[GoneIn4Secs]

Why do supercars opt for DCT instead of torque converters then?????

Cause racecar babyyyy!

[///MCollection]

I've got both the zf8 and dct in m cars and there really is not that much to choose between the two on change speed and jolt. Even the dct is smooth in auto if driven in traffic. The f85 with zf8 in sport plus still bangs on full throttle upshift and lets out a nice bark too so it's very involving. Have to say both are far better cars and setups than I am a driver but both can be caught out at times and be proven to have flaws.

[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by Poochie

Rumor has it the G87 M2's grille dimensions will be similar to that of the M235i Grand Coup..

I could live with that..

That would be a no-go grille for me. BMW is making a Chevy an easy choice for me.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by gosi

Why do you guys care *so* much about the lack of dct? I mean, you could just buy another car with it, instead of the new m2. You could also consider for a brief moment that the zf8 will be upgraded for m2 duty, instead of criticising before it’s even out. There is no reason the torque converter couldn’t approach dct shift speeds to the point that it makes no difference, it already has in fact. The trend today is back to torque converters for torquey applications. Besides, every shitbox today has a dct anyway

Because every iteration of ZF8 BMW M put out so far is lackluster compared to M-DCT, including F90. It annoys the hell out of me when transmission’s manual mode response is delayed when driving fast which the ZF8 is.

It also brings the engine redline down to 7200 rpm due to oil cavitation in the gearbox, whereas MT/DCT are rated at 9,000 rpm. Torque converter is in no way a sports car transmission as it inherently limits the engine capability rather than embracing by a margin.

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

This times eleventy two thousand. Also why MT is the only logical choice in an M car.

[NickyC]

What's a DCT?

All my eyes see are a manual is available.

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Because every iteration of ZF8 BMW M put out so far is lackluster compared to M-DCT, including F90. It annoys the hell out of me when transmission’s manual mode response is delayed when driving fast which the ZF8 is.

It also brings the engine redline down to 7200 rpm due to oil cavitation in the gearbox, whereas MT/DCT are rated at 9,000 rpm. Torque converter is in no way a sports car transmission as it inherently limits the engine capability rather than embracing by a margin.

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

Agreed with this as M cars should have a DCT for at least product differentiation reasons.

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER

This times eleventy two thousand. Also why MT is the only logical choice in an M car.

Manual transmissions are also becoming rarer in the Porsche world. A lot of complaining that you can't get a base 911 in a manual transmission anymore.

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Because every iteration of ZF8 BMW M put out so far is lackluster compared to M-DCT, including F90. It annoys the hell out of me when transmission’s manual mode response is delayed when driving fast which the ZF8 is.

It also brings the engine redline down to 7200 rpm due to oil cavitation in the gearbox, whereas MT/DCT are rated at 9,000 rpm. Torque converter is in no way a sports car transmission as it inherently limits the engine capability rather than embracing by a margin.

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

You are right. A lot of complaining about the ZF8 in the M5 and X3 M and X4 M. The complaints will continue with the new M3 and M4 next year. They will also complain about the weight gain and people being negative about the grille.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by Hegge

You are right. A lot of complaining about the ZF8 in the M5 and X3 M and X4 M. The complaints will continue with the new M3 and M4 next year. They will also complain about the weight gain and people being negative about the grille.

Don't forget about the numb steering the next M2/3/4 will likely have. Been waiting for over a decade now for BMW to fix that.

[Hegge]

Originally Posted by BMWILUVU

That would be a no-go grille for me. BMW is making a Chevy an easy choice for me.

Assuming I get a CS allocation, it would make no sense to go from a F87 M2 CS to a G87 M2 base or Competition. I would have to wait for a G87 CS to be wowed which may not be until 2025 or so.

If the car has an ugly grille, I may have to extend for a 911. The F87 M2 has the perfect dimension as any length and weight gain of the G87 is not promising. People for the past four years call the current M2 chubby already.

[bitcore]

Originally Posted by woodman650

Mineral gray or equivalent, please!

+1
Skipped current gen because of this.
In for a 3-pedal version!

[kfscoll]

Originally Posted by bitcore

+1
Skipped current gen because of this.
In for a 3-pedal version!

I just looked in my garage and my F87 is definitely Mineral Gray.
And it has three pedals.

