[garageoverflow]

Originally Posted by M_Power Rob

Sorry, I should have clarified to "new" 911s. Many CPOs are will north of $100k (eliminating base models) which make it difficult to fathom cross shopping a car with a price difference of say $50k plus.

Nothing against Por-sha but I would spend the money just to drive the name and logo. Would never consider owning a Boxster or 718...and the 911 I would settle on (ok, poor choice of words) is well out of my price range (considering the cost of the car and mods I would want to add).

I think driving a GT4 Cayman or Boxster Spyder (98% the same as the GT4) might surprise you! They are insanely capable cars and are an absolute treat to drive.

Everyone likes what they like though, no disrespect

[robopp]

Originally Posted by garageoverflow

I think driving a GT4 Cayman or Boxster Spyder (98% the same as the GT4) might surprise you! They are insanely capable cars and are an absolute treat to drive.

Everyone likes what they like though, no disrespect

Agreed. Porsche cars are not just a badge. I’ve never felt so connected to a vehicle even just driving it around town - the manual shifter, clutch, steering, toss ability, sounds, etc. Porsche precision is what every manufacturer should strive for, but instead they just bloat up and water everything down.

Additionally, for people that like having a unique car the option lists are endless, which is pretty cool. Want leather wrapped everything including vent slats? No problem. Bespoke whatever? No problem.

[Ronin76]

Originally Posted by garageoverflow

I think driving a GT4 Cayman or Boxster Spyder (98% the same as the GT4) might surprise you! They are insanely capable cars and are an absolute treat to drive.

Everyone likes what they like though, no disrespect

I could be wrong but I think Rob was referring to the 4 pot 718. The GT4 and Spyder are the 4.0 liter. I would have been fine with an S (don’t mind the 4 pot) but even speccing those out its close to $100k.

[garageoverflow]

Originally Posted by robopp

Agreed. Porsche cars are not just a badge. I’ve never felt so connected to a vehicle even just driving it around town - the manual shifter, clutch, steering, toss ability, sounds, etc. Porsche precision is what every manufacturer should strive for, but instead they just bloat up and water everything down.

Additionally, for people that like having a unique car the option lists are endless, which is pretty cool. Want leather wrapped everything including vent slats? No problem. Bespoke whatever? No problem.

We started looking for an older Boxster for my wife when she wanted to get back into a manual car (she's a car nut too). Slippery slope and all that, we ended up test driving a 981 Spyder (2016 model year) and fell in love. It's primarily her car, but I absolutely love when I have the opportunity to drive it! Precision is right.

I DO think that Porsche has gone crazy with the pricing. I think they want to be compared to the higher cost brands, but I was a skeptic before and totally understand now.

Again, not bashing anyone for whatever they love. I have a 2009 C6 Z06 and a RHD imported Turbo MKIV Supra. I'm on here because the 2026 M2 in manual caught my eye, especially in Twilight Purple or Java Green, and I've had the Z06 for over 11 years. Maybe it's a little FOMO, but I definitely have the itch.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by garageoverflow

I DO think that Porsche has gone crazy with the pricing. I think they want to be compared to the higher cost brands, but I was a skeptic before and totally understand now.

its not an original thought, but my (and most peoples) objection to porsche is fivefold:

1) the way the organization treats buyers, allocations, and "used car owners";
2) the outrageous pricing across the board from new models to lightly used models, including the use of ADM and "buy this porsche watch if you want a new 911" tactics by dealers;
3) the direction of the new product roadmap being a thumb in the eye to anyone who wants anything thats not a PDK 911 or a cayenne. no one wants an electric cayman/boxster. no one wants an electric macan. and now the cars people DO want will be marked up even more in order to cover the losses on these vehicles whether they sell or not.
4) how porsche willingly defiles the graves of its past (Admittedly great) product portfolio to shill watered down mommy mobiles;
5) the generally insufferable legions of dentists and F500 middle managers who make up the majority of new buyers

ive done a HPDE in a tuned 996 turbo which, to this day, remains the only P car i would likely buy with my own money (i could settle for a 996 C4S as well, especially as those prices come back down to planet earth) but i wouldnt touch anything post 997 with a 10 foot pole.

[reallymarkedup]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

5) the generally insufferable legions of dentists and F500 middle managers who make up the majority of new buyers

I couldn't care less who else drives a car if it's a good car. The main reason you'll never see me behind the wheel of a 911 is because of the "path to ownership" you alluded to earlier in the same post. I simply don't have the pedigree to be allowed inside a dealership.

Otherwise hell ya, they're sick platforms.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by reallymarkedup

I couldn't care less who else drives a car if it's a good car. The main reason you'll never see me behind the wheel of a 911 is because of the "path to ownership" you alluded to earlier in the same post. I simply don't have the pedigree to be allowed inside a dealership.

