[Squidget]

Originally Posted by 1stM

He pulled "Engineering degree" on you. . Most engineers are narrow-minded unless they can think outside the box. I will be enjoying my G87 too when it's arrived.

Hey now. I have an engineering degree too, and I wouldn't say most of my coworkers are narrow-minded. They are just people with opinions, no different than anyone else. Let's keep it respectful, k?

[Ravenseal]

Originally Posted by Talx

Well considering I have a Bsc in Engineering with major in combustion and jet propelled engines I’m guessing you’re theory is going down the drain.
From an engineering point of view weight is always your enemy, have you heard of inertia or moment of inertia ? It’s working against you when your trying to brake or corner a car, the more mass the car has the worst it gets and the harder the mechanical grip needs to work to cope with it.

Lol. As someone with a masters degree. You know what else is your enemy? Money. Regulations. Supply constraints. Competition. Cannibalizing your own products. There’s no doubt BMW has the engineering capabilities to build a 911-like car. The problem is IT MAKES NO SENSE. The M2 slots in a niche market position (pricing and capabilities) and that’s what they build for. They’re not going to turn it into a Cayman or a Lotus or a Supra. Just move on if the M2 isn’t what you want.

[Talx]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Lol. As someone with a masters degree. You know what else is your enemy? Money. Regulations. Supply constraints. Competition. Cannibalizing your own products. There’s no doubt BMW has the engineering capabilities to build a 911-like car. The problem is IT MAKES NO SENSE. The M2 slots in a niche market position (pricing and capabilities) and that’s what they build for. They’re not going to turn it into a Cayman or a Lotus or a Supra. Just move on if the M2 isn’t what you want.

I’m well aware of Money, Regulations, Supply constraints etc etc etc…as a CEO of a biotech incubator in charge of managing several R&D operations. But this is obviously far from the truth, the M cars where always track focused and at least tried to shed off as much weight as possible.
This new M2 is catering a Luxury sport Sedan technologicall entertainment crowd that is far from the M’s original roots. That’s why they made it wider longer bigger and through a bunch of crap into it, you don’t need a masters to understand this. Yes now it’s in a niche but far from where it set out. That why you have people mentioning that it’s presence is more important than it’s performance.

And you are absolutely right I’m going to move on, this is what I said from the start considering the new M2 is not a step forward in regards to a track able car for the road like the old M2, I’m going to move on, probably get a Porsche and keep the M2C for fun.

[Slick1984]

Originally Posted by Talx

I’m well aware of Money, Regulations, Supply constraints etc etc etc…as a CEO of a biotech incubator in charge of managing several R&D operations. But this is obviously far from the truth, the M cars where always track focused and at least tried to shed off as much weight as possible.
This new M2 is catering a Luxury sport Sedan technologicall entertainment crowd that is far from the M’s original roots. That’s why they made it wider longer bigger and through a bunch of crap into it, you don’t need a masters to understand this. Yes now it’s in a niche but far from where it set out. That why you have people mentioning that it’s presence is more important than it’s performance.

And you are absolutely right I’m going to move on, this is what I said from the start considering the new M2 is not a step forward in regards to a track able car for the road like the old M2, I’m going to move on, probably get a Porsche and keep the M2C for fun.

Thank you for moving on. Good luck.

[LCDRJohn]

Originally Posted by Squidget

Sure, but what makes it engineering, and not just applied physics, is that engineering is the act of working within constraints.

When you say something like "there's no reason it weighs more," that's a very not-engineer thing to say. There's always a spec sheet, or a req for a lower grade of aluminum to fit the budget because supply chain, or whatever. There are market forces.

The amount of times I've heard people say "well if you just build it out of titanium" or "why can't you write that software program in 2 weeks, how hard can it be it's just typing." Sigh.

My point is that there ARE perfectly rational reasons to increase weight, which is of course why car weight has been increasing since the 80s. Regulations, market forces, etc.

+1000 Squidge!

For some reason folks don't get this. And they also get a metric stuck in their head and miss the other metrics, that may factor in even more than the first. For example, if you increase weight, but increase chassis stiffness, what is the net gain? Or if you increase weight, but that allows you to move the center-of-gravity down 2 inches, how does that make the car feel/perform?