[fastboatster]

Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel

A big reason why Porsche must use PDK is because mid/rear engine cars pretty much have to because of packaging. Modern torque converter planetary automatics are too long. This is also way performance front engine FWD cars (or FWD based AWD) use DCTs or manual only as well. Cars like the GTI/Golf R, the Focus RS, Civic Type R, Veloster N, Civic Si, either are DCT or manual only because a torque converter automatic in a transverse configuration is severely compromised for use in a performance car.

Obviously Porsche and other mid engined cars are longitudinal, but they drive the rear wheels so need a transaxle with limited space in the back. Look at the new C8 corvette. They go mid engine so they changed from torque converter auto to DCT. That's why cars like the RS4/5/6, M3/M4/M5/M8 can all use torque converter automatics since they use a front engine RWD layout. Audis are a bit weird but since they have longitudinal engine configurations and it's easier to fit a long transmission in the front of the car, we can just pretend they are RWD cars.

Finally, I'm sure Porsche could fit a ZF 8HP in the back if they really wanted to. But they're Porsche. They charge a lot of money for the little things.

In Porsches, the transmission is pointed towards the inside of a car, so length doesn't matter too much. Besides, awd pdks are very similar in length to Audi's longitudinal dcts, and these are definitely NOT short, yet they fit them just fine. RWD zf8 is a very small transmission, same size as 6hp. 6hp is not gigantic either. Porsche previously had torque converter autos, the shift to dct was because dcts were quicker at a time and 1.5 lawyers driving these cars wanted to feel like they are some kind of enthusiast drivers.

[GA///BIT]

I'm optimistic about the new M models. Hopefully they live up to my expectations. I've owned two manuals cars and two with DCT. Both have pros and cons, but I've come to enjoy the DCT, the e92 and now in my f82.

I'll try the new ZF trans, and if it comes up short of my expectations, think I'll just make the jump into the PDK and be done with it. DD a manual in Socal gets old very quick. Still love them for what they represent, and I'm happy for those who "preach" the 3rd pedal.

[BMWILUVU]

Originally Posted by Hegge

Assuming I get a CS allocation, it would make no sense to go from a F87 M2 CS to a G87 M2 base or Competition. I would have to wait for a G87 CS to be wowed which may not be until 2025 or so.

If the car has an ugly grille, I may have to extend for a 911. The F87 M2 has the perfect dimension as any length and weight gain of the G87 is not promising. People for the past four years call the current M2 chubby already.

Extend for the 911. My bets are on an ugly G87.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by fastboatster

In Porsches, the transmission is pointed towards the inside of a car, so length doesn't matter too much. Besides, awd pdks are very similar in length to Audi's longitudinal dcts, and these are definitely NOT short, yet they fit them just fine. RWD zf8 is a very small transmission, same size as 6hp. 6hp is not gigantic either. Porsche previously had torque converter autos, the shift to dct was because dcts were quicker at a time and 1.5 lawyers driving these cars wanted to feel like they are some kind of enthusiast drivers.

Let the rant begin.

When it comes to ZF8 or DCT, It's not about the comparison of peak shift speed but about its consistency. DCT consistently shifts rapidly on every downshift/upshift request where ZF8 decides to shift a quarter second after a user input. You only need to drive F82 M4 and F90 M5 manually to notice this difference. ZF8 brutally loses out to DCT on downshifts as higher torques are applied to save the transmission. Its small packaging is its own demise.

This is a clear step backwards in performance and driving pleasure. I know I'm not going to be buying G8x because nothing it offers seem to be better than higher revving S55 equipped F8x M3/M4. How in the world are they going to make the car lighter than CFRP driveshaft, hood, and trunk equipped RWD F8x with G8x that has AWD, no CFRP driveshaft and cost cutting everywhere else?

BMW also knows they NEED MT to keep a substantial amount of M customers yet they make a big hype out of keeping MT and instead use that as an excuse to drop DCT. Remember we used to be able to option MT/DCT as standard not too long ago? They are planning to charge more for a heavier, less engaging car.

The car will be objectively good no doubt, but it won't be a great M car. They should be ashamed of the non-existent ingenuity in their signature products.

[///M4ster Yoda]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Let the rant begin.

When it comes to ZF8 or DCT, It's not about the comparison of peak shift speed but about its consistency. DCT consistently shifts rapidly on every downshift/upshift request where ZF8 decides to shift a quarter second after a user input. You only need to drive F82 M4 and F90 M5 manually to notice this difference. ZF8 brutally loses out to DCT on downshifts as higher torques are applied to save the transmission. Its small packaging is its own demise.