Otherwise hell ya, they're sick platforms.

last one is a matter of opinion. yeah, it rubs me the wrong way that the porsches worth driving are holed up in bubbles collecting dust, and that ive never seen a late model 911 doing something on the street that a 2003 toyota solara couldnt do. and yeah, to me listening to an old guy at a car show prattle on about how the 993 is the last REAL porsche because it uses VDO gauges feels like a prison sentence.

im told some of this is local to the tri-state as well. YMMV

[garageoverflow]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

its not an original thought, but my (and most peoples) objection to porsche is fivefold:

1) the way the organization treats buyers, allocations, and "used car owners";
2) the outrageous pricing across the board from new models to lightly used models, including the use of ADM and "buy this porsche watch if you want a new 911" tactics by dealers;
3) the direction of the new product roadmap being a thumb in the eye to anyone who wants anything thats not a PDK 911 or a cayenne. no one wants an electric cayman/boxster. no one wants an electric macan. and now the cars people DO want will be marked up even more in order to cover the losses on these vehicles whether they sell or not.
4) how porsche willingly defiles the graves of its past (Admittedly great) product portfolio to shill watered down mommy mobiles;
5) the generally insufferable legions of dentists and F500 middle managers who make up the majority of new buyers

ive done a HPDE in a tuned 996 turbo which, to this day, remains the only P car i would likely buy with my own money (i could settle for a 996 C4S as well, especially as those prices come back down to planet earth) but i wouldnt touch anything post 997 with a 10 foot pole.

Actually agreed on basically all of this. Porsche is incredibly frustrating.

We purchased her 981 Spyder used (and she actually puts miles on it and enjoys it). Our local service advisor adores the car, so they have definitely taken care of us, despite us buying the car out of state.

It might be the only P car we buy because of the reasons you listed above.
Still a hell of a car and a lot of fun. I'm also super lucky that my wife is a crazy car person too. She insists on a manual and probably has the coolest car in the garage

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by garageoverflow

Actually agreed on basically all of this. Porsche is incredibly frustrating.

We purchased her 981 Spyder used (and she actually puts miles on it and enjoys it). Our local service advisor adores the car, so they have definitely taken care of us, despite us buying the car out of state.

It might be the only P car we buy because of the reasons you listed above.
Still a hell of a car and a lot of fun. I'm also super lucky that my wife is a crazy car person too. She insists on a manual and probably has the coolest car in the garage

i have no doubt its plenty of fun, and i'd be over the moon if my wife wanted a 981 spyder and would put a used one in the driveway the next day (so she didnt have enough time to change her mind )

im sure the GT cars post 997 are fun and charming, but at a certain point it doesnt matter how much incrementally better they are than an AMG GT, or an R8, or an LC500 it is, a growing number of enthusiasts are unwilling to deal with the baggage of porsche the brand. which is frustrating because they've made some great cars.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

its not an original thought, but my (and most peoples) objection to porsche is fivefold:

1) the way the organization treats buyers, allocations, and "used car owners";
2) the outrageous pricing across the board from new models to lightly used models, including the use of ADM and "buy this porsche watch if you want a new 911" tactics by dealers;
3) the direction of the new product roadmap being a thumb in the eye to anyone who wants anything thats not a PDK 911 or a cayenne. no one wants an electric cayman/boxster. no one wants an electric macan. and now the cars people DO want will be marked up even more in order to cover the losses on these vehicles whether they sell or not.
4) how porsche willingly defiles the graves of its past (Admittedly great) product portfolio to shill watered down mommy mobiles;
5) the generally insufferable legions of dentists and F500 middle managers who make up the majority of new buyers

ive done a HPDE in a tuned 996 turbo which, to this day, remains the only P car i would likely buy with my own money (i could settle for a 996 C4S as well, especially as those prices come back down to planet earth) but i wouldnt touch anything post 997 with a 10 foot pole.

1 - your issues here is with the dealers. BMW is no different with ADMs, forcing someone to finance with a jack up rate, etc
2 - Again, BMW or any auto manufacturer is no different. Maybe not as drastic, but Porsche wants a cut of the ADMs dealers were getting and this is one way to do it. Wait lists are still very long even for non-GT cars.
3 - The 992.2 GTS is technology straight from F1. What Porsche has done with the .2 911 is what all manufacturers should strive for. Unlike BMW’s ‘technological advances’ of throwing massive batteries and EV motors at the new M5 that has worse performance than the outgoing model. That’s just half assed (maybe even quarter assed) and lazy.
4 - This is exactly what BMW has done too.
5 - I’m no dentist or F500 middle manager and have yet to meet one. The G87 stereotype isn’t great either, but honestly who cares? Buy the car YOU want and can afford.


