[89mustaine]

This is a slight tangent but on the subject of BMW's current business model. Comparing to FORD for example which has

Fiesta (2 and 4 Door)
Focus (2 and 4 sedan/hatch)
Fusion
Mustang (coupe/convertible)
C-Max
Taurus
Ford GT

They carry different names and badges across the world (Lincoln) but are essentially the same cars.

Whereas BMW now has the following

2 (Coupe/ Conv)
3 (sedan/wagon/GT)
4 (2/4,GT)
5 (Sedan, GT)
6 (Coupe,Grand Coupe,Conv,Gran Coupe)
7 (Two wheel bases)
Z4
X1
I-8
I-3

I included the X1 as it's essentially a wagon.

Does this not seem like a nightmare? No wonder they are more expensive as the cost of producing so many models must me momentous, is it possible that the quality is suffering? It does seem like they're just not as solid as they used to be. My 112k E60 feels more planted than its brand new equivalent and the materials inside certainly feel sub par.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

Reading through this thread again today and there's several great comments. Yes, BMW is growing marketshare and yes, they're doing it in a way that's anathema to it's roots. Regulations are strangling the auto industry from C02, to Pedestrian safety and beyond.

Yet isn't the ///M brand supposed to fly in the face of all that? Isn't it the sub-brand where BMW lets loose FOR the enthusiast? Or is BMW selling just as many M versions of each model that it statistically skews things for them?

Good points, agree that BMW is having to respond to more than what the enthusiast seems to want, all the regulatory stuff, plus customer demands. Getting that balance right won't please everyone. Do we want BMW 3-cylinder diesel/petrol engines over here in Europe? Of course we don't, but they give BMW more leeway for other models, allowing more folks to get into a BMW 'package' of their choice.

As to the M-car brand, I make an observation from the UK, even here BMW have to 'balance' the design brief to please the customer base. We often read comments that 'too hard core' and it turns the money off the cars. Many buy into the 'halo' models, but still want a practical daily driver. I often question in our UK market place, how many buy into the M-cars purely as a driving choice? I believe it is exactly the same reasons as to why folks desire to drive the BMW brand, certainly applies over here in the UK, where BMW is still an aspirational brand. Fickle it may be, but BMW are supplying the goods folks want.

Let's add a few more 'half-way' M-models like the M235i. I'm sure models like an M340i, M540i, etc., will sell like hotcakes, even if they aren't perfect for the BMW purists.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by 89mustaine

Does this not seem like a nightmare? No wonder they are more expensive as the cost of producing so many models must me momentous, is it possible that the quality is suffering? It does seem like they're just not as solid as they used to be. My 112k E60 feels more planted than its brand new equivalent and the materials inside certainly feel sub par.

What I observe, it is not simply the model range, but specification and option 'choice' which makes buying much more confusion. Good in some ways, but does mean some actual examples leave a lot to be desired.

Take your comment on the E60, compared to I assume an F10? Your comment is honest, but a bit broad brush, what model vs. what model? I've a bit of experience where I know specification and options make so much difference. I have tried E60 models where I was not impressed at all and F10 models which I'm sure would leave you with the opposite opinion.

Even comparing models from the same range is bad enough, I believe many users don't get what they really want (or expect), simply due to specifying it poorly for their needs.

As an example we can't even get a consensus as to whether VSS is a good or bad steering system, even if it is clearly the 'sport' option.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by bd307

Late to the party, but here are my 0.02.

A successful company creates a demand.

Can you say the same for BMW and its products? I would say yes. They created the demand for sport sedans and now trying to create a demand for luxury electric cars. Perhaps a luxury electric/hybrid sport sedans. I do not think Tesla is a luxury brand, but a technology company selling high priced tech. products.

Can BMW keep up the demand with their customers and enthusiasts? Maybe not because the competition and technologies are so much better now in the sport sedan segment. Other companies who were playing catch up are pretty caught up with them by now.

To continue with their legacy, they should be looking out and create another demand and I think BMW has been doing that but still in progress.

Tesla created a demand (for a not shit box, desirable electric car). BMW is trying, and thus far failing, to chase the electric car ball.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Many buy into the 'halo' models, but still want a practical daily driver. I often question in our UK market place, how many buy into the M-cars purely as a driving choice? I believe it is exactly the same reasons as to why folks desire to drive the BMW brand, certainly applies over here in the UK, where BMW is still an aspirational brand. Fickle it may be, but BMW are supplying the goods folks want.

