[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by RobotDoctor

Problem with the government giving people their student loan back is that this is a false narrative. The government never gives anything for free.

No truer words have ever been spoken.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by ASAP

part of the problem is the propaganda that everyone was fed that they absolutely needed to go to college to have a job no matter what... so everyone is just supposed to get in debt to have a job they can't pay this off with?

That college is the ONLY option is indeed propaganda. It's also not a guarantee for success.

The problem then becomes that young adults these days now think that not going to college is an easier path to success because they save time and money. In most cases, it's not. Those who did not go to college and are successful most likely put in a lot of hard work, were focused and goal oriented to an extent, or was at the right place at the right time and had the initiative to take advantage of it.

Many of these young adults entering the workforce post High School don't share those characteristics, yet are surprised when they don't get the same results.

However, I do agree, college is way to expensive now. Shit, even high school is too expensive now. My HS alma mater, which was a private school, is $20k a year now. $80k to graduate High School. That's more than my college cost at the time.

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by ASAP

part of the problem is the propaganda that everyone was fed that they absolutely needed to go to college to have a job no matter what... so everyone is just supposed to get in debt to have a job they can't pay this off with?

That's because there was a time when it was true, but that time has long passed.

Originally Posted by jmg

That college is the ONLY option is indeed propaganda. It's also not a guarantee for success.

Yes, and yes.

Originally Posted by jmg

The problem then becomes that young adults these days now think that not going to college is an easier path to success because they save time and money. In most cases, it's not. Those who did not go to college and are successful most likely put in a lot of hard work, were focused and goal oriented to an extent, or was at the right place at the right time and had the initiative to take advantage of it.

Many of these young adults entering the workforce post High School don't share those characteristics, yet are surprised when they don't get the same results.

However, I do agree, college is way to expensive now. Shit, even high school is too expensive now. My HS alma mater, which was a private school, is $20k a year now. $80k to graduate High School. That's more than my college cost at the time.

Amen. I think it's our age that puts us in this category of understanding. I feel sorry for the kids growing up in this age, it takes willpower not forged by fire.

[fcman]

Originally Posted by plutnicki

I would say the big difference is that no bank will give an 18 year old with no job a mortgage, or a loan for a $100k car, and yet they can get financed to get a $150k loan to become a teacher making $30 - $40k/year or worse. It just doesn't make sense to me.

I don't believe in forgiveness either, but going through this process with my youngest (luckily he won't need loans), I can see how poorly the process is managed and how poorly the kids are counseled. I can see how kids get taken advantage of, particularly if they don't have strong support, which not all do.

Keep in mind you can sign for a loan at 17 as well. I have no debt but I’m not opposed to some forgiveness.

But really the lending is the problem. We need to stop handing out money so easily and letting educational institutions get greedy and bloated with useless staff. It’s absurd how much universities charge these days because they know there’s just easy money flying around

[tturedraider]

I’m just going to post this again separately for clarity. It is indeed a myth that college is a must to be successful and have a well paying job. While it is true that a fairly large percentage of U.S. young people start college only about 1/3 actually graduate with at least a bachelor’s degree. 2/3 of the adult population in the U.S. does not have a college degree. For many years it was very stable at 27%. It has only increased over the last number of years. I’m fairly convinced a lot of that increase is due to colleges pushing people through and graduating folks who wouldn’t have graduated in the past. That’s my opinion. I have no data backing that up. It just seems odd to me that after being steady at around 27% for many years the graduation rate has increased by 6% in just a few years. I think that change occurred over a ten year period or possibly less.

Prior to World War II only about 5% of Americans had at least a bachelor’s degree. The GI Bill was the beginning of the change. In 1938 160,000 Americans had a college degree. By 1950 that number had increased to 500,000. I found an interesting little factoid from the University of Texas. In the fall of 1945 their enrollment was 7,027. In the fall of 1946 their enrollment was 17,108. 10,849 of those students were veterans.

In 1945 88,000 veterans were enrolled in the GI Bill. In 1946 over 1 million were enrolled and by 1950 over 14 million were enrolled. World War II and the GI Bill were game changers for college enrollment in the U.S.

Personally, I think the popularity of college sports, football in particular, leads many to believe a lot more folks are college graduates than actually are. During college football season it seems like everyone is a college student or an alumnus.

[UncleWede]

For full disclosure, you U.S. citizen's paid for my Master's degree in Systems Management from USC. I agreed to continue to serve in federal civil service twice as long as I was in school. IF I had left early, I would have been required to pay back a pro-rated amount.

I served for 19 years.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

It has only increased over the last number of years. I’m fairly convinced a lot of that increase is due to colleges pushing people through and graduating folks who wouldn’t have graduated in the past.
.
.
.
I think that change occurred over a ten year period or possibly less.