Wouldn’t touch a 997+ with a 10 foot pole? Aka you can’t afford one, or you’ve never driven one because I guarantee you’ll never look at your G87 the same way after.

[JMcLellan]

I was on my way to pick up my kiddos from their school open house and a guy in a 991.2 Carrera S was wanting to play. That would have been a fun match. I did cross shop 991.2's but my budget ($75K or less) would have only allowed a base carrera and then I would have been really wanting the S the whole time.

The only Porsche I have ever driven was a GT3 RS and holy crap I want one.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by robopp

1 - your issues here is with the dealers. BMW is no different with ADMs, forcing someone to finance with a jack up rate, etc
2 - Again, BMW or any auto manufacturer is no different. Maybe not as drastic, but Porsche wants a cut of the ADMs dealers were getting and this is one way to do it. Wait lists are still very long even for non-GT cars.
3 - The 992.2 GTS is technology straight from F1. What Porsche has done with the .2 911 is what all manufacturers should strive for. Unlike BMW’s ‘technological advances’ of throwing massive batteries and EV motors at the new M5 that has worse performance than the outgoing model. That’s just half assed (maybe even quarter assed) and lazy.
4 - This is exactly what BMW has done too.
5 - I’m no dentist or F500 middle manager and have yet to meet one. The G87 stereotype isn’t great either, but honestly who cares? Buy the car YOU want and can afford.


Wouldn’t touch a 997+ with a 10 foot pole? Aka you can’t afford one, or you’ve never driven one because I guarantee you’ll never look at your G87 the same way after.

1- lots of companies have done this now and then. no one but porsche consistently on every model people actually want.
2- i have never even heard of a dealer outside of porsche doing something as ridiculous as making people buy a porsche design watch to get a car at a certain price (example below). find me another example of any make doing this beyond super/hypercar brands.
3- im no BMW fanboy. i am just an enthusiast who calls a spade a spade. porsches roadmap is dismal and frankly a bit depressing.
4- you are not wrong. look at the new M5. its disgraceful.
5- perception is reality. theres not enough G87s on the road i think to have garnered any real "stereotype" yet to most people. i recognize that this is a matter of opinion but can be a tipping point when a car is dead even or maybe only a little incrementally better than something else to me. YMMV.

yep, wouldnt touch one. dont want one. could i have a 200k car in my garage if i decided? totally. but it wouldnt be a GT car (and admittedly my only experience with a GT car is a 997.1 GT3 that was cool but not for what i know was paid for it). much rather spend my money on an NC2 NSX, AMG GT R, V10 R8, etc etc. i dont attach my automotive enthusiasm to a particular brand and never have. i understand that you stan for P-cars as the end all be all of performance cars and thats fine, but JFYI, using "maybe you are just poor" as an ad hominem on a BMW forum is a bit crass. im glad you to have you dissent from my admittedly hot take but cmon man this isnt temple of vtec (no offense to any hondaheads here).

[ourlee]

I really want a 718s but FFS it’s $95k. I gotta pass. And the only thing keeping a 200k out of my garage is my wife, so there’s that.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

1- lots of companies have done this now and then. no one but porsche consistently on every model people actually want.
2- i have never even heard of a dealer outside of porsche doing something as ridiculous as making people buy a porsche design watch to get a car at a certain price (example below). find me another example of any make doing this beyond super/hypercar brands.
3- im no BMW fanboy. i am just an enthusiast who calls a spade a spade. porsches roadmap is dismal and frankly a bit depressing.
4- you are not wrong. look at the new M5. its disgraceful.
5- perception is reality. theres not enough G87s on the road i think to have garnered any real "stereotype" yet to most people. i recognize that this is a matter of opinion but can be a tipping point when a car is dead even or maybe only a little incrementally better than something else to me. YMMV.

yep, wouldnt touch one. dont want one. could i have a 200k car in my garage if i decided? totally. but it wouldnt be a GT car (and admittedly my only experience with a GT car is a 997.1 GT3 that was cool but not for what i know was paid for it). much rather spend my money on an NC2 NSX, AMG GT R, V10 R8, etc etc. i dont attach my automotive enthusiasm to a particular brand and never have. i understand that you stan for P-cars as the end all be all of performance cars and thats fine, but JFYI, using "maybe you are just poor" as an ad hominem on a BMW forum is a bit crass. im glad you to have you dissent from my admittedly hot take but cmon man this isnt temple of vtec (no offense to any hondaheads [...]

