[techwhiz1]

Originally Posted by fzr100098

I've heard some strange arguments for manual transmissions, but this probably takes the take

I love to drive - preferably on a lonely mountain road - whether I'm rowing or not is not a big deal

The fact the G8x manual trans struggles to handle > 500 rwhp is a problem though

It's not a HP thing it's a torque thing that causes the clutch to slip.

Upping HP is not a big deal. It's the torque that will kill the clutch.

[ednir98]

Originally Posted by fzr100098

modern autos are fantastic. Old school doesn't compete

It depends on the driver. I autocrossed my 6MT last weekend and beat 33 other cars in my class, many of which were faster on paper, automatic, awd, etc. That being said, I was also beat by 3 cars with 100-300 less horsepower than the G87.

I guess drag/street racing is different but I have no interest in either. Generally, "driver mods" are more important than transmission type or any car modification.

[DrewNewM2]

Originally Posted by fzr100098

I'm engaged while smacking down a Mustang during a highway roll

For a street car, roll on performance is #1 to me, not rowing or working a clutch. I understand the appeal of a GOOD manual trans (e.g. S2000) on a nice mountain road on a sunny day, but for everyday street driving (and especially in traffic) it makes no sense to me, modern autos are fantastic. Old school doesn't compete (and I'm old school on many things, like gold vs bitcoin haha)

I wouldn’t buy a G87 to do highway pulls unless you have unlock, tune, turbos, E85 etc because there are MANY cars that would be faster.

For a street car where street racing is illegal, traffic speeds are slow and max performance can never be realized, rowing gears is at least something that’s entertaining rather than just working the gas and brake pedals.

If you’re going for fastest times around a track then agreed an auto is the way.

[M_Power Rob]

Originally Posted by DrewNewM2

I wouldn’t buy a G87 to do highway pulls unless you have unlock, tune, turbos, E85 etc because there are MANY cars that would be faster.

For a street car where street racing is illegal, traffic speeds are slow and max performance can never be realized, rowing gears is at least something that’s entertaining rather than just working the gas and brake pedals.

If you’re going for fastest times around a track then agreed an auto is the way.

There will ALWAYS be a car faster than yours. These incessant threads with pitiful comments why the MT is better are pathetic. Question is, is it the subject or the poster...

[xtougher]

Originally Posted by fanofbmwe46

Less than 1% of cars on the road are manual. If I have a chance to get a manual sports car, it’s a no brainer.. do it.

Originally Posted by Trogster

I've been driving manuals for 50-years, and I must say that my M2 is one nice rower.

I plan to continue driving manuals until there's no other option.

I'm in a similar boat as this. I've always preferred to drive a manual transmission. So when it's getting about time to consider my car, my first filter is a manual transmission.

So as an example, I wouldn't have considered the M2 if it wasn't available in a manual transmission to begin with.

I will always consider manual transmissions first unless they are no longer avialable for purchase.

Oh, and I daily this car, so it wasn't just a weekend car or anything.

No regrets!

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

It's not a HP thing it's a torque thing that causes the clutch to slip.

Upping HP is not a big deal. It's the torque that will kill the clutch.

I have to be pedantic here and say that HP and Torque are the same physical effect, just measured differently.

It's more correct (and I know this is what you meant), to say that you can increase PEAK HP without increasing PEAK torque, because those peaks occur at different points in the RPM range.

As a result, you can increase power at the high end without needing to upgrade your clutch (which experiences the most stress below the high end).

(Again, I know you know this, I'm just adding some color for the less... mechanically aware readers.)

[Razor2010]

Hi, is the clutch the weak point, or is it the overall gearbox / mechanical gear strength, etc. that can't handle more torque? If it was just the clutch, I am sure they could have put a 'reasonable' amount of development funds in to upgrading the clutch and keeping the torque figures the same for the manual as the auto.

Cheers,
Ray

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by Razor2010

Hi, is the clutch the weak point, or is it the overall gearbox / mechanical gear strength, etc. that can't handle more torque? If it was just the clutch, I am sure they could have put a 'reasonable' amount of development funds in to upgrading the clutch and keeping the torque figures the same for the manual as the auto.

Cheers,
Ray

From a reliability and warranty perspective ZF set the manual transmission torque limit at 600Nm, so BMW isn’t going to go above that design limit, although tuned cars seem to handle higher torques without catastrophic failures.

[fzr100098]

Originally Posted by DrewNewM2

I wouldn’t buy a G87 to do highway pulls unless you have unlock, tune, turbos, E85 etc because there are MANY cars that would be faster.

Not really - a ZF 2025 M2 is going to run down 99% of the cars on the road unless you live in Miami or something

[GaoKS]

It appears I'm in the minority here. I'm not a fan of the MT in my G87. Love the car otherwise. 1-2 is jerky unless you baby the release and CDV doesn't help. Could just be me.. but I feel Honda and Porsche are miles better - Engagement, drivers feel and ease of driving, wise.

[SeanJP]

Originally Posted by fzr100098

I'm engaged while smacking down a Mustang during a highway roll

For a street car, roll on performance is #1 to me, not rowing or working a clutch. I understand the appeal of a GOOD manual trans (e.g. S2000) on a nice mountain road on a sunny day, but for everyday street driving (and especially in traffic) it makes no sense to me, modern autos are fantastic. Old school doesn't compete (and I'm old school on many things, like gold vs bitcoin haha)

Yeah, one's driving experience is subjective. I can see preferring an automatic if I'm daily driving my car in traffic, for example.

