[SteveinArizona]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Rumor has it the G87 M2's grille dimensions will be similar to that of the M235i Grand Coup..

I could live with that..

Not fond but I can live with that. But not with the Edsel grills.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Rumor has it the G87 M2's grille dimensions will be similar to that of the M235i Grand Coup.

It is best to ignore that rumor at this stage in the game. Autocar made the claim that the G42 will follow the styling of the F44. But it's an utterly baseless conclusion. The two are not likely to be any similar than any of today's BMW passenger cars are to one another. The G42 is a distinct model and it will be given its own identity. SCOTT has mentioned the 3.0 CSL Homage in the past as a possible hint of what to expect for the G42/G87. While that leaves a lot of room for interpretation, its likely to be a better first step at guessing what the G42 might look like than arbitrarily trying to bend the styling of the FWD FAAR based F44 onto the RWD CLAR platform. I mean that just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Sure, the grill might look like that, but it might look like a hundred other grills too. Certainly the rest of the car will not be proportioned anything like the F44, so why copy the grill? It's not a logical place to start the guesswork, and I believe in time you'll see Autocar renege on their prediction.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by dtla1

I just assumed they muffler was part of the ground effects aero package...

What about "M Purr-formance Parts Mega Muffler Technology" ?

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Tony

The ZF trans in my X3M40i is better than both DCT cars that I owned before it. Mitsubishi EVOX MR and an Audi S3. DCT trans are loud, clunky, and jerky in low speed situations. And it also didn't seem to shift faster.

M-DCT is not your average VW/JP transmission. It is the same transmission used in F458/F488. You need to shift manually to fully appreciate the mechanical excellence of this sport transmission.

[dtla1]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

M-DCT is not your average VW/JP transmission. It is the same transmission used in F458/F488. You need to shift manually to fully appreciate the mechanical excellence of this sport transmission.

Good to know I have a Ferrari used component in my 135i. Too bad I'm having temperature sensor issue that'll probably cost me a couple grand to replace.

[El Conquistador]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

M-DCT is not your average VW/JP transmission. It is the same transmission used in F458/F488. You need to shift manually to fully appreciate the mechanical excellence of this sport transmission.

So really fast, really unreliable and really expensive to repair.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

M-DCT is not your average VW/JP transmission. It is the same transmission used in F458/F488. You need to shift manually to fully appreciate the mechanical excellence of this sport transmission.

The reality is the average buyer will prefer the smoother operation of the ZF8. I haven't seen a single Supra review where anyone lamented it wasn't a DCT, in fact it's received a lot of praise. I have owned several DCT's going back to last decade and the ZF8 is considerably smoother than any of them and in sport+ mode isn't far off their performance. It's the smoothest automatic transmission I've ever driven which everyone will appreciate on those days where life gets in the way of race day. I was a bit of a ZF8 naysayer until I got the X3M and TBH after using this transmission I'm a believer in the hype as it's really good.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

The reality is the average buyer will prefer the smoother operation of the ZF8. I haven't seen a single Supra review where anyone lamented it wasn't a DCT, in fact it's received a lot of praise. I have owned several DCT's going back to last decade and the ZF8 is considerably smoother than any of them and in sport+ mode isn't far off their performance. It's the smoothest automatic transmission I've ever driven which everyone will appreciate on those days where life gets in the way of race day. I was a bit of a ZF8 naysayer until I got the X3M and TBH after using this transmission I'm a believer in the hype as it's really good.

I know the latest iteration of the ZF8 has silky smooth, seamless shifting and it maintains boost pressure during gear changes, so there is no loss in power, in that transition. It does have its charm and is something I could live with, if I didn't have a choice of a manual.

However, is it just me or did the ZF8 used to, by design, bang gears, where there would be a surge and jolt, at every gear change, in Sport and Sport+ but now they seem to eliminate that jarring sensation.

Seems kind of counter-productive for the latest ZF8s, if their ultimate goal is to make it appear sporty and feel more manual-like.

I guess my question is, does your X3M bang gears, in Sport+, during rapid gear changes like it use to?

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Poochie

If BMW felt there was that much of a discernible difference between the two transmissions, they wouldn't of replace the DCT with a ZF8, they obviously didn't..