At least you’re getting something for the ADM and not just donating money to the dealership.
Your 10 foot pole comment comes off as very bitter hence the can’t afford it comment. I honestly can’t think of any car I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole, but I’m a car guy that doesn’t discriminate even if I can’t afford said car.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by robopp

At least you’re getting something for the ADM and not just donating money to the dealership.
Your 10 foot pole comment comes off as very bitter hence the can’t afford it comment. I honestly can’t think of any car I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole, but I’m a car guy that doesn’t discriminate even if I can’t afford said car.

i agree with your comments RE ADM and i think the act regardless of make is pretty despicable. theres valid criticisms to be leveled at every make, porsche included, and the ones i laid out aren't just pulled out of thin air.

i love cars (as i think we all do) and i can think of many i wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole for a number of reasons. 300ZX TT (nightmares to keep on the road), B5 S4 (same reason, more time in "customer wallet service position" than running), B8 RS5 (found it dreadfully dull for a 450 hp V8 coupe), anything ford Triton powered, etc.... lots of cars to love so you have to filter them somehow.

[NewToM]

You guys talking about buying $200K cars and here I am just hoping to find $2K for a midpipe and valve controller…

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by NewToM

You guys talking about buying $200K cars and here I am just hoping to find $2K for a midpipe and valve controller…

some days i miss scrounging up $200 for a catless DP on my WRB WRX waggy. thing was so rusty i could see the pavement when i was delivering pizzas

[robopp]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

i agree with your comments RE ADM and i think the act regardless of make is pretty despicable. theres valid criticisms to be leveled at every make, porsche included, and the ones i laid out aren't just pulled out of thin air.

i love cars (as i think we all do) and i can think of many i wouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole for a number of reasons. 300ZX TT (nightmares to keep on the road), B5 S4 (same reason, more time in "customer wallet service position" than running), B8 RS5 (found it dreadfully dull for a 450 hp V8 coupe), anything ford Triton powered, etc.... lots of cars to love so you have to filter them somehow.

Ugh, you’re talking dirty to me right now! 300ZX?! I’ve never owned one, but that was always a dream car and I’d love to own one if I could find one that wasn’t destroyed. I actually owned a B5 S4 (2001) and that was probably one of my favorite cars I’ve ever owned. 23 years later and it still looks really good.

I had an allocation for a RWD V10 R8, but passed because as good as the DSG is and that glorious V10, there’s no third pedal and I want to row my own

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by robopp

Ugh, you’re talking dirty to me right now! 300ZX?! I’ve never owned one, but that was always a dream car and I’d love to own one if I could find one that wasn’t destroyed. I actually owned a B5 S4 (2001) and that was probably one of my favorite cars I’ve ever owned. 23 years later and it still looks really good.

I had an allocation for a RWD V10 R8, but passed because as good as the DSG is and that glorious V10, there’s no third pedal and I want to row my own

i've got a 5 speed N/A Z32 300ZX right now, zero rust, second owner. great car and i just did 700 miles in a weekend with it to cape cod and back. bulletproof fun and all the looks of a TT (ive got the wider TT wheels on the back). if you are ever in southwest CT give me a shout and i'd be happy to let you check it out.

they did make 6 speed v10 R8s but obviously super rare.

[robopp]

Originally Posted by two_three_two

i've got a 5 speed N/A Z32 300ZX right now, zero rust, second owner. great car and i just did 700 miles in a weekend with it to cape cod and back. bulletproof fun and all the looks of a TT (ive got the wider TT wheels on the back). if you are ever in southwest CT give me a shout and i'd be happy to let you check it out.

they did make 6 speed v10 R8s but obviously super rare.

I was just on the Cape fishing the Canyons a few weeks ago. I appreciate the offer and I’d love to take you up on it sometime soon.
My allocation was for a new (2023) R8. I’ve been keeping an eye out for the elusive gated manual V10 R8, but you’re right - super rare which equals super expensive.

[two_three_two]

Originally Posted by robopp

I was just on the Cape fishing the Canyons a few weeks ago. I appreciate the offer and I’d love to take you up on it sometime soon.
My allocation was for a new (2023) R8. I’ve been keeping an eye out for the elusive gated manual V10 R8, but you’re right - super rare which equals super expensive.

absolutely. DM me any time.

[captain slowly]

Originally Posted by robopp

At least you’re getting something for the ADM and not just donating money to the dealership.
Your 10 foot pole comment comes off as very bitter hence the can’t afford it comment. I honestly can’t think of any car I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole, but I’m a car guy that doesn’t discriminate even if I can’t afford said car.

You come across as such a pompous apologist, it hurts.
First, you say if one dislikes Porsche, it's only because they can't afford it. I've owned a Cayman, and driven several 911s and guess what? I liked my Cayman better in every aspect, but I liked my old RS3 even more, which is what I traded the Cayman in for. I'm such a poor...
Second, you justify a Porsche dealer requiring a purchase of a $50 watch for $7500 in order to pay "only" MSRP for a garden variety 911 (not a GT3) by saying "at least you're getting something"? Wow...you deserve to be bent over.