This is a clear step backwards in performance and driving pleasure. I know I'm not going to be buying G8x because nothing it offers seem to be better than higher revving S55 equipped F8x M3/M4. How in the world are they going to make the car lighter than CFRP driveshaft, hood, and trunk equipped RWD F8x with G8x that has AWD, no CFRP driveshaft and cost cutting everywhere else?

BMW also knows they NEED MT to keep a substantial amount of M customers yet they make a big hype out of keeping MT and instead use that as an excuse to drop DCT. Remember we used to be able to option MT/DCT as standard not too long ago? They are planning to charge more for a heavier, less engaging car.

The car will be objectively good no doubt, but it won't be a great M car. They should be ashamed of the non-existent ingenuity in their signature products.

The car will be an Awesome Audi

[clee1982]

why handicap M2 man...

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Let the rant begin.

When it comes to ZF8 or DCT, It's not about the comparison of peak shift speed but about its consistency. DCT consistently shifts rapidly on every downshift/upshift request where ZF8 decides to shift a quarter second after a user input. You only need to drive F82 M4 and F90 M5 manually to notice this difference. ZF8 brutally loses out to DCT on downshifts as higher torques are applied to save the transmission. Its small packaging is its own demise.

This is a clear step backwards in performance and driving pleasure. I know I'm not going to be buying G8x because nothing it offers seem to be better than higher revving S55 equipped F8x M3/M4. How in the world are they going to make the car lighter than CFRP driveshaft, hood, and trunk equipped RWD F8x with G8x that has AWD, no CFRP driveshaft and cost cutting everywhere else?

BMW also knows they NEED MT to keep a substantial amount of M customers yet they make a big hype out of keeping MT and instead use that as an excuse to drop DCT. Remember we used to be able to option MT/DCT as standard not too long ago? They are planning to charge more for a heavier, less engaging car.

The car will be objectively good no doubt, but it won't be a great M car. They should be ashamed of the non-existent ingenuity in their signature products.

Doesn't the ZF8 Supra pretty well keep up to or exceed the times of a DCT equipped M2C on some tracks and comparisons? I've not heard of any Supra review where anyone has complained about delayed shifting as the transmission has been largely praised in that car. Also I have not seen this delay with my ZF8 equipped X3MC. The ZF8 is a better transmission for everywhere but the track and if you track your car a lot then you may have a beef as DCT's do downshift fractionally faster but if you don't then complaints like this are a bit of hot air.

[Moflow]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Doesn't the ZF8 Supra pretty well keep up to or exceed the times of a DCT equipped M2C on some tracks and comparisons? I've not heard of any Supra review where anyone has complained about delayed shifting as the transmission has been largely praised in that car. Also I have not seen this delay with my ZF8 equipped X3MC. The ZF8 is a better transmission for everywhere but the track and if you track your car a lot then you may have a beef as DCT's do downshift fractionally faster but if you don't then complaints like this are a bit of hot air.

I think the Supra is faster than the M2c because it rides on a newer chassis, has a shorter wheelbase, weighs less and has a lower center of gravity. The 2-series chassis is an older sport coupe chassis, while the Supra rides on a brand new sport car chassis.

That said, i too have not seen anyone complain about the transmission in the Supra beyond "we wish it were a manual."

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Doesn't the ZF8 Supra pretty well keep up to or exceed the times of a DCT equipped M2C on some tracks and comparisons? I've not heard of any Supra review where anyone has complained about delayed shifting as the transmission has been largely praised in that car. Also I have not seen this delay with my ZF8 equipped X3MC. The ZF8 is a better transmission for everywhere but the track and if you track your car a lot then you may have a beef as DCT's do downshift fractionally faster but if you don't then complaints like this are a bit of hot air.

Try braking hard into a corner then downshift sequentially with X3MC. It will lag. I'm not having that in my M3.

ZF8 is identical transmission in M240i(US spec) is identical and while I thought it was the fastest iteration of ZF8 I drove(only possible due to low torque, low boost setting of B58, notice the compression ratio of 11:1), I wasn't impressed by it. It will certainly not impress in new M3s that use higher torque application.

I do have to add I am an avid track guy. But this doesn't apply to just track driving, it also applies to daily driving when I want control over my car.