This coincides with the time frame where the feds started requiring colleges/universities to publish their 4-year and 6-year undergrad graduation rates, for both full disclosure to potential students but also for use in ranking schools. The increase is due to schools enhancing their retention efforts and outreach to students who didn't graduate on time, not a lowering the academic bar.....

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

...It is indeed a myth that college is a must to be successful and have a well paying job....

True dat! My salary was lowish 6 figures (our base salary was maxed-out at 179,900+ differentials) and I have nothing more than a semester of college. The FAA did a study years ago to find out who they should hire as ATCs because the washout rate is so high (was until they started diversity hiring; now they signoff almost anyone). They started with college grads. They had the same washout rate as everyone else. Seems being good at essays and tests didn't equate well with an ever changing environment.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by vreihen16

This coincides with the time frame where the feds started requiring colleges/universities to publish their 4-year and 6-year undergrad graduation rates, for both full disclosure to potential students but also for use in ranking schools. The increase is due to schools enhancing their retention efforts and outreach to students who didn't graduate on time, not a lowering the academic bar.....

My opinion was definitely formed based on anecdotal evidence. I just based it on the differences I see and experience with recent college graduates versus college graduates more from my time period.

[unluky]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

No schools are forcing anyone to take loans. It is a choice. Chew on that instead of making people into victims when they are making choices.

Agreed. I "delayed" college because I started a business in high school that I wanted to see through and then never went. I make a great living, have a great retirement nest egg, house paid off, all 3 cars paid off and debt free.

Now you want me to kick in for someone who spent 6 years getting a liberal arts degree and living off the loan without working the entire time? Nope.

Now - we want to start a become a teacher/cop/public defender/etc with X years of service and we pay your loans or something while being held to a GPG level and only in certain degrees? I'd be open for getting the ball rolling in that direction for people that serve the community. But an open check to have a great time for 4-8 years with no accountability? I'll never vote for that.

[zx10guy]

Then you have this which should make everyone sick:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/care...nt/ar-AA1fhNBv

As I said, there's a quick way to fix this mess. Pull back Federal backing of student loans and have these colleges/universities take on the mess they contributed to.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by unluky

Agreed. I "delayed" college because I started a business in high school that I wanted to see through and then never went. I make a great living, have a great retirement nest egg, house paid off, all 3 cars paid off and debt free.

Now you want me to kick in for someone who spent 6 years getting a liberal arts degree and living off the loan without working the entire time? Nope.

Now - we want to start a become a teacher/cop/public defender/etc with X years of service and we pay your loans or something while being held to a GPG level and only in certain degrees? I'd be open for getting the ball rolling in that direction for people that serve the community. But an open check to have a great time for 4-8 years with no accountability? I'll never vote for that.

Those kinds of programs exist in many places for students who choose those degrees and then work in that role for a designated period of time.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

the mere fact that people think loans should be forgiven is an unarguable point. they are breaking rules and promises in a form of liberation and righteousness. Theres no need to argue, a loan is a loan.

in america there is this lucid concept that you can be whatever you want to be and the same people who fuel this loan forgiveness would promote leaving a college 2 years in to do something else. their lack of discipline in the guise of righteousness is a perpetual cycle

you might as well close the thread.

[tturedraider]

Originally Posted by calle14

I've been in debt and it's tough. Both sides have a point. On one hand, when you borrow, there's an obligation to pay back. On the other, sometimes life throws curveballs and things don't go as planned. It's a complex issue, no black and white answers here.

I don’t think you understand the loan cancellation proposal that is the subject of this thread.

[F32Fleet]

I'd imagine an argument can be made that universities and lenders are predatory in their own ways

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by LivingInSalt

Reparations first. Then student loan debt.

Reparations are immoral.

[Eternal Vibration]

We are born into a society that favors idealism instead of realism. So many kids are forced to go to college through parental or societal influences. "you gotta do it" its the right thing to do . It will give you credibility and you need a degree or you will never get a job.

1) Most people use only a small percentage what they learned college in their after college jobs. For 4 years of stress and poor educational methods... If I only use 10% of what I learned over 4 years in my after college work...that is a pretty poor tradeoff.
2) Most people, do not go to college under their own will. They feel pressured by culture to go. People are almost always better off pursuing what they love directly than to go to college for it. There is so much information available... If you want to be a mechanic, go learn about mechanics, if you want to be a engineer, go learn about and practice engineering. Go and build a robot from scratch. That is 100% better engineering education than going to a lecture about robots. The same goes so for many other professions. Maybe, with the exception of the medical field.
3) College is a scam. Its part of a cultural, world culture, system that ultimately is part of a larger system of enslavement. You are born into a society that expects you to follow a certain path. That pathway is most often incompatible with the natural will of people and their heart's desire. We are forced to go to school from an early age, most of which were not fond of. Then high school. Then after 12 years of "Education" we were then "encouraged" to go to college...suffering the shame of society of we didnt go.
Behind revered as inferior, or a lesser class person. Not everybody is like this but this is common amongst many. How many 18 year old kids, if asked "do you want to spend thousands of dollars you don't have, get in major debt over 4 years and to go to a school that is more difficult, less forgiving, and at the end of it, you might use 10% of what you learned? Answer? Few would say yes. Even now I hate the idea of college, I hated it before I went, I hate it even more now since all that I expected was confirmed in excruciating detail.
1) go to college, done
2) go work for a corporation, done
3) find out that most corps are corrupt.

