[nbennettksu]

Cant wait to see how well this thread ages

[nbennettksu]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Yup, Texas and Florida have second/third most EV registrations.

Man, I can tell you about one in five cars around south FL is a Tesla. It really is bananas.

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Exactly my point. I don’t deny ev’s usefulness in some instances. They work for some and don’t for others. But to think that any ev with available tech for masses is suitable for lapping Nurburgring better than ICE cars is pipe dream at least for now. Unless it’s one lap only.

Or you could set records at Pikes Peak, or Goodwood Festival Of Speed. But yeah, EV performance is not good enough for your civilian needs.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Or you could set records at Pikes Peak, or Goodwood Festival Of Speed. But yeah, EV performance is not good enough for your civilian needs.

They’re fantastic. Just like any other appliance. People bought 130000 civics last year. Nothing wrong with that. In states that there’s winter ice car’s range doesn’t drop 40%. Just be objective.

[JustChris]

Loads of you guys assuming EV drivers have been mis sold or regret their car? Perhaps for an outright purchaser but thats no the way to do this at all.


Mines the cheapest motoring I will ever experience on a Salary sacrifice scheme in the UK.

All in its less than £500 a month for 15,000 mpa, no deposit, free home charger and 5000 miles worth of electricity. Tyres, Maintenance, Insurance, Tax, the lot.

My 4000 miles fuel so far have cost less than £80. Sure winter is coming and there will be a drop off, might rise to £5 per 250 miles 'shudder'.

Its also fun to drive and pulls all I need for general UK driving. Its not an M car replacement for sure but hey ho.

Oh yeah I regret it big time

[hotrod182]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

They’re fantastic. Just like any other appliance. People bought 130000 civics last year. Nothing wrong with that. In states that there’s winter ice car’s range doesn’t drop 40%. Just be objective.

Amazing you don't seem to realize the advantages of an EV.

If you drive 250 miles/day, you will "only" be able to do 91000 miles per year. That's just taking the 5 seconds to plug it in at home and never visit a gas station.

Yes, EVs are setting records at Pikes Peak and Goodwind, etc, but they are not good enough for your everyday driving?

So you don't like speed? How about the fact that the EV provides a smoother, more luxurious drive to boot.

If you think shifting delays, turbo lag, vibrations, and noise are sportier than an instant throttle response EV, good for you.

Its great to easily hear that noisy, wailing ICE engine next to you as you effortlessly pull away.

If you really do drive fast most of the time, like I do, noise is your worst enemy when attracting the attention of law enforcement. Keeping a low profile is key if you want to keep your driver's license.

All this talk about 1000HP modified ICE cars with no warranty that get 12mpg vs 80MPGe+ of the 1000HP EVs. This is coming from a guy that used to have one of the fastest 335i BMWs in the country 15 years ago.

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Amazing you don't seem to realize the advantages of an EV.

If you drive 250 miles/day, you will "only" be able to do 91000 miles per year. That's just taking the 5 seconds to plug it in at home and never visit a gas station.

Yes, EVs are setting records at Pikes Peak and Goodwind, etc, but they are not good enough for your everyday driving?

So you don't like speed? How about the fact that the EV provides a smoother, more luxurious drive to boot.

If you think shifting delays, turbo lag, vibrations, and noise are sportier than an instant throttle response EV, good for you.

Its great to easily hear that noisy, wailing ICE engine next to you as you effortlessly pull away.

If you really do drive fast most of the time, like I do, noise is your worst enemy when attracting the attention of law enforcement. Keeping a low profile is key if you want to keep your driver's license.

All this talk about 1000HP modified ICE cars with no warranty that get 12mpg vs 80MPGe+ of the 1000HP EVs.

Those are all sensible arguments. No question about that probably why those vehicles find their owners. However. As I stated before I personally don’t like a looks of any of them. They all do not look good for me. What’s more those are all first gen vehicles with their limitations that I choose not to deal with. I don’t think it’s bad to have the choice. I choose ICE car till there’s EV that I will like. I have not stated anywhere that I will NEVER get one. Anything wrong with that ? For some reason once I state my concerns or simply things I don’t like about them there’s a EV sect shouting. Just because you’re louder doesn’t make you right.

[Z K]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

Every proper driver will tell you that weight is everything on track. Like said before. Just because something can be done doesn’t mean it should. EV is not tool for the job. At least not yet.

Not to mention the Teslas are 1 lap wonders. They can do 1 lap before they overheat on track. The Plaids can do a full lap of the ring then will overheat and go into limp mode in the 2nd lap. A Model 3 Performance can't complete a single lap before limp mode.