My circle of racers is comprised mostly of engineers, mostly defense contractor types (EE/ME, and Aero), and they all must have swollen prostates because they are a cranky bunch of bastards! Haha! They all autocross and run boxsters, elise, RX-8s, caymans, etc.

Back in 2003, I bought an E46M3 to autocross, and they were like, "How can you drive that nose-heavy pig with an iron engine? And it is so much heavier than the E36!"

Oddly, we look at that car today and it seems 'light', and even with the iron block had a 50/50% weight balance. The reason why it understeered like a pig was because BMW tuned the suspension wrong. We added camber plates and coil-overs and VIOLA! That iron engine somehow lost weight! LOL! But to them, it was the only metric that counted, and they used it to scapegoat the handling issues, when the real answer was elsewhere.

Then I got a 997.2S and if possible, it was the worst handling car I've owned...but heck, it was light. I have a vid of a 5-time Nat solo champ mowing down 200 cones on a run and coming back to tell me he's never driven a worse car. I sold it after 8 months.

Then I got an E92M3, and all my friends said, "Just when you think BMW can't make a bigger pig, they do this!" So the car gained 200lbs from the E46 Gen, but has a center of gravity 18.5 freaking inches off the ground (one of the lowest of any street car measured)! And the chassis was 30% stiffer than the previous model. And it had more power. But they only saw weight as a metric, and missed that fact that the E92 obliterated my E46 in every measurable way, and also was superior to my 997.2S. BMW made "choices", not shortcuts. To this date, I have never had a lighter-feeling street car than my E92 and I miss it everyday.
Anyway on this TL/DR thing:
I too am buying the M2 as the last of its breed. Like my GT3, I'm keeping it until they ban them, or I run out of steam. Haha!

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

My circle of racers is comprised mostly of engineers, mostly defense contractor types (EE/ME, and Aero), and they all must have swollen prostates because they are a cranky bunch of bastards! Haha!

LOL...too funny.

I had many engineers as clients and they were ALL miserable cause they simply couldn't apply their logic to the mkts.

[ourlee]

Originally Posted by Talx

Clearly you are missing my point, I don’t really care if the new M2 is better ore worse, the unfocused tv game type cluster and lacking performance are just going to stop me from buying the new version( which I have no problem in by) and push me into a new direction for a more focused drivers car, the natural step forward is to move to a Porsche.

I’d LOVE an 85k CPO 991.2 T. But still big $$

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by Talx

This new M2 is catering a Luxury sport Sedan technologicall entertainment crowd that is far from the M’s original roots. That’s why they made it wider longer bigger and through a bunch of crap into it, you don’t need a masters to understand this. Yes now it’s in a niche but far from where it set out. That why you have people mentioning that it’s presence is more important than it’s performance.

I'm not saying this is untrue, but it's not been my experience. At least back as far as I can remember, M division has always had to start with the vanilla sedan chassis (E46, etc.). And they sometimes added as much weight as they removed (F87C).

I don't remember M division ever making a pure-performance-no-luxury car, in any significant numbers. (Yes you had the 1M, but let's be honest, that was a one-shot car and basically a low-volume toy.)

Like, I can't think of M making a equivalent of an Elise or a 911 Turbo S, is what I mean. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

[Humdizzle]

Originally Posted by Squidget

I'm not saying this is untrue, but it's not been my experience. At least back as far as I can remember, M division has always had to start with the vanilla sedan chassis (E46, etc.). And they sometimes added as much weight as they removed (F87C).

I don't remember M division ever making a pure-performance-no-luxury car, in any significant numbers. (Yes you had the 1M, but let's be honest, that was a one-shot car and basically a low-volume toy.)

Like, I can't think of M making a equivalent of an Elise or a 911 Turbo S, is what I mean. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

they had a chance to do something with the i8, but botched it with that 3 cylinder hybrid.

[ronin13013]

They do create light weight focused cars, but they are super limited and cost 911 money.

Originally Posted by Squidget

I'm not saying this is untrue, but it's not been my experience. At least back as far as I can remember, M division has always had to start with the vanilla sedan chassis (E46, etc.). And they sometimes added as much weight as they removed (F87C).

I don't remember M division ever making a pure-performance-no-luxury car, in any significant numbers. (Yes you had the 1M, but let's be honest, that was a one-shot car and basically a low-volume toy.)

