[MPR]

CarPoor Thank you sir, planning on this one. Good?

Castrol Edge Euro 5W-30 A3/B4 European Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil, 5 Quarts https://a.co/d/1gCgnG5

[CarPoor]

Originally Posted by MPR

CarPoor Thank you sir, planning on this one. Good?

Castrol Edge Euro 5W-30 A3/B4 European Advanced Full Synthetic Motor Oil, 5 Quarts https://a.co/d/1gCgnG5

It is. I run this in my 21 JLU Rubicon and 20 BRZ track rat. Only caution might be LSPI for the B58. I don’t think this is an issue for the B58, but can’t say for sure for my confidence level so maybe others more knowledgeable will tell me to stop wringing my hands. Until then my safe bet is https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-Edge-...=AXJ4KCH6GCK2W.

[MPR]

Originally Posted by CarPoor

It is. I run this in my 21 JLU Rubicon and 20 BRZ track rat. Only caution might be LSPI for the B58. I don’t think this is an issue for the B58, but can’t say for sure for my confidence level so maybe others more knowledgeable will tell me to stop wringing my hands. Until then my safe bet is https://www.amazon.com/Castrol-Edge-...AXJ4KCH6GCK2W.

I don't see LSPI mentioned on the few oils I'm looking at, how do you determine which account for it? Is it baked into the BMW LL # specs?

Edit: I found that the oil I'm using now, LiquiMoly 0w20, does call it out and is part of LL17 FE+

"BMW Longlife-17 FE+ approval is intended specifically to reduce the risk of LSPI. LSPI stands for low speed pre-ignition."

[CarPoor]

Originally Posted by MPR

I don't see LSPI mentioned on the few oils I'm looking at, how do you determine which account for it? Is it baked into the BMW LL # specs?

I don’t think any of the BMW specs account for it, but I’m not certain. Maybe ll 17FE and 12FE do though. Theoretically ll 04 does by accident since it’s reduced SAPS. API SP does for at least w20 and w30 oils. As I understand stand it lspi can be provoked by higher calcium as you likely have with ACEA A/B spec oils and to an extent by engine design. ZDDP and molybdenum may/can quench lspi, but only a VOA can tell you all those levels and it’s still speculation as to limits and provocation or mitigation. From what I understand BMW and the other European makes we’re spared a lot of exposure to lspi issues and likely from engine design. It wasn’t long ago ll 01 5w30 was spec’d and used in the B58 so maybe the B58 isn’t prone to the issue. That said I have noted one recent voa of BMW branded 0w30 ll 01FE that showed saps metals in the api sp range so maybe BMW is showing some caution where that oil is spec’d. I’m just tempering my opinion because I don’t know enough to say for certain that an ACEA A/B spec oil like Castrol Edge Euro ACEA A3/B4 ll 01 won’t provoke an lspi event in our B58s. Being safe until I’m corrected by someone knowing better I’d feel better about an ACEA C3/ll 04 oil or ll 12FE oil. The latter being barely more protection than a ll 17FE oil.

[OriginalFake]

I need to educate myself on all this stuff. Sounds very interesting!

[MPR]

Originally Posted by OriginalFake

I need to educate myself on all this stuff. Sounds very interesting!

I wish it was simpler, I just hit an oil change interval mileage and want to do an oil change but can't decide on an oil. Tempted to go with LiquiMoly 0w20 again being it meets spec and I don't beat on my car much. At the same time, I'd prefer a 30 weight but can't find one that meets all of these things being pointed out.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by MPR

I don't see LSPI mentioned on the few oils I'm looking at, how do you determine which account for it? Is it baked into the BMW LL # specs?

Edit: I found that the oil I'm using now, LiquiMoly 0w20, does call it out and is part of LL17 FE+

"BMW Longlife-17 FE+ approval is intended specifically to reduce the risk of LSPI. LSPI stands for low speed pre-ignition."

LSPI is predominately an issue with very small displacement turbo engines. The B58 3.0 liter is not considered small displacement. Both the Castrol oils you're considering (LL01 and LL04) are designed for high pressure and high heat, so even if there was an LSPI event either oil is appropriate.

The big difference between the LL01 and the LL04 is the 04 provides improved protection for your cat and especially diesel particulate filters, while the 01 is a higher SAPS oil. Bottom line is BOTH oils will work fine for you.

I asked myself if I'd rather give my exhaust more protection, or if I'd rather give my engine more protection. That's why I went with the LL01. This decision was made even easier knowing I have a downpipe with a cell count nearly half of OEM, so clogging my cat with a LL01 oil this side of 500,000 miles is not a concern for me.