The opposite of a manual transmission is the whatever automated option they offer.

BMW, however, doesn't share your opinion that DCT is a typical "automatic" gearbox.

Go to Realoem (a long standing website shared by BMW's interal parts system), choose F82 M4 and see which transmission options pop up. It is internally labeled as "Dual Clutch Transmission", not as "Automatic transmission" of F90 M5.

DCT, with its two operating clutches respectively for even and odd # gears, is mechanically much closer to a manual transmission. It is essentially a slightly less reliable sequential manual transmission used in race cars.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

BMW, however, doesn't share your opinion that DCT is a typical "automatic" gearbox.
Go to Realoem (a long standing website shared by BMW's interal parts system), choose F82 M4 and see which transmission options pop up. It is internally labeled as "Dual Clutch Transmission", not as "Automatic transmission" of F90 M5.
DCT, with its two operating clutches respectively for even and odd # gears, is mechanically much closer to a manual transmission. It is essentially a slightly less reliable sequential manual transmission used in race cars.

Poochie, kyrix1st is right.

Of course it would make sense to have 'the pedal count' as criterion (2 = automatic | 3 = manual) or the type of gear shifting (digital/electronic = automatic | mechanical = manual) or, simply, the possibility of automatic gear shifting (present = automatic | absent = manual). But for BMW, the torque convertor is the criterion (present = automatic | absent = manual).

M-DCT (code 2MK/S2MK/S2MKA in VIN specs | "M twin-clutch transm. with Drivelogic" | "M Doppelkupplungsgetriebe mit Drivelogic")
= no torque convertor = manual transmission in BMW's book.

Therefore, "MANUAL"/"HECK" (instead of "AUT") is indicated in VIN specs of any F87 M2. See also for example here.

See what is said from 01:12 onwards:

See also here from 01:55 onwards:

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Poochie, kyrix1st is right.

Of course it would make sense to have 'the pedal count' as criterion (2 = automatic | 3 = manual) or the type of gear shifting (digital/electronic = automatic | mechanical = manual) or, simply, the possibility of automatic shifting (present = automatic | absent = manual). But for BMW, the torque convertor is the criterion (present = automatic | absent = manual).

M-DCT (code 2MK/S2MK/S2MKA in VIN specs | "M twin-clutch transm. with Drivelogic" | "M Doppelkupplungsgetriebe mit Drivelogic")
= two pedals but no torque convertor = manual transmission in BMW's book.

Therefore, "MANUAL"/"HECK" (instead of "AUT") is indicated in VIN specs of any F87 M2. See for example here.

You're are a manual aficionado, so you know regardless of how they market it, a manual transmission with a clutch pedal is polar opposite to a DCT in operation.

I've been reading since 2006 when the SMG 2 was a big deal that it would "replace the manual within the next five years" because it was soooo good and comparable, yet that day never arrived because deep down, BMW knows there is simple no replacement for that clutch pedal. Driving both back to back, they're almost like two different vehicles and anyone who say otherwise is practicing self-deception.

I know this is a touchy subject and sparks a lot of debate when mention, so I try to be as delicate as possible but I'm sorry, I just can't accept a transmission being classified as a true manual, where the gear change is operated by paddles and you can't balance the motion of the vehicle and gear change with the clutch pedal.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Poochie

I've been reading since 2006 when the SMG 2 was a big deal that it would "replace the manual within the next five years" because it was soooo good and comparable, yet that day never arrived because deep down, BMW knows there is simple no replacement for that clutch pedal. Driving both back to back, they're almost like two different vehicles and anyone who say otherwise is practicing self-deception.

For the record, the SMGII Drivelogic (Sequential Manual Gearbox II) did not feature a dual-clutch transmission. But I am sure that you know that. I recall that my E46 M3 SMGII could behave a tad clunky/jerky on cold mornings. M-DCT is a smooth operator. About the SMGIII Drivelogic (E60 M5): see for example here (2004).

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Artemis

For the record, the SMGII Drivelogic (Sequential Manual Gearbox II) did not feature a dual-clutch transmission. But I am sure that you know that. I recall that my E46 M3 SMGII could behave a tad clunky/jerky on cold mornings. M-DCT is a smooth operator. About the SMGIII (E60 M5): see for example here (2004).