4) leave and start your own business based on your own personal passion and interests. Ahhh WIN!!!!

5) Find out a few years later the company you used to work for got sued 10Billion for polluting the very water you have been drinking for the past 10 years of your life...Ah, glad I decided not to be a part of that. Damn, am I gonna die? Yeah I will take a refund! Or a cancellation. What a waste of time and money. Better yet, pay me for those 4 years.

[tturedraider]

^^ you seem to be under the impression the majority of Americans are forced to go to college in one way or another and have at least a bachelor’s degree. About 2/3 of the adult population in the U.S. manages to find a job without the benefit of having a four year college degree. Only about 1/3 of the adult U.S. population attains at least a bachelor’s degree. I don’t disagree with you there is a lot of family and societal pressure to attend college, but the fact is the vast majority of Americans make it through life without a four year college degree.

I do think the popularity of college football in particular creates an impression during football season that every college aged person in the country is enrolled in one college or another.

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by tturedraider

^^ you seem to be under the impression the majority of Americans are forced to go to college in one way or another and have at least a bachelor’s degree. About 2/3 of the adult population in the U.S. manages to find a job without the benefit of having a four year college degree. Only about 1/3 of the adult U.S. population attains at least a bachelor’s degree. I don’t disagree with you there is a lot of family and societal pressure to attend college, but the fact is the vast majority of Americans make it through life without a four year college degree.

I do think the popularity of college football in particular creates an impression during football season that every college aged person in the country is enrolled in one college or another.

Read the job requirements for most jobs. Degree or X-years experience. How does one get experience if experience is required? The fallback is the degree, or, I guess, the military. Even when I graduated HS in 1974, college was expected of me. I lasted one semester and joined the Navy (neither of my parents went to college and my dad's twin was a Navy vet). Thankfully, the Navy (indirectly) gave me a very good career.

Take out a loan and be responsible to pay it back, no matter what the purpose. My daughter worked, saved her money and paid for her own Masters in Accounting. Granted, it took longer than the 4-years from college, but she is debt-free; well, except for the house she and her husband purchased. My son, on the other hand, decided he didn't need to pay his loan back and stuck us with it as I foolishly cosigned his "student" loan. Turns out it was a personal loan for student purposes. The paperwork I signed said student loan .

Not everybody should go to college (higher-level indoctrination centers) anyway. some, like me, aren't cut-out for it.

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by fcman

Keep in mind you can sign for a loan at 17 as well. I have no debt but I’m not opposed to some forgiveness.

But really the lending is the problem. We need to stop handing out money so easily and letting educational institutions get greedy and bloated with useless staff. It’s absurd how much universities charge these days because they know there’s just easy money flying around

That’s the core reason I believe the government should institute forgiveness and loan caps. People against it are in favor of punishing the student, but they are the victim caught in the middle of all of this.

State governments have decreased college funding for state institutions fully aware of the reality that the Feds allow them to shift the burden onto students. Colleges exploit the students knowing they have no real world experience to gauge the true cost of the debt and their earning potential.

Meanwhile, for those who manage to increase their earnings potential after graduating college, like I did, the government gets the benefit of extra tax revenue. Allowing the government to effectively double dip. Keep in mind, until the recent student loan payment freeze Trump put in place (that’s expired now) the Student Loan program was a profit generating program for the federal government.

That’s deeply unfair.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by LogicalApex

That’s the core reason I believe the government should institute forgiveness and loan caps. People against it are in favor of punishing the student, but they are the victim caught in the middle of all of this.

State governments have decreased college funding for state institutions fully aware of the reality that the Feds allow them to shift the burden onto students. Colleges exploit the students knowing they have no real world experience to gauge the true cost of the debt and their earning potential.

Meanwhile, for those who manage to increase their earnings potential after graduating college, like I did, the government gets the benefit of extra tax revenue. Allowing the government to effectively double dip. Keep in mind, until the recent student loan payment freeze Trump put in place (that’s expired now) the Student Loan program was a profit generating program for the federal government.

That’s deeply unfair.

How exactly is it a double dip?

[LogicalApex]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

How exactly is it a double dip?

Simple:

• Government profits off the loans via loan interest.
• Government also profits off the increase in lifetime earnings via increased tax revenue due to wage increases and reduced reliance on welfare programs.

Meanwhile, government bears unusually low risk since the loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy.

When you borrow for a mortgage the bank doesn't get to simultaneously charge you interest on the loan and tax you on the increased equity since you've owned the home...