Not sure how it is in the UK, but here in the USA, BMW doesn't really "sell" high end cars anymore -- they're essentially rental cars, i.e. leased. BMW "sells" them to themselves through BMW Financial Services. In the major metropolitan markets like NYC area, lease rates on high end models are in the 80% range. There are very few "car buyers" anymore of these products new from BMW. They hope to find an actual buyer once the car comes off lease in ~3 years.

Hence, trying to define a "new car buyer" is essentially not possible nor particularly relevant to BMWNA...it's what attracts the lessee into the door (doodads, tech, "status", etc, etc, with very little to do with the actual act of truly driving the car necessary to be concerned with) that is all that matters for the most part.

[Outlaw 06]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

Reading through this thread again today and there's several great comments. Yes, BMW is growing marketshare and yes, they're doing it in a way that's anathema to it's roots. Regulations are strangling the auto industry from C02, to Pedestrian safety and beyond.

Yet isn't the ///M brand supposed to fly in the face of all that? Isn't it the sub-brand where BMW lets loose FOR the enthusiast? Or is BMW selling just as many M versions of each model that it statistically skews things for them?

Regulations are strangling the auto industry equally, but many other performance car manufacturers (other than BMW) are still embracing their motorsport heritage by producing special, track-ready, vehicles with highly engineered, high performance, naturally aspirated engines for enthusiasts.

See: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...an-get-today/?. In addition to these 10 amazing cars, there are many other great, affordable, naturally aspirated performance cars still being produced including the Ford Mustang GT, Suburu BRZ, Mazda Miata and others.

Unfortunately, BMW has chosen a different path by completely embracing the cheap, low-tech, horsepower gains that forced induction provides (mated to vehicles with overly soft suspensions and poor steering feedback).

If I never needed more than two seats, I'd buy a naturally aspirated 2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata Sport over anything BMW is producing today.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

If I never needed more than two seats, I'd buy a naturally aspirated 2016 Mazda MX-5 Miata Sport over anything BMW is producing today.

Still would you want to drive long distances in it very often?

That's just the thing, there's no one perfect "tool for every job", every need and every budget. In my opinion, that's what current BMW cars seem to be about, be good at most things. Most cars in current lineup comparing to competition are good, some great at "most things". They just aren't focusing only on enthusiasts who track their cars and are after driving feel only. Not as much as they used to anyway.

[OutlawX3M]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

Not sure how it is in the UK, but here in the USA, BMW doesn't really "sell" high end cars anymore -- they're essentially rental cars, i.e. leased. BMW "sells" them to themselves through BMW Financial Services. In the major metropolitan markets like NYC area, lease rates on high end models are in the 80% range. There are very few "car buyers" anymore of these products new from BMW. They hope to find an actual buyer once the car comes off lease in ~3 years.

Hence, trying to define a "new car buyer" is essentially not possible nor particularly relevant to BMWNA...it's what attracts the lessee into the door (doodads, tech, "status", etc, etc, with very little to do with the actual act of truly driving the car necessary to be concerned with) that is all that matters for the most part.

True that leasing is more popular with luxury brands yet on BMW's balance sheet isn't a lease is the same as a retail sale? It's just a different payment structure and contract than a traditional loan. So at the end of the year, if they lease 500k cars and retail 500k cars, they sold 1 million cars on their balance sheet. That's what matters to the stakeholders (investors) -- how much metal did they move?

[BMW also offers balloon financing which is a lease-like purchase. It's called BMW Select.]

Even with your perspective -- which I believe is a factor btw, the M brand shouldn't be affected by lease vs retail IMO. This misses my point. The audience of the M brand is the enthusiast. Other manufacturers are going full throttle WITH their loyal enthusiasts (Ford, Dodge, Corvette to name a few as I'm in the US). They drive a cult-like following that's engaged with their brand at the grassroots level. I don't see that with BMW (or Mercedes or Audi to be honest).

I've owned 2 SRTs in my life (Jeep GC and Challenger). Both vehicles came with a complimentary track day experience currently from Bondurant! I purchased both vehicles and within the first month received an email from the SRT Driving Experience to register with my VIN (only 1 event within the 1st year of ownership). It's a total blast! I won the autocross event and placed 2nd in another event and came home with some fun prizes.

BMW has what, 2 events like this in the US and I found out about them from the forum -- no email. Nothing from my CA. Where's the engagement?

Also the SRT engineers would travel to meet-n-greets and host a town hall meeting. They would sit and answer any question on your car. Of course, they could never comment on "new" developments but they would answer questions like the one here regarding spring rates on the ZCP and how to adjust if lowering.

They also attended online "chats" where they would visit a forum like this and answer any questions that were posted. They are car folks just like us --- where's BMW's version of this?

