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Originally Posted by RugbyBro

There are all sorts of logistical issues with my "solution" but the point I'm trying to get across is if we truly car about "grassroots motorsports" and race cars - we can put our heads together and figure out a real solution that would make those vehicles exempt and penalize people who abuse the rule. The reason you go after the business is not because of principle but because of practice... that a significant amount of these "mods" are making it to the street.

Trust me, I get it - having all these mods available to us feels great, and it will suck to lose them but they aren't supposed to be out there to begin with. I don't have secondary cats on my car, but if battle lines are drawn then I'll weld them back on if I have to. I have enough people around me running their cat-less setup and ak47 popcorn tunes, that I honestly have no sympathy or empathy for people who can't do that anymore.

Look, a gun manufacturer can sell to a store who can do a background check and assuming they pass the background check the user can do what they want after taking ownership of said gun. If you shoot someone you risk going to jail. We have detectives for that. Similar here, in that the exhaust or tune manufacturer can sell to a race shop who can sell to a user after verifying it is for a race only vehicle with no tag, however that user could then get it inspected and register it, then install the part and drive it on the street. Where is the detective for enforcement?

Companies are not responsible for the use of their products. Glass makers make bongs and other marijuana devices, yet do so under the guise that they are for tobacco. Sure they tried to enforce that a while ago, but it didn’t go anywhere.

If government wants to regulate and control, then it should be prepared to own the burden of enforcement. They have emissions and passive emissions inspections via sniffers with cameras on certain roads in the area at present.

The gun analogy was just that. Not a political point at all.

[M3_WC]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

I’m not going to get political as this thread is slowly inching that direction. Here’s a vague solution, a national registry of VIN’d cars turned race car that cannot be registered as a street vehicle with any municipality. Then all a manufacturer has to do is cross check the VIN you provide for purchase. Therefore people who truly care about “grassroots” motorsports will have a clear as day exemption and aftermarket companies are held to a slightly higher standard than a promise that their customers won’t use them on-road.

That won't work. I know plenty of people that either autocross or do track days. They install some of the non-street legal mods and trailer their cars to events. The other days of the month they can re-install their catted midpipes and rear muffler and drive on the street legally(do some canyon carving).

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

They’re not supposed to be making those items to begin with - cats aren’t new.

That is not true. You can manufacturer and sell equipment that defeats emissions equipment as long as it is labeled for off-road and/or competition use. It is virtually impossible for these companies to track their customers use of their products. Whether the customers are following their states emissions laws. It is up to the states to fine people driving with emission defeating modifications. I know in Cali there are now hefty fines to be had in the $1k's. Cali cops won't hesitate to inspect cars these days. The federal government is really over stepping their bounds here. Like SEMA states in the amicus brief, the EPA interpretation of the CAA is incorrect. It was incorrect in 2015 and it is now.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

And again, emissions equipment is not a roadblock to power anymore so there’s even less of an argument for gutting emissions controls in modern vehicles than there was even 10 years ago.

Not everyone is driving the most recent modern cars, that make power in spite of the newest emissions equipment. If you are competing in a modified autocross class and you are NA. Every extra hp can be very helpful. Running catless can unleash a lot of hp on a NA powerplant.

[joooiiiiii]

Read every post since the first. I don't support this bill as I'm all for the EPA (or applicable agency) to enforce this on businesses. And if individuals decide that they want to circumvent it, there should be a penalty when caught. I can see both sides of the argument (and some other weird excuses), but at the end of the day--I believe we need the gov't to step in because this will just go on forever.

I recall NYC dumping trash straight into the ocean until mid 1900s when the local gov't had to put a stop to it.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by M3_WC

That won't work. I know plenty of people that either autocross or do track days. They install some of the non-street legal mods and trailer their cars to events. The other days of the month they can re-install their catted midpipes and rear muffler and drive on the street legally(do some canyon carving).

That is not true. You can manufacturer and sell equipment that defeats emissions equipment as long as it is labeled for off-road and/or competition use. It is virtually impossible for these companies to track their customers use of their products. Whether the customers are following their states emissions laws. It is up to the states to fine people driving with emission defeating modifications. I know in Cali there are now hefty fines to be had in the $1k's. Cali cops won't hesitate to inspect cars these days. The federal government is really over stepping their bounds here. Like SEMA states in the amicus brief, the EPA interpretation of the CAA is incorrect. It was incorrect in 2015 and it is now.


Not everyone is driving the most recent modern cars, that make power in spite of the newest emissions equipment. If you are competing in a modified autocross class and you are NA. Every extra hp can be very helpful. Running catless can unleash a lot of hp on a NA powerplant.

1. The point of my suggestion is that you would not be allowed to run off-road equipment AND register your vehicle as a street vehicle. It wouldn't matter if you switch out the de-cat for the week because as soon as you drive it on the street you'll get pulled over since you don't have plates or valid registration. If you build a race car, then it IS a race car and cannot be dual purpose. Like I said in another post, it's not a fleshed out solution but the point is if this is about "grassroots" then we can figure out a solution that specifically benefits that. It's arbitrary to go back and forth on the details of a bill that doesn't exist rather than discuss its general principles.

2. What manufacturers are doing in principle is not lining up with what they are doing in practice. If it were, we wouldn't be having issues with the EPA. I would wager you a frosty beverage that a SIGNIFICANT amount of engine/tuning/exhaust industry revenue comes from street registered vehicles. Signing some dinky "off-road only" waiver probably doesn't preclude any business from Uncle Sam's wrath if they are deemed a major contributing factor to a problem. Look I can't prove the revenue makeup of any private company as much as anyone else can, but just based on circumstances, clearly using off-road products on-road is a visible problem.

3. This is probably where we disagree fundamentally - I don't see emissions restrictions as an issue so long as its uniformly enforced. Beyond that, I don't believe emissions compliant racing is necessarily a bad thing. If there's an imbalance across competitors due to power, then shouldn't the organization be setting rules/standards to rectify that?

Although it may sound otherwise, I am all for there being a legitimate after market industry serving off-road competition and I love that as consumers we can take advantage of the fact that all these products are accessible to us. I'm just not going to dig in and pretend like I'm in the right about running my non-emissions compliant exhaust. My personal view is: take advantage of it while you can, it won't be around forever. At the rate EVs are developing, it may be sooner than we think. As enthusiasts we can spend our time fighting against the inevitable or enjoy what we have while we have it and if we don't make a big stink then maybe we can enjoy it just a little bit longer. - there likely is a streisand effect to consider.

As it relates to RPM Act specifically: If it's actually protecting consumers and grassroots organizations/racing? You got my vote. But if it's an industry interest bill hiding behind the guise of "grassroots racing"? That's a tougher sell for me.

[MikeD9]

I get that we need a clean environment, but to focus on a small portion of an industry which creates jobs all over the world will be a drop in the bucket. They want clean energy so let's get rid of coal and built wind turbines which need new blades every few years made out of plastics and bamboo, so chemicals and trees. Once the blades get replaced, the old ones get buried somewhere in Wyoming or Montana. Also let's switch to electric cars as they have a small eco footprint, they will still be made out of materials that need crude oil, metals that are mined and parts manufactured in China which as ambitious to go zero emissions by 2060, they'll pollute the hell out of things before they get there.

If one cares about the environment, ride a bike, if you care about modifying and racing cars, send a message to your representative, or better yet, do both.

https://www.votervoice.net/mobile/SE.../45394/respond

Mod bargains had a visit from the EPA according to this video