80.
As far as I know, his reviews make sense and are legit. I tend to agree with most of his stuff as compared to lot of other reviewers.

[Tarmac]

His video is a blockbuster movie quality. Top notch. Jason is the most car enthusiast than any of us here. Knowing car history in and out, not just Bmw but other brands as well, explaining it like a documentary series on netflix. Glad to have him in a car world, such a blessing. And his Deadpool kind of character is just so entertaining 🤣

Hagerty

[ourlee]

He was trying to justify a modded E-Golf > GTI, because an EV is faster in a straight line (LMFAO) my respect for him ends there.

Silly he was saying it’s better running around in the city. I agree (I own a GTI)

[ourlee]

But …. leaves a GTI for dead in traffic

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by FinalRenegade

Damn, do you drive your car for yourself or other people's acknowledgement? lol, name is incredibly fitting here...take a step back my guy, go enjoy your car

C'mon, you know that's not gonna work lol.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by 2manycars

Hey y'all,

Jason here. Thanks for all the commentary — 'cept those of you who hate me. :P

First of all, my personal car collection really doesn't have a bearing on reviewing new cars. I see yours'es points, but I'm not paid to review cars whether I like them personally. For the record, I hate a lot of cars that I give screamingly positive reviews for — and vice-versa. The question I answer is "does this car does what it says it will do on the box?" not "does Jason like it?"

I live in the SF Bay Area, and specifically in an area where roads are absolutely tiny and parking spots are even smaller. My e-Golf is too big to fit in half the parking spots here, so tiny cars work.

On the FWD EV: remember that I test cars for a living, which means I typically have a test car all the time. I don't actually need a daily-driver, but I do like to have a dinghy: something small that I can park in the city, or drive places where I wouldn't want to be in somebody else's $200k attention-getting brand-new car.

I have 9 other cars that require oil changes and maintenance, so an EV was an obvious choice — especially with HOV-lane access. And there was no way I was going to buy a penalty-box like a Bolt or a Leaf or even an i3.

The e-Golf is a GTI without turbo lag. It generates 1.07 g of ass-out skidpad grip thanks to sticky PS4Ses and a big 034 Motorsport rear bar. It leaves a GTI for dead in traffic, and is even quicker over bumpy-as-hell 1st and 2nd-gear twisties. Plus, it seats 5 or hauls refrigerators in a small footprint. No-brainer once you understand that.

Anyway, onto the G87.

I don't hate it. Dynamically it's a step forward. I don't think it's faster than the F87, but it puts power down much better. Still does the rear-end wiggle that we first felt in the E90 335i and E82 135i, but it doesn't break loose.

The UX is a nightmare. Sure you can get used to it, just like you can get used to Tinnitus. Doesn't make it good.

I'm really glad the M2 exists, so there's that. If I bought one, I'd probably enjoy it. But I have to point out that the last car did the "M2 Thing" better. It was (IMO) way better to look at, and it was unquestionably more fun to drive on a daily basis.

Was it a riot? No.

But it was fizzy and alive in a way that most modern BMWs aren't. Great engine, good steering, the right(ish) size, etc. It was a solid "good" as a daily... but became an unmitigated riot when you drove it at the limit, especially on a trac. (Like the Harris video pointed out.)

I'm sure the G87 will be just as good — if not better — when you're hooning it sideways. I didn't. I just... drove it. Around town, on some back roads, to the office. And there, it just feels like a... car.

A car with sand in the dampers, with great seats (despite the stupid scrotum-rest), with a decent manual, okay steering, meh visibility, a back seat I can't sit upright in, and a bunch of digital displays designed by blind people with no fingers who've never driven a car. Lane-keep that yanks the wheel right the F out of your hand (I was told by a very angry BMW that it's possible to turn this off permanently using a Profile), auto-blip that you have to turn off every time (see previous parenthesis), an engine that sounds just okay inside the car (it's absent at low revs, then harsh at the top of the tach), and an overall isolated experience (I was always going 15 mph quicker than I thought.)

Is it bad? Of course not. But pound for pound, in normal use, I think the old M2 did a better job at providing a special experience.

And that's why I brought up the GR86/BRZ. I've seen the "they're nothing special" comments but I couldn't disagree more. Measured by the numbers, they're indeed nothing special. But as an experience, they're unmatched.

If BMW's engineers spent time with cars like those — or CTRs, or even Porsche 911s — maybe they'd stop slapping "Ultimate Driving Machine" taglines on massively overweight luxury cars. The company is just conflicted — it wants to be a luxury brand, but keeps promising us that the experience will be there. It's just... not.

And the last M2 was the last BMW that had a personality at real-world speeds. Sadly, it, too, has become and M4. Super capable — kudos on that engineering and all, but... can we just have a little fun please?

End thread

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

I’m 80% through this thread and you’re literally unhinged. Stop making a car/object your identity.

And if you’re going to do that, do it on something better than a middling car like the M2.

I've been trying to tell him but he won't listen to me.

[m2ss]

.

[ronin13013]

We have so many people that don't even belong here. Have no interest in the platform. They come and spend PAGES trying to belittle guys that are genuinely interested. Spent good money on good tech. I like having a fanatic of our own. Love the way he pit bull attacks haters. The math on this thing is undeniable. Its a beast! So attack his username and ignore good logic. When I see dumb $hit I laugh and go for a ride. He chooses to get down in the mud sling back.

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

End thread

No not at all. He has an opinion. Ends nothing. He does not own the M2 or even drove it for any reasonable length of time. He matters why LOL. He doesnt.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ronin13013

We have so many people that don't even belong here. Have no interest in the platform. They come and spend PAGES trying to belittle guys that are genuinely interested. Spent good money on good tech. I like having a fanatic of our own. Love the way he pit bull attacks haters. The math on this thing is undeniable. Its a beast! So attack his username and ignore good logic. When I see dumb $hit I laugh and go for a ride. He chooses to get down in the mud sling back.

"You're not allowed to be critical of something I like!"