Where are the ///M ambassadors? The ones engaging the enthusiast community and bringing the feedback to the engineers? Product development with little or no formal feedback channel is development in a lab devoid of reality. After a few iterations, you end up with a product that's washed down compared to its storied history.

That's what I'm reading on this forum -- the X version was better at this, they Y version did that. A lot of moaning that's making me question if I picked the right car some days. Then I go out, fire up the engine and drive off -- after the first mile I realize this is the best overall performance oriented daily driven car I've owned to date.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

True that leasing is more popular with luxury brands yet on BMW's balance sheet isn't a lease is the same as a retail sale? It's just a different payment structure and contract than a traditional loan. So at the end of the year, if they lease 500k cars and retail 500k cars, they sold 1 million cars on their balance sheet. That's what matters to the stakeholders (investors) -- how much metal did they move?

[BMW also offers balloon financing which is a lease-like purchase. It's called BMW Select.]

Even with your perspective -- which I believe is a factor btw, the M brand shouldn't be affected by lease vs retail IMO. This misses my point. The audience of the M brand is the enthusiast. Other manufacturers are going full throttle WITH their loyal enthusiasts (Ford, Dodge, Corvette to name a few as I'm in the US). They drive a cult-like following that's engaged with their brand at the grassroots level. I don't see that with BMW (or Mercedes or Audi to be honest).

I wasn't referring to BMW's financial side of things, since over the short run they're likely better off leasing as many as possible; instead I was thinking of how leased cars are often treated like what they are to the typical person leasing it -- a rental car. There is zero incentive to care deeply about a car you're going to ditch in 30 month's time for the vast majority. Cold start and 60 seconds later wind it out to redline at full throttle getting on the Interstate with cold oil? No problem, car is under warranty through the lease period, who cares what happens to it? Etc. The "customer" is much different than someone who is deeply attracted to a car and writes a check for it.

As to engagement, I agree with you. Aside from the BMW CCA major events where BMWNA is a presence, I don't see it either. You'd think that they would maintain contact with someone who has driven BMWs since Max Hoffman days, has purchased them new and used from BMW dealers, currently owns four, two of which are iconic M-cars? One would think they'd offer drive events with the latest M-cars, ask for input and feedback, etc.

I guess that would be true if it mattered, but I don't think it really matters to them what rabid car enthusiasts think and feel, nor does it matter to court traditional enthusiasts with events like you mention. If it did actually matter, we'd not be asking these questions.

[Mark]

Bob Lutz jumps in on the debate ...

Dear Bob,

Do you think BMW is going the way of the bean counters nowadays with the introduction [not in the U.S.] of the front-wheel-drive 2-series and soon-to-be-released 1-series?–Rafael Akopyan Havana, Cuba

Answer:
BMW has ceased to be a company designing responsive, sporting cars for enthusiasts. It has gone mainstream, which, from a shareholder's perspective, has been a good move. The brand is greatly respected, and BMW earned that respect. Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers. Taut ride, superb handling, sharp steering, and symphonic-quality engine sound have mostly fallen by the wayside; today's BMW customer neither notices nor cares. Front-wheel drive, minivans, small pickups—all toxic to the original owner base—are possible and will/would sell just fine.

Source: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...bob-lutz-july/

[OutlawX3M]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

I wasn't referring to BMW's financial side of things, since over the short run they're likely better off leasing as many as possible; instead I was thinking of how leased cars are often treated like what they are to the typical person leasing it -- a rental car. There is zero incentive to care deeply about a car you're going to ditch in 30 month's time for the vast majority. Cold start and 60 seconds later wind it out to redline at full throttle getting on the Interstate with cold oil? No problem, car is under warranty through the lease period, who cares what happens to it? Etc. The "customer" is much different than someone who is deeply attracted to a car and writes a check for it.

As to engagement, I agree with you. Aside from the BMW CCA major events where BMWNA is a presence, I don't see it either. You'd think that they would maintain contact with someone who has driven BMWs since Max Hoffman days, has purchased them new and used from BMW dealers, currently owns four, two of which are iconic M-cars? One would think they'd offer drive events with the latest M-cars, ask for input and feedback, etc.

I guess that would be true if it mattered, but I don't think it really matters to them what rabid car enthusiasts think and feel, nor does it matter to court traditional enthusiasts with events like you mention. If it did actually matter, we'd not be asking these questions.

Well, to a point you're correct about how some lessee's treat their vehicle and I guess I'm sitting here thinking -- I don't do that! The ones you're referring to hand it their vehicle and get whooped on the head for excessive wear and tear. Not me brother.