[danallxt]

LSPI Stuff since I see this thread recently evolved a bit into a LSPI discussion:

I would not say that LSPI (low speed pre-ignition) is only a concern for just “very small” displacement engines. This is a modern-day phenomenon with Gasoline direct injection turbo engines (GDI). The low speed in LSPI (which refers to the speed of the engine, not the speed of the vehicle) occurs in the 1200 to 2700 rpm range. This low speed pre-ignition is very violent and causes over pressurization of the combustion chamber that can lead to damage and failure of the piston, rings, valves, and other internal components.

The good folks at H2 motors GmbH tore down, analyzed, and rebuilt a destroyed B58 engine and their diagnosis was that LSPI was the cause. Its a German BMW specialized shop and they have a hour long (English subtitled) utube on the tear down etc. Very knowledgeable BMW folks. If interested you can likely find it searching on h2 GmbH B58, or email me and I can send a link, just to see it dismantled to some degree is interesting.

Understanding How GDI + Turbocharging Increases the Likelihood of LSPI
In addition to GDI (gasoline direct injection), turbocharging is another tool to improve engine efficiency and fuel usage. Turbocharging is sometimes referred to as a volumetric efficiency improver. Adding a volumetric efficiency increaser packs more air into the cylinder, resulting in smaller engines making more power and torque. Frequently turbocharging is coupled with GDI. By harnessing these two technologies, OEMs can use 6-cylinder engines where 8-cylinder engines were necessary in the past. Additionally, 4-cylinder engines using GDI and turbocharging have become the new normal for power and efficiency in many small to mid-size cars and SUVs. While there are many benefits to combining these technologies, it also creates the perfect storm for LSPI.

Part of the misunderstanding I suspect is that some of the stuff written about LSPI uses the term something like “with the move to smaller engines LSPI has become a problem”. It's the context of “smaller”.

When a smaller, turbocharged DI engine is used to replace a larger, conventional engine of the same power. However, the higher power density of these engines makes them prone to a phenomenon called low speed pre-ignition

(Chevron tech article)
There are theories on how specifically this occurs (LSPI) which I won't go into.

One of the most recent studies have shown that one of the main ingredients in the common detergent packages (calcium) can contribute to LSPI (there is a SAE article on this study). Calcium and magnesium sulfonate are the most commonly used detergent additives in motor oils. Although calcium had been favored for decades, industry research has shown fewer incidents of LSPI occurred by re-balancing detergent chemistry to reduce the level of calcium and increase the level of magnesium sulfonate in the additive package. Conversely, magnesium-based detergents do not seem to promote LSPI. (most of the above paragraph is from a Chevron tech article)

No, there is not or nor will be a LSPI rating for oil. Some of the newer oil classifications do have a test and standards for LSPI. Most of the newer oil classifications have recognized this problem and have attempted to address this in the classification standards.

Anything oil related standards or classifications for passenger cars can get confusing as you have 3 main different systems, the US uses the API (American Petroleum Institute) system, much of Euro uses ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Européens d'Automobiles) , and others use the ILSAC (International Lubricant Specification Advisory Committee) , and then on top of that you have auto manufactures with there own OEM specs (ie BMW ll12-fe) which overlay these other industry standards. It can get confusing. But apparently all 3 of these use the same ASTM D8291 standard test for the specific newer oil classifications as I have indicated below.

In the US the SN Plus (API) incorporates LSPI protection. The sequence IX engine test (ASTM D8291) measures average LSPI events in the test engine and specifies a 5 max events for the SN Plus category.
The ILSAC 5, and 6A/6B (newish) categories uses the same test described above (ASTM D8291) to address LSPI
ACEA (2021) A7/B7 and C6 categories included standards for LSPI performance using the above mentioned ASTM D8291.
General Motors included a LSPI test in the dexos1(gen2) specification which is marketed (Dexos is a GM OEM spec)

Other:
A low SAPS oil does not necessarily mean a “low” LSPI oil, apples and oranges, but an oil classification that includes low SAPS standards can include the LSPI standard in the classification, depends upon the specific classification (see above). The interesting stuff to look at is low SAPS and HTHS (high temperature/high shear) numbers. Maybe more on that later.

[MPR]

Liqui Moly 0w20 claims to not be susceptible to LSPI, thinking about going with that again. I don't beat on my motor so I should be fine. My BRZ is still running strong at 200K miles running nothing but 0w20 since 8 miles.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by danallxt

LSPI Stuff since I see this thread recently evolved a bit into a LSPI discussion:

I would not say that LSPI (low speed pre-ignition) is only a concern for just “very small” displacement engines.

I would also not say it's only a concern for very small engines, that's why I said it's predominately an issue. The following articles mention this...

