[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Also rumors of an M2 GC, according to Autocar.

That's pure fiction.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Poochie

If BMW felt there was that much of a discernible difference between the two transmissions, they wouldn't of replace the DCT with a ZF8, they obviously didn't..

The opposite of a manual transmission is the whatever automated option they offer.

You might be giving BMW too much credit.

In my humble opinion, it's cheaper and easier to deploy a single (auto) transmission across the entire brand. Could they put a revised or new DCT in the M cars? Of course...but it appears they don't want to spend the R&D to make that a reality.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Yes it does

That hasn't been my experience with the ZF, in any guise. It's slower and relatively dim-witted by comparison.

Will the masses like it? Sure. It's smooth - I will give it that...but yes, there is a tangible, tactile aspect of the engagement that has been removed, and that will be missed, by swapping out the DCT.

Just like, to some, the DCT is a step removed from the engagement / experience benefits associated with a manual transmission.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

You might be giving BMW too much credit.

In my humble opinion, it's cheaper and easier to deploy a single (auto) transmission across the entire brand. Could they put a revised or new DCT in the M cars? Of course...but it appears they don't want to spend the R&D to make that a reality.

BMW collects $2,900 for each DCT and for some strange reason, DCT fanatics doesn't hesitate to pay that, at all (I wouldn't, on sheer principle).

I sincerely doubt they'll lose much or any profit by replacing it a with a free ZF8, over any R&D cost for the DCT option.

I would say that the shift to ZF8 is writing on the wall that M cars will eventually become hybrid, some time within this next generation.

However, my point was that regardless of how you slice it, if a vehicle doesn't have a clutch pedal, IT IS NOT A MANUAL, The end.

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

That hasn't been my experience with the ZF, in any guise. It's slower and relatively dim-witted by comparison.

Will the masses like it? Sure. It's smooth - I will give it that...but yes, there is a tangible, tactile aspect of the engagement that has been removed, and that will be missed, by swapping out the DCT.

Just like, to some, the DCT is a step removed from the engagement / experience benefits associated with a manual transmission.

The tactile aspect of a DCT you're referring to is a side effect of a computer controlled clutch. It's not a feature.

If you want 100x the tactile feedback, get a manual. The difference between a DCT and an 8HP is academic.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

That's pure fiction.

Hope you're right, just sharing what I saw.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by Poochie

BMW collects $2,900 for each DCT and for some strange reason, DCT fanatics doesn't hesitate to pay that, at all (I wouldn't, on sheer principle).

I sincerely doubt they'll lose much or any profit by replacing it a with a free ZF8, over any R&D cost for the DCT option.

I would say that the shift to ZF8 is writing on the wall that M cars will eventually become hybrid, some time within this next generation.

However, my point was that regardless of how you slice it, if a vehicle doesn't have a clutch pedal, IT IS NOT A MANUAL, The end.

BMW made a bulk purchase of it that was the biggest in ZF history. This is to save money. Has nothing to do with M except increasing profitability of M cars. Shameful.

[Big boi m5]

Originally Posted by Poochie

If BMW felt there was that much of a discernible difference between the two transmissions, they wouldn't of replace the DCT with a ZF8, they obviously didn't..

The opposite of a manual transmission is the whatever automated option they offer.

BMW knows the average lease guy wants a smooth transmissjon in his $130k car not a bumpy shift. It just happens the ZF8 is much cheaper for them as well.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Poochie

However, my point was that regardless of how you slice it, if a vehicle doesn't have a clutch pedal, IT IS NOT A MANUAL, The end.

No shit?



I never said the DCT was a manual - however, I do think it provides an experience that is closer to that of a manual than what the ZF provides. And that, to me, is something one might expect to see in an M car.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

The tactile aspect of a DCT you're referring to is a side effect of a computer controlled clutch. It's not a feature.

If you want 100x the tactile feedback, get a manual. The difference between a DCT and an 8HP is academic.

I disagree, but that's cool too - that's the beauty of subjective comparisons.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

No shit?



I never said the DCT was a manual - however, I do think it provides an experience that is closer to that of a manual than what the ZF provides. And that, to me, is something one might expect to see in an M car.