I run into Teslas at track days here in California. There's a lot of them. They do a 1 lap fast, 1 lap slow so they can avoid overheating. Plus a single 20 min driving session drains 80% of the battery and they need to supercharge after every session (that's 7-8 times in a track day). Most superchargers are not on site so they need to drive 15-20min to go charge and come back for their next session. All this makes for a miserable track day.

[AndreM2]

Of course, with battery driven cars, the weight will go up,” he says. “ The good thing is we have been fighting weight since the beginning because weight is our, let's say, basic enemy.

Haha M2 1700kg, M4 over 1700kg. What the hell is this guy talking about! BMW has never seen weight as their basic enemy!

The M EV will be as heavy as a cruise ship!

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by hotrod182

Amazing you don't seem to realize the advantages of an EV.

If you drive 250 miles/day, you will "only" be able to do 91000 miles per year. That's just taking the 5 seconds to plug it in at home and never visit a gas station.

Yes, EVs are setting records at Pikes Peak and Goodwind, etc, but they are not good enough for your everyday driving?

So you don't like speed? How about the fact that the EV provides a smoother, more luxurious drive to boot.

If you think shifting delays, turbo lag, vibrations, and noise are sportier than an instant throttle response EV, good for you.

Its great to easily hear that noisy, wailing ICE engine next to you as you effortlessly pull away.

If you really do drive fast most of the time, like I do, noise is your worst enemy when attracting the attention of law enforcement. Keeping a low profile is key if you want to keep your driver's license.

All this talk about 1000HP modified ICE cars with no warranty that get 12mpg vs 80MPGe+ of the 1000HP EVs. This is coming from a guy that used to have one of the fastest 335i BMWs in the country 15 years ago.

They're amazing in many respects and getting better. There still isn't one that can go uphill in the cold at 80+ to Mammoth without stopping for more than 5 minutes to charge.

[OUGrad05]

Originally Posted by Fugly M3

They're amazing in many respects and getting better. There still isn't one that can go uphill in the cold at 80+ to Mammoth without stopping for more than 5 minutes to charge.

They aren't for every use case, but I hope you realize you're talking about a fringe use case right?

Battery tech still needs to have some improvement but that is coming.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by OUGrad05

They aren't for every use case, but I hope you realize you're talking about a fringe use case right?

Battery tech still needs to have some improvement but that is coming.

Perhaps, but I do it 7-10 times a winter. At 700-750 miles a trip, that's not fringe for my use case. The amount of people I see doing it at 55-60 mph in Teslas, stopping all along the way, never ceases to amaze me. Time is valued differently person to person I suppose. I also never see it getting to a point where it can tow my boat trailer 400+ miles on a charge at 80+ like my LR Discovery Td6 can. Even more fringe, but an absolute must for me.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by Fugly M3

Perhaps, but I do it 7-10 times a winter. At 700-750 miles a trip, that's not fringe for my use case. The amount of people I see doing it at 55-60 mph in Teslas, stopping all along the way, never ceases to amaze me. Time is valued differently person to person I suppose. I also never see it getting to a point where it can tow my boat trailer 400+ miles on a charge at 80+ like my LR Discovery Td6 can. Even more fringe, but an absolute must for me.

The towing isn’t fringe. That’s why trucks are so popular. People have boats and ATV’s and equipment and campers, etc.

You know who isn’t showing any signs of dropping cylinders? GM. Those trucks are packing the 5.3 V8 and they’re not planning to stop. They had a V6 project that they recently squashed, apparently, in favor of keeping their bread and butter 5.3. Now if they’d admit they have shitty transmissions and fix that problem, they’d be the best truck out there (in my biased opinion - I drove A LOT of GM’s before switching to BMW).

[adc]

Originally Posted by micvite

Weight is only an issue on "some" (most) tracks though. Something like the nurburgring that's a high speed high downforce track actually benefits from a heavy ass car since it provides more grip. It's why f1 cars literally double their weight with downforce, so that they can turn essentially 90 degree turns at 100+ mph. Take a gt3rs, on the high speed sections you can literally see the car flattening itself and almost scraping on the track due to the downforce (you can look up pics), sadly I don't have exact values for the amount of downforce they produce buy porsche says its 900 lbs at 124 and 1900 at 177 mph... so yeah that's turning into a 5k lbs car regularly on the nurburgring.

You are only half right, because you forgot that momentum (inertia) is proportional with the weight, and it is in fact inertia that is the enemy on a racetrack. Every time you need to accelerate, slow down or turn, inertia will make the job harder in a heavy car.