• https://www.mightyautoparts.com/onth...otl-0121-lspi/
• https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/educa...-pre-ignition/
• https://www.hagerty.com/media/mainte...-turbo-engine/
• https://cartreatments.com/low-speed-pre-ignition/
• https://us.championlubes.com/en-us/n...cts-about-lspi
• https://www.motor.com/magazine-summa...-pre-ignition/
• https://knaufautomotive.com/lspi-engine-knocking/

Regarding the video you referenced - that motor already had its oil filter housing replaced twice, with one of the replacements due to a recall. This in turn leaves debris in the oiling system. They discuss LSPI, but don't know if that was ultimately the reason. Hard to really put your finger on that when there's a history of oil related issues on that customer's car.

The B58 (at least the one we have) is only 127 HP per liter. That's pretty mild, especially when you consider the likes of many 2.0 liter 4 cylinder cars out there putting down over 300 HP. High power, small liter is what LSPI likes to bully. And for what it's worth, Castrol states their entire motor oil range exceeds the ILSAC GR-6 standard, while Castrol Edge 5w30 A3/B4 Euro mentions its design for highly tuned 4 cylinder engines.

I think it's very safe to say the B58 is not known for LSPI issues.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by MPR

Liqui Moly 0w20 claims to not be susceptible to LSPI, thinking about going with that again. I don't beat on my motor so I should be fine. My BRZ is still running strong at 200K miles running nothing but 0w20 since 8 miles.

Sounds like a winner!

[danallxt]

I think it's very safe to say the B58 is not known for LSPI issues

.

I would dispute that based on the tear down and analysis the folks at H2 motors did. They clearly state based on the very specific nature of the damage that their conclusion is it is LSPI related. Why? the damage is confined to one cylinder only (rings), no bearing damage etc. The damage is characteristic of LSPI in that it is an pre-ignition explosion in ONE cylinder. I would tend to defer to the folks that work on these engines as to whether it could be a problem.

Good to hear about the Castrol oils, thanks.

I have no idea if the BMW spec oils (ll-12-fe or ll-17fe) include any LSPI standards as BMW does not seem to release any info on their specs. At least i can find no such info to make that determination.
BMW's own ll-12fe oil shows a ACEA c2 certification, which does not carry any LSPI test...perhaps BMW has their own criteria including LSPI but i have never seen it anywhere. Anyone having any BMW source info on that i would appreciate it.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by danallxt

.

I would dispute that based on the tear down and analysis the folks at H2 motors did. They clearly state based on the very specific nature of the damage that their conclusion is it is LSPI related.

Sure, that engine "may" have failed due to LSPI, but that in no way means the B58 is prone to LSPI issues/damage. When an engine is famous for a particular failure, it's very easy to find on Google. Example: Subaru STi and ringland failures.

We know that particular BMW was mildly tuned, but have no idea of the quality of fuel, which can be a huge contributor.

[danallxt]

Sure, that engine "may" have failed due to LSPI, but that in no way means the B58 is prone to LSPI issues/damage. When an engine is famous for a particular failure, it's very easy to find on Google. Example: Subaru STi and ringland failures.

I agree. I did not mean to imply that it is famous for that particular failure.
The question is....whether most boosted GDI engines have a propensity of LSPI events or just very small displacement engines. From what i can find it's more a matter of high cylinder pressure combined with direct gas injection, now there may likely be a threshold (or not) where the frequency of those events occur depend upon amount of boost or turbo psi combined with engine compression that results in a condition favorable for LSPI. Have not seen any studies on that.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by danallxt

I agree. I did not mean to imply that it is famous for that particular failure.
The question is....whether most boosted GDI engines have a propensity of LSPI events or just very small displacement engines. From what i can find it's more a matter of high cylinder pressure combined with direct gas injection, now there may likely be a threshold (or not) where the frequency of those events occur depend upon amount of boost or turbo psi combined with engine compression that results in a condition favorable for LSPI. Have not seen any studies on that.

I think the issue is power density - which we see much more today than we did a couple decades ago. Today we're seeing 1.6 liter turbo engines that pack a serious punch, in relation to their size. This power density leads to a lot of boost at low RPM to make up for the lack of torque that we take for granted in larger displacement motors...like ours. Granted, 3.0 liters isn't huge, but it's significant compared to 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engines that need a lot of low-end boost to accelerate from a low speed.

[danallxt]

At approx 21 minute mark in the utube referenced they discuss the damage and LSPI. Only work needed is replacement of one damaged piston and rings. But in the early part of the video they mention previously having another B58 engine in with a single damaged piston that they also suspect LSPI.

[XC3LLR8]

Originally Posted by danallxt

At approx 21 minute mark in the utube referenced they discuss the damage and LSPI. Only work needed is replacement of one damaged piston and rings. But in the early part of the video they mention previously having another B58 engine in with a single damaged piston that they also suspect LSPI.