That really wasn't directed at you, it was more of a broad statement on the subject of those that try to justify their choice of gearbox. Just accept what you have and don't try to be what its not. If you like the DCT, say it proudly and call it exactly what it is: an automatic with paddle shifters. Same as a ZF8 and many other automatic transmissions.

And yes, I did own a DCT before, it was a VW R32 with a DSG and it was anemic AF, even with its lighten-fast shifting. Couldn't wait to get rid of it. There is simply no replacement for that third pedal.

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

You might be giving BMW too much credit.

In my humble opinion, it's cheaper and easier to deploy a single (auto) transmission across the entire brand. Could they put a revised or new DCT in the M cars? Of course...but it appears they don't want to spend the R&D to make that a reality.

Dmboone is right as the decision to do away with DCT is due to cost savings and not because ZF8 is just as good. One less automatic, less cost. Not good for quality of new M cars.

[Poochie]

I hope they just drop in the S58 motor, as is, without possibly watering-down any of its mechanical components, for the lower tier/output vehicles, like the G87 M2.

I can't wait to get my hands on one, I feel like the turbo-charged, combustion motor has now plateaued in power output for the RWD & manual platform and this will be one of the last great all-round packages, before they bow-out and only offer all electric vehicles, in their line-up.

As a result, this one will be a keeper

https://www.motorauthority.com/news/...for-this-world

[upsidedownfunnel]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I hope they just drop in the S58 motor, as is, without watering-down any of its mechanical components, for the lower tier/output vehicles, like the G87 M2.

I can't wait to get my hands on one, I feel like the turbo-charged, combustion motor has now plateaued in power output for the RWD & manual platform and this will be one of the last great all-round packages, before they bow-out and only offer all electric vehicles, in their line-up.

As a result, this one will be a keeper

I doubt there will be much a difference mechanically between the S58 in the M2 and M4. Isn't the M2C S55 almost identical to the M4 S55? A simple tune would probably bring it to near parity. The work BMW has done in refining their turbo I6 from N54 > N55 > B58 has been impressive to say the least. I think there's a good chance they'll make at least one more, though.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

I doubt there will be much a difference mechanically between the S58 in the M2 and M4. Isn't the M2C S55 almost identical to the M4 S55? A simple tune would probably bring it to near parity. The work BMW has done in refining their turbo I6 from N54 > N55 > B58 has been impressive to say the least. I think there's a good chance they'll make at least one more, though.

Yes, the S55 is identical in mechanics, across the model ranges, with the exception of the ancillary water-injection system in the M4 GTS. I'm just a little worried that they might cut corners, but I more than likely have nothing to really be concern about.

Also, they're already in deep talks about hybridizing their fleet, so all-electric M cars are not too far, on the horizon. One would assume..

So this might possible be one of their last full ICE strait 6 motor.. Who knows :

[Tony]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Going from the excellent DCT to 8 speed torque converter auto in what is the purest M car of its range.

Abomination.

The ZF trans in my X3M40i is better than both DCT cars that I owned before it. Mitsubishi EVOX MR and an Audi S3. DCT trans are loud, clunky, and jerky in low speed situations. And it also didn't seem to shift faster.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by Tony

The ZF trans in my X3M40i is better than both DCT cars that I owned before it. Mitsubishi EVOX MR and an Audi S3. DCT trans are loud, clunky, and jerky in low speed situations. And it also didn't seem to shift faster.

Its only the first gear when driving slow, so put it in 2nd!

[dtla1]

Does anybody know if the exhaust will hang ridiculously low?

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dtla1

Does anybody know if the exhaust will hang ridiculously low?

Wait a sec, are you criticizing the new BMW design language (coffin kidneys, mega muffler aka cow udder, new logo) ?

[BMWILUVU]

The G87 will drive like an M. I am worried about what it might look like. BMW needs to fire its G-series designers.

[dtla1]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Wait a sec, are you criticizing the new BMW design language (coffin kidneys, mega muffler aka cow udder, new logo) ?

I just assumed they muffler was part of the ground effects aero package...

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

The G87 will drive like an M. I am worried about what it might look like. BMW needs to fire its G-series designers.

Rumor has it the G87 M2's grille dimensions will be similar to that of the M235i Grand Coup..

I could live with that..