I'm aware the SMG was "clunky" and had major issues with the SMG solenoid pump, however, it was described as "a manual gearbox that instead of having the clutch foot operated, has the clutch electrohydaulically operated via a pump and wired to computers" which sounds like tomayto, tomahto to a DCT in modus operandi.

The DCT has its charms and if I could of swing having two cars, one would certainly be a automated-manual, so no beef but since I could only have one, I'll stick to the third pedal option.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Poochie

You're are a manual aficionado

Affirmative, but got kinda 'forced out' of beloved Manual Transmission Land in the recent past as a result of a motorcycle accident (see here).

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Affirmative, but got kinda 'forced out' of beloved Manual Transmission Land in the recent past as a result of a motorcycle accident (see here).

I'm really sorry to hear about that, it sucks when life throws you a curve ball but as they say, it could been worst and being limited to DCT is best possible outcome..

Trust me, I've seen people get much more rawer deals, just by simply being victims of the circumstance... But I digress..

The DCT is pretty cool, the lighten fast shifting is impressive, it shifts before you could even finish a though but when I drive a DCT or ZF8, it just temps me to play with the paddles, step on the gas pedal and blast off.

I could better pace myself in speed, when you're allowed to modulate a shifter and clutch pedal. DCT 0 to 100mph, real quick would get me in a lot of trouble. It's fun but addictive.

It's cool BMW still gives you that option of a manual, which I sure they did begrudgingly but couldn't deny the numbers, in a 2023 model year.. It shows they understand their market demand and one of their saving grace, in a niche but competitive market.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Poochie

The DCT is pretty cool, the lighten fast shifting is impressive, it shifts before you could even finish a though but when I drive a DCT or ZF8, it just temps me to play with the paddles, step on the gas pedal and blast off.

Poochie, see this post from the past.

Quite likely you will recognize the message that I tried to get across of breathing some 'soul' into the whole experience by working the gearshift lever: a joy for the senses, including both hands and feet dancing around. The driver's seat as a workplace, rather than as your couch behind a switchboard. Push and pull, twist and shove, rather than 'click'. That visceral experience of more mechanics than electronics at play + you're in control.

[gosi]

Why do you guys care *so* much about the lack of dct? I mean, you could just buy another car with it, instead of the new m2. You could also consider for a brief moment that the zf8 will be upgraded for m2 duty, instead of criticising before it’s even out. There is no reason the torque converter couldn’t approach dct shift speeds to the point that it makes no difference, it already has in fact. The trend today is back to torque converters for torquey applications. Besides, every shitbox today has a dct anyway

[GoneIn4Secs]

Why do supercars opt for DCT instead of torque converters then?????

Cause racecar babyyyy!

[///MCollection]

I've got both the zf8 and dct in m cars and there really is not that much to choose between the two on change speed and jolt. Even the dct is smooth in auto if driven in traffic. The f85 with zf8 in sport plus still bangs on full throttle upshift and lets out a nice bark too so it's very involving. Have to say both are far better cars and setups than I am a driver but both can be caught out at times and be proven to have flaws.

[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Rumor has it the G87 M2's grille dimensions will be similar to that of the M235i Grand Coup..

I could live with that..

That would be a no-go grille for me. BMW is making a Chevy an easy choice for me.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by gosi

Why do you guys care *so* much about the lack of dct? I mean, you could just buy another car with it, instead of the new m2. You could also consider for a brief moment that the zf8 will be upgraded for m2 duty, instead of criticising before it’s even out. There is no reason the torque converter couldn’t approach dct shift speeds to the point that it makes no difference, it already has in fact. The trend today is back to torque converters for torquey applications. Besides, every shitbox today has a dct anyway

Because every iteration of ZF8 BMW M put out so far is lackluster compared to M-DCT, including F90. It annoys the hell out of me when transmission’s manual mode response is delayed when driving fast which the ZF8 is.

It also brings the engine redline down to 7200 rpm due to oil cavitation in the gearbox, whereas MT/DCT are rated at 9,000 rpm. Torque converter is in no way a sports car transmission as it inherently limits the engine capability rather than embracing by a margin.

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

This times eleventy two thousand. Also why MT is the only logical choice in an M car.