Next time I'm at my dealership I may ask one of the techs if they've had any B58's come in as a result of LSPI. Curious to know how common it may be from a service center perspective.

[danallxt]

Originally Posted by XC3LLR8

Next time I'm at my dealership I may ask one of the techs if they've had any B58's come in as a result of LSPI. Curious to know how common it may be from a service center perspective.

My guess (and hope) its pretty rare. But....
Been reviewing a very exhaustive scientific paper on the subject published in Science Direct titled "Low speed pre-ignition and super-knock in boosted spark-ignition engines-A review". Ten co-authors and very extensive with 250 some references. Anyway one component i was wondering about...just how much boost or cylinder pressure makes a difference with GDI engines? and i found the following in that article:

The low-speed pre-ignition regime in a turbocharged engine is mainly concentrated at the 15-24 bar Brake Mean Effective Pressure (BMEP) and 1500–2000 rpm region. This region is attainable in commercial GDI engines

I ran the calculation for BMEP of our B58 engine and it comes in at 20.9, so it is within the range.
Keep in mind not all LSPI events result in damage, the ones that do this paper calls "super knock" and details how that occurs.

Anyway auto manufacturers have been concerned about this and as a result all the recent newish oil classification series include LSPI tests and thresholds using ASTM D8291.

In addition to the new GM / API specification, there are further specifications for engine oils that include an LSPI test:
Association / Manufacturer
Specification
API
SN PLUS / SP (introduction 05/2020)
ILSAC
GF-6A & GF-6B (introduction 05/2020)
GM
dexos1TM Gen 2
OPEL
OV 040 1547 / dexos1TMGen 2
MERCEDES BENZ
MB 229.5 / MB 229.51 / MB 229.52 / MB 229.6 / MB 229.71 (since 11/2018)
PSA
B71 2290 / B71 2312 / B71 2010

Note: a newer Dexos 1 gen3 also includes LSPI thresholds.
Also ACEA A7/B7 and C6 include LSPI.

What is conspicuous in it's absence above is any mention of BMW's spec oils. BMW is not very forward on what their specs are...i have found no BMW source data that reveals that info...the spec may or may not include LSPI, but the companion spec they show on the BMW bottle of BMW's ll-12fe oil includes the ACEA C2 classification...that classification does NOT have LSPI included....but BMW may/may not have an overiding spec...can't tell.

Me, for my next self change I'll choose an oil in one of the above listed LSPI spec oils in the viscosity range I'm desiring that is a full PAO oil (full syn).

[MPR]

If anyone begins making 5w30 LL-17 FE+ I'll make the switch, for now I'm being "safe" with the LM 0w20

[danallxt]

Originally Posted by MPR

If anyone begins making 5w30 LL-17 FE+ I'll make the switch, for now I'm being "safe" with the LM 0w20

Won't happen, only a 0w-20 can meet the LL-17fe specs

[CarPoor]

Originally Posted by danallxt

My guess (and hope) its pretty rare. But....
Been reviewing a very exhaustive scientific paper on the subject published in Science Direct titled "Low speed pre-ignition and super-knock in boosted spark-ignition engines-A review". Ten co-authors and very extensive with 250 some references. Anyway one component i was wondering about...just how much boost or cylinder pressure makes a difference with GDI engines? and i found the following in that article:

I ran the calculation for BMEP of our B58 engine and it comes in at 20.9, so it is within the range.
Keep in mind not all LSPI events result in damage, the ones that do this paper calls "super knock" and details how that occurs.

Anyway auto manufacturers have been concerned about this and as a result all the recent newish oil classification series include LSPI tests and thresholds using ASTM D8291.


Note: a newer Dexos 1 gen3 also includes LSPI thresholds.
Also ACEA A7/B7 and C6 include LSPI.

What is conspicuous in it's absence above is any mention of BMW's spec oils. BMW is not very forward on what their specs are...i have found no BMW source data that reveals that info...the spec may or may not include LSPI, but the companion spec they show on the BMW bottle of BMW's ll-12fe oil includes the ACEA C2 classification...that classification does NOT have LSPI included....but BMW may/may not have an overiding spec...can't tell.

Me, for my next self change I'll choose an oil in one of the above listed LSPI spec oils in the viscosity range I'm desiring that is a full PAO oil (full syn).

FWIW BMW LL 04 in its 2018 iteration eludes to lspi being a consideration in the spec. It’s a low reach though.

[CarPoor]

Originally Posted by danallxt

Won't happen, only a 0w-20 can meet the LL-17fe specs

Yup. LL 0w30 FE seems to be approved for most G42 M240’s though so might be a good alternative for a minor increase of MOFT.