Trust me, I treat my M3 as much care as those who own because of that reason alone and because I'm a "car guy" so how I treat her says something about me. I posted here on the forum how I park like a pussy -- yeah, that front lip is expensive to replace so yes, I am proud to park like a pussy

Now I'm just fighting the itch to mod this baby... I thought leasing would keep that from happening but you guys are a bad influence

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by Mark

Bob Lutz jumps in on the debate ...

Source: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...bob-lutz-july/

One of the driving forces in creating the M division.

... As well as being one of the consistently best people in the automotive industry.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by Mark

Bob Lutz jumps in on the debate ...

Source: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...bob-lutz-july/

When someone like Bob Lutz jumps ship on BMW...funny how he would enter into this conversation when I was just mentioning Max Hoffman.

Quoting Bob Lutz again since I think he makes some important points we've all been discussing herein:

Bob Lutz:
"BMW has ceased to be a company designing responsive, sporting cars for enthusiasts. It has gone mainstream, which, from a shareholder's perspective, has been a good move. The brand is greatly respected, and BMW earned that respect. Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers. Taut ride, superb handling, sharp steering, and symphonic-quality engine sound have mostly fallen by the wayside; today's BMW customer neither notices nor cares. Front-wheel drive, minivans, small pickups—all toxic to the original owner base—are possible and will/would sell just fine."

His reference to a shareholder's perspective is cloudy at the current time since BMW stock peaked in March of 2015 and fell as much as ~45% into earlier this year and has only slightly rebounded since and is currently trading at the level it was at 4+ years ago. With the ECB buying BMW debt, they are benefiting from the central bank's largess at the current time too.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I had a 2006 E46 M3 for eight years before I got my M4. I loved that car and hated to see it go, but after I got the M4 I never looked back. The M4 is just so superior to the E46 M3 in every aspect, except maybe size.

Originally Posted by Obioban

Size, steering feel, size, throttle response/lag, size, ability to be worked on, size.

Don't think any of those are subjective.

Subjectively, I find the engine worse than... Any other M3, except maybe the US e36 M3 engine.

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

Your opinion - not mine.

Originally Posted by Obioban

In your opinion...
Does any generation M3 have worse steering feel than the f8x?
Does any generation M3 have worse throttle response than the f8x?
Is any generation M3 harder to work on than the f8x?

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

There is nothing wrong with the steering feel on my M4 - enjoy canyon carving with it as much as my E46 M3.

The throttle response in my M4 is excellent and with the torque, when you touch the throttle something happens - best of any BMW that I have owned.

I really don't care about working on it - I don't do my own work, but in 2 years it hasn't required any work.

I bet you are a lot of fun at car club events.

To be clear, this concisely explains what I meant by throttle response being objectively (not subjectively) worse in the F8X.

Start at 3:13 if you want to get to the meat of what I'm talking about.

... and that wasn't using a good throttle response NA car to start with (unlike a traditional NA M engine, all of which had AWESOME response).

Edit:

And on the topic of steering feel:
http://blog.caranddriver.com/steer-m...nl&date=072216

Steer Me, Feel Me: Exploring Why BMWs No Longer Excel in Steering Feel



Car and Driver’s affection for BMW sports sedans has cooled during the past five years as the Bavarians have shifted focus from hard-core driving enthusiasts to their growing throng of luxury customers. The unfortunate side effect is a diminished emphasis on the attributes we prize: an astute balance between a supple ride and laser-sharp handling; impeccable braking; and—most significant—a clear and concise dialogue between the driver and the road through the steering. To air our grievances, we met with BMW driving-dynamics expert Johann Kistler. While his current assignment is as project director for the new 2017 BMW 5-series, due for introduction later this year, Kistler guided development of the past two generations of 7-series sedans and was responsible for the move to electric power steering (EPS) for the current (F30) 3-series, which was introduced for the 2013 model year. Kistler began our conversation on the Car and Driver wavelength—by reflecting on the 1974 BMW 1602 owned by his wife: “This is her favorite and quite an amazing car. “That car is what we started with, all the feedback you can get. There’s no support [power assistance], so you have a lot of force. To remedy that, we added hydraulic assistance, and you get all the messages from the road delivered to the car. That means good information and bad information. When we moved to EPS, we learned how to divide the good and bad messages for the customer.” Asked to cite an example of bad information, Kistler explained: “Lines in the road with an orientation parallel to the car’s path cause what we call ‘pull drift.’ The tires try to follow the lines instead of the direction selected by the driver through the steering wheel. While that’s difficult to address with hydraulic power steering, with EPS we can install what we call pull-drift compensation to help keep the car locked on a straight path instead of following longitudinal grooves. “We’ve learned a lot about refining EPS since it was introduced four years ago. One is a new calibration philosophy that allows easy adjustment of the required steering torque. This makes a major difference in the feel of the new 5-series. There would be no chance to match those results with hydraulic assist.”