In the old days the manual cars were more fun and faster. I kind of miss those days. If the performance between both is close, I would go with manual. If I buy an M2, I'll get an automatic. But if I buy a Blackwing, it's going to be a manual.

[SeanJP]

Originally Posted by techwhiz1

It's not a HP thing it's a torque thing that causes the clutch to slip.

Upping HP is not a big deal. It's the torque that will kill the clutch.

Yep. You can up horsepower just be spinning the engine faster. It's torque that applies the stress.

[Razor2010]

Originally Posted by aerobod

From a reliability and warranty perspective ZF set the manual transmission torque limit at 600Nm, so BMW isn’t going to go above that design limit, although tuned cars seem to handle higher torques without catastrophic failures.

Right, so it is not as easy as upgrading the clutch and now can tune to 900 Nm+ and feel comfortable. It seems the actual mechanical gears are a weak point above 600 Nm. not just the clutch.

Does anyone have any youtube links to the manual with upgraded clutch (or without), running 800-900Nm+?

Cheers.

[DrewNewM2]

Originally Posted by fzr100098

Not really - a ZF 2025 M2 is going to run down 99% of the cars on the road unless you live in Miami or something

A stock G87? Not that fast. Tuned definitely quick.

[DrewNewM2]

Originally Posted by SeanJP

Yeah, one's driving experience is subjective. I can see preferring an automatic if I'm daily driving my car in traffic, for example.

In the old days the manual cars were more fun and faster. I kind of miss those days. If the performance between both is close, I would go with manual. If I buy an M2, I'll get an automatic. But if I buy a Blackwing, it's going to be a manual.

I’ve been driving manuals in and around NYC for over 30 years. I’m still in the old days and buy manual cars regardless of an extra 37 lb ft torque and realizing the edge modern autos have. For me it doesn’t make a difference because the car will be tuned whether it’s Dinan with warranty for starters, then Femto unlock and tune. Black wing is a beast. Tough decision but I would go BW manual over g87 auto just for the manual lol.

[BradMX5]

Originally Posted by SeanJP

Yeah, one's driving experience is subjective. I can see preferring an automatic if I'm daily driving my car in traffic, for example.

In the old days the manual cars were more fun and faster. I kind of miss those days. If the performance between both is close, I would go with manual. If I buy an M2, I'll get an automatic. But if I buy a Blackwing, it's going to be a manual.

Miata and GR86 manual is faster than their auto counterparts.
Not many cars like that anymore but it still exists.

[fzr100098]

Originally Posted by DrewNewM2

A stock G87? Not that fast. Tuned definitely quick.

Compared to what? Everything is relative

500 rwhp is very fast for a street car, sure there are faster cars but make up <1% of the cars on the road

Anyway the internet bench racing is silly because you're not driving a 911 turbo

[Razor2010]

Originally Posted by Razor2010

Right, so it is not as easy as upgrading the clutch and now can tune to 900 Nm+ and feel comfortable. It seems the actual mechanical gears are a weak point above 600 Nm. not just the clutch.

Does anyone have any youtube links to the manual with upgraded clutch (or without), running 800-900Nm+?

Cheers.

Anyone

[Bimmer Frank]

Originally Posted by Razor2010

Anyone

Your question actually got me curious about what the ZF8 can handle and I am a bit shocked to learn it can handle 1000nm!

For me personally though, I don't care. I'm buying a manual because I've always enjoyed using all 4 limbs and the additional connection that provides to the car.

I also love the styling of BMW (always have) and this car just spoke to me as soon I saw it being announced. The fact that it has the same drivetrain as the M3/M4 at a more affordable price point sealed the deal for me. The value proposition of this car is insane in my view. I'd be lying if I didn't admit I think the 473hp stock is just awesome too.

[Razor2010]

Originally Posted by Bimmer Frank

Your question actually got me curious about what the ZF8 can handle and I am a bit shocked to learn it can handle 1000nm!

For me personally though, I don't care. I'm buying a manual because I've always enjoyed using all 4 limbs and the additional connection that provides to the car.

I also love the styling of BMW (always have) and this car just spoke to me as soon I saw it being announced. The fact that it has the same drivetrain as the M3/M4 at a more affordable price point sealed the deal for me. The value proposition of this car is insane in my view. I'd be lying if I didn't admit I think the 473hp stock is just awesome too.

Agreed

[SeanJP]

Originally Posted by BradMX5

Miata and GR86 manual is faster than their auto counterparts.
Not many cars like that anymore but it still exists.

I didn't know that! Even if they weren't, I'd still get a manual on either of those cars. To me that's not even a choice. An auto on a small, zippy roadster is essentially missing the entire point.

[DrewNewM2]

Originally Posted by Razor2010

Anyone

You can find the vids or forum posts but There are plenty of tuned manual g80 making high HP and TQ. You can probably get away with 800nm or around 600 lb ft for a while if you baby it with a tune but eventually will need a clutch upgrade. I think the PTB clutch is rated to like 1100 nm or 800 lb ft which is somewhere over 700 wheel torque. Haven’t seen any other transmission issues besides slipping clutches.

At that power level, traction would be the biggest issue.