Adding downforce on a lightweight car is a virtuous endeavor because it doesn’t increase the inertia. If that weren’t the case, all race cars would weigh 10,000 for more grip.

That is why a BMW with half the power of a Tesla can run a similar lap time, and why a Porsche with the same power but even less weight can beat both.


Anyway, I agree with those who say that in the not too distant future, EVs will rule the non competitive track events. It won’t be hard for track operators to install some chargers on the property… I give it 5 years or so till they become common place.

Everyone who’s always wanted a 911 but was afraid to commit $150k to it should rethink and buy one now. The ICE end is near…

[Rafichicago]

Originally Posted by adc

Everyone who’s always wanted a 911 but was afraid to commit $150k to it should rethink and buy one now. The ICE end is near…

🤣🤣🤣i dont even think this is worth a comment, and here I am doing so. In EU they are already trying to find a gracious way to back out of that 2035 end of ICE nonsense

[micvite]

Originally Posted by adc

You are only half right, because you forgot that momentum (inertia) is proportional with the weight, and it is in fact inertia that is the enemy on a racetrack. Every time you need to accelerate, slow down or turn, inertia will make the job harder in a heavy car.

Adding downforce on a lightweight car is a virtuous endeavor because it doesn’t increase the inertia. If that weren’t the case, all race cars would weigh 10,000 for more grip.

That is why a BMW with half the power of a Tesla can run a similar lap time, and why a Porsche with the same power but even less weight can beat both.


Anyway, I agree with those who say that in the not too distant future, EVs will rule the non competitive track events. It won’t be hard for track operators to install some chargers on the property… I give it 5 years or so till they become common place.

Everyone who’s always wanted a 911 but was afraid to commit $150k to it should rethink and buy one now. The ICE end is near…

Yeah you are correct on that, downforce just adds to the normal force that increases friction without adding to the moment of inertia, but at the same time there are ways to make up for the inertia (add power for acceleration, add drag or massive brakes plus regen for braking) at most you would struggle a bit more in the actual corners, but how much of a difference I'd that really making when comparing lw plus df vs just a heavy car (look what an x5m can do on a high speed track)

[TargaM2]

🥱😴

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by Rafichicago

🤣🤣🤣i dont even think this is worth a comment, and here I am doing so. In EU they are already trying to find a gracious way to back out of that 2035 end of ICE nonsense

Yup. They cannot force people to buy EVs. So, if people decide to stop buying cars and drive up the used market, massive automakers and all they employ in the chain suffer. They then whine to the respective governments and the governments relent. EVs will be light years better than they are today by 2035, but the infrastructure is likely to not be widespread enough to support 100% sales, if even 50%. Hence, there will probably still be some ICE cars being sold new beyond 2035.

[dezzracer]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

That’s 99% of car usage.

Which is why I’d like to see BMW focus on a hybrid with say a 500 hp ICE delivering 50 to 60 miles per gallon supplemented with E- motor and 50-60 mile range for those little around town errands to pacify the tree huggers and rock lickers. Seems to make a lot more sence than full EV for us enthusiast’s.. At least until they figure out the infrastructure and charging issues.

[ChrisM4]

Originally Posted by dezzracer

Which is why I’d like to see BMW focus on a hybrid with say a 500 hp ICE delivering 50 to 60 miles per gallon supplemented with E- motor and 50-60 mile range for those little around town errands to pacify the tree huggers and rock lickers. Seems to make a lot more sence than full EV for us enthusiast’s.. At least until they figure out the infrastructure and charging issues.

Haha I’ve heard of tree huggers but what is a rock licker?

I really hope solid state batteries from Toyota become reality / production ready quickly. Lightweight and fast charging is what I’m waiting for.

I’m a big fan of hybrids as a bridging technology until the infrastructure is in place. From a performance car perspective using hybrid technology for torque fill is awesome on the road and track.

Until then I’ll revel in my glorious 6 speed manual M3 on 94 octane.

[msej449]

Waiting for a delayed home delivery, I thought that it might be interesting to profile the topic so far in terms of the main critical points being made. So here it is (numer of times mentioned):

Specifically relating to the M3 EV of this Topic

(8) This is a 1-lap wonder and an EV version isn't a credible competitive race car.
(3) EV batteries are too heavy a weight penalty for a track car
(1) Currently, no EV racer will beat an equivalent ICEV racer all other things being equal
(1) This isn't really in the /M design tradition

And apropos of nothing other than that this is an EV (albeit way outside the mainstream market):