Like, I can't think of M making a equivalent of an Elise or a 911 Turbo S, is what I mean. Maybe I'm forgetting something.

[2one3E90]

How did u get one.

[Connors5453]

Originally Posted by 2one3E90

How did u get one.

It was the HEA (Display Car) at my local dealer.

[TrentMeister]

So far I’m thinking BG is the best color

[2one3E90]

Originally Posted by Connors5453

It was the HEA (Display Car) at my local dealer.

what industry you work in. I want it.

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by Talx

WOW! you really think im "butthurt" about my F87?

I really wanted the G87 to be an amazing car but clearly its not, if it was I would just go out and buy the new model like I have always done before. its become a luxury daily driver, everyone agrees that its not as fun and exiting as the F87, no one believes that its much better at anything than the older model except the engine which i agree is a leap forward, but other than that it understeers into the corner, oversteers out of the corner is extremely heavy, brake feel is numb it in no way stops better considering on track they all say because of the weight you need to brake earlier. they do mention better ride quality but that is probably due to the adaptive suspension and the added weight which makes it feel! more planted. and as tested its not as fast as the Supra so probably at the best it probably isn't faster than an M2C.

if you daily drive and are not really looking for a driver focused car its a great choice if you don't mind the hideous looks of it and are looking for a new 0 mileage car.

Personally i feel its time for me to move on to a more driver focused car.

By the way think of it most sports cars coming out with new models usually at the worst have a target weight similar to the outgoing model but the new M2 is 100 Kg heavier. doesn't make sense

Find yourself a paper bag

Roll the edges

Place to mouth

And breath

[2one3E90]

Originally Posted by TrentMeister

Find yourself a paper bag

Roll the edges

Place to mouth

And breath

Why dont you eat some steamed fish. Dont forget to put the scallions and ginger inside it! And GET THE CORRECT SOYSAUCE

[TrentMeister]

Originally Posted by 2one3E90

Why dont you eat some steamed fish. Dont forget to put the scallions and ginger inside it! And GET THE CORRECT SOYSAUCE

Damn bro you didn’t have to go so hard😮‍💨

[02M3ForMe]

Originally Posted by LCDRJohn

+1000 Squidge!

For some reason folks don't get this. And they also get a metric stuck in their head and miss the other metrics, that may factor in even more than the first. For example, if you increase weight, but increase chassis stiffness, what is the net gain? Or if you increase weight, but that allows you to move the center-of-gravity down 2 inches, how does that make the car feel/perform?

My circle of racers is comprised mostly of engineers, mostly defense contractor types (EE/ME, and Aero), and they all must have swollen prostates because they are a cranky bunch of bastards! Haha! They all autocross and run boxsters, elise, RX-8s, caymans, etc.

Back in 2003, I bought an E46M3 to autocross, and they were like, "How can you drive that nose-heavy pig with an iron engine? And it is so much heavier than the E36!"

Oddly, we look at that car today and it seems 'light', and even with the iron block had a 50/50% weight balance. The reason why it understeered like a pig was because BMW tuned the suspension wrong. We added camber plates and coil-overs and VIOLA! That iron engine somehow lost weight! LOL! But to them, it was the only metric that counted, and they used it to scapegoat the handling issues, when the real answer was elsewhere.

Then I got a 997.2S and if possible, it was the worst handling car I've owned...but heck, it was light. I have a vid of a 5-time Nat solo champ mowing down 200 cones on a run and coming back to tell me he's never driven a worse car. I sold it after 8 months.

Then I got an E92M3, and all my friends said, "Just when you think BMW can't make a bigger pig, they do this!" So the car gained 200lbs from the E46 Gen, but has a center of gravity 18.5 freaking inches off the ground (one of the lowest of any street car measured)! And the chassis was 30% stiffer than the previous model. And it had more power. But they only saw weight as a metric, and missed that fact that the E92 obliterated my E46 in every measurable way, and also was superior to my 997.2S. BMW made "choices", not shortcuts. To this date, I have never had a lighter-feeling street car than my E92 and I miss it everyday.
Anyway on this TL/DR thing:
I too am buying the M2 as the last of its breed. Like my GT3, I'm keeping it until they ban them, or I run out of steam. Haha!

Perfectly said.