(10) EVs don't have the range to be a viable long-distance option
(5) EV 2nd-hand prices are relatively poor
(5) Mercedes EVs aren't selling
(3) An EV doesn't work for me, given my circumstances
(3) Charging station network is too limited (for longer trips)
(2) Charge time is too long
(2) using the aircon/heating/heated seats reduces range significantly
(2) BMW EVs arent' selling
(1) EVs are unsuited to cold
(1) Most EV owners who replace the car buy an ICEV
(1) EVs are often unviable for rural households

A number of people on here have said they feel targetted simply because they aren't an EV zealot. But look at it from the point of view of those posting as owners of both a BMW ICEV and an EV, or solely of a BMW EV:

That second set of criticisms aren't really anything to do with the topic in question. But they follow a standard pattern of what happens when EVs crop up. Every forum I'm on has threads about EVs and every time one starts up, the same thing happens: people go off one one. Usually stating things that we all know. Usually answering assertions that no one is making, e.g. they don't work for them (fine - no one is saying otherwise); or that the range doesn’t match an ICE equivalent (fine - no one is saying it will suit all use cases); or that it takes 25-30 minutes to fast recharge (yes, we know and it’s not an issue for us); etc. etc.

This recurrent litany of criticisms can thus sometimes grate, and explains, if not excuses, the odd trenchant response from EV owners. And that’s before the usual list of completely untrue or unproven claims, like that EVs regularly catch fire (ICEVs are 20x more likely to burst into flames); EVs make us dependent on China (not as much as microchips and we can counter this, if we wanted to); old batteries will pollute (there’s already a thriving battery reclamation and reprocessing industry); making a battery car causes more pollution (it doesn’t); and so on.

Even as a pro/anti-EV discussion it doesn't work, because the EV domain has much more subtlety to its pros and cons. For example, the issue isn't so much that rural households have problems with EVs: they are often the ones that can most easily get home chargers installed, and whose driving is predominantly local. A real issue is the poor integration between the software in the car vs in the home charge point vs the energy supplier. Throw in some pretty clunky apps and it's often frustrating (other than with Tesla). As I've said elsewhere, in the UK I get night electricty for <20% of the cost of daytime tariff and so obviously, charge my car then (and run the dishwasher and washing machine then, as well as heat up the morning's hot water). If this sort of thing isn't available from US energy providers then something is wrong and needs fixing, because it works really well for eveyone: energy providers, distributors and consumers and it's essential if the grid is to cope with increased EV ownership. And on top of that, you'll find that the pros for EVs almost never get stated or elaborated - the discussion is almost always arounf the cons. So to redress that, here are some of the positives

Quiet
Instant throttle response
Linear power delivery (no gear changes needed)
Far cheaper lifetime maintenance
Home recharging is almost free, it's so cheap
Public recharging is cheaper than premium petrol
Can recharge at home
Zero emissions

This is because

No engine lag
No turbo lag
No gearbog lag
No crankshaft/diff' lag
Far fewer moving parts
Far less oils and liquids
Can benefit from off-peak home electricity tariffs

Perhaps this makes me look like an EV / environmental zealot but all it reflects is my experience of owning both technologies and liking each for its merits.

[NGT2]

Originally Posted by msej449

Waiting for a delayed home delivery, I thought that it might be interesting to profile the topic so far in terms of the main critical points being made. So here it is (numer of times mentioned):

Specifically relating to the M3 EV of this Topic

(8) This is a 1-lap wonder and an EV version isn't a credible competitive race car.
(3) EV batteries are too heavy aweight penalty for a track car
(1) Currently, no EV racer will beat an equivalent ICEV racer
(1) This isn't really in the /M design tradition

And apropos of nothing other than that this is an EV (albeit way outside the mainstream market):

(10) EVs don't have the range to be a viable long-distance option
(5) EV 2nd-hand prices are relatively poor
(5) Mercedes EVs aren't selling
(3) An EV doesn't work for me, given my circumstances
(3) Charging station network is too limited (for longer trips)
(2) Charge time is too long
(2) using the aircon/heating/heated seats kills range
(2) BMW EVs arent' selling
(1) EVs are unsuited to cold
(1) Most EV owners who replace the car buy an ICEV
(1) EVs are often unviable for rural households

A number of people on here have said they feel targetted simply because they aren't an EV zealot. But look at it from the point of view of those posting as owners of both a BMW ICEV and an EV, or solely of a BMW EV:

That second set of criticisms aren't really anything to do with the topic in question. But they follow a standard pattern of what happens when EVs crop up. Every forum I'm on has threads about EVs and every time one starts up, the same thing [...]

It’s become a political topic and therefore will rarely be discussed with objectivity and without personal bias. That’s what happens when governments, especially one political sect within government, forces the hand of established markets that already work well.