Attempting to shift the focus from steering effort to the feedback routed from the pavement to the driver’s hands, I asked if any EPS strides had been made in that specific area. Kistler responded: “We surveyed both current BMW 5-series customers and owners of competitive models, asking, ‘What are your wishes?’ We have two million customers around the globe who’ve purchased the 5-series during the past five years, which results in a broad spread of demands. Our job is to fulfill those mainstream needs. “There was a clear request for less steering effort. No one wants bad feedback—such as a steering wheel that vibrates in response to bumps in the road.”
“
What enthusiasts pine for is the steering feel from an earlier generation, when the rack-and-pinion system was hydraulically assisted.
”
I pointed out that few customers speak the engineering language we use to describe this area of car design. As a result, when the subject of steering is addressed, the most common thought popping into their heads is how easy the car is to park. The fear among driving enthusiasts, which I shared with Kistler, is that BMW is now heading in the Lexus direction (and some Lexus models, such as the IS sedan, are much closer to BMW’s former steering tuning). What enthusiasts pine for is the steering feel from an earlier generation, when the rack-and-pinion system was hydraulically assisted. “It’s not our intention to go the Lexus way,” he said. “We expect to be the sportiest example in every car class we compete in. This is the BMW way. We do study how competitors tune their cars, but the goal is always to deliver authentic BMW driving pleasure. “One current priority is reduced weight. We work hard on the suspension, the steering, and the engines—all crucially important to the character we’re seeking. “The real challenge was reducing the effort without diminishing feedback. We used new simulation methods to model and optimize the body structure. Collaboration between the chassis and body experts helped perfect the suspension connection points. We also simulated suspension kinematics and learned a lot from that. “With the next generation of run-flat tires, we reduced their driving range to 50 miles to lower sidewall stiffness and its negative effect on ride and handling. The goal was lower steering effort with better information from the road. We call this development—which begins with simulation and ends with final driving refinement—mechanical integration. “The area we call mechatronics encompasses the electronic systems interconnected by data communication—brakes, variable dampers, and four-wheel steering. A team uses computer software to integrate these parts of the car.”



Without specifically discussing our complaint that feedback has been missing since the arrival of EPS, Kistler shifted the conversation to steering precision. In this specific area, BMW still excels. Following turn-in, the effort builds nicely, and no steering-wheel adjustment or correction is necessary to hit and hold the desired arc. I forced his thoughts back to feedback—the subtle information about how hard the tires are working, whether they’re approaching the adhesion limit, and specifically what’s going on where the rubber meets the asphalt. Kistler responded: “Translated to German, the English word ‘feedback’ encompasses the car’s precision, how quickly it responds, basically everything the car does. It’s a large cake, while what you’re addressing is one thin, specific slice. “My personal opinion is, we’re providing enough feedback to our mainstream customers. Some drive 30,000 miles per year in their BMWs, including long trips at high speeds. So the strongest demand we heard was, ‘Please reduce the steering effort.’ They seem to want more isolation.”

Then Kistler asked if I believe any current BMW provides the feedback I expect. When I answered no, he asked if that included current M models, especially the M2. I reported our deep appreciation of the M, sharing specific comments from our test of the 2016 M2 and our disappointment in that car’s distinct lack of feedback. Asked for an example of some current EPS car that offered what we’re seeking, I nominated the current range of Porsches—the Boxster, the Cayman, the 911, even the Macan. Kistler did show appreciation for our frank discussion. He concluded the conversation with a promise to focus on learning more about this issue. “We have many BMW fans in America,” he said. “It’s worthwhile to me to understand and to meet their demands. So I will take your feedback concerns with me and think about them. And I will discuss with my team how we can move in this direction without sacrificing other customer benefits.”

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

His reference to a shareholder's perspective is cloudy at the current time since BMW stock peaked in March of 2015 and fell as much as ~45% into earlier this year and has only slightly rebounded since and is currently trading at the level it was at 4+ years ago.

I think he means it in a broader view. compare todays bmw AG to what bmw AG was is the 80's or 90's or early 00's.
It makes/sells about twice the amount of cars today as it did at the end of the 90's.
He basically says they're selling out on the name they've earned, not the name they're earning today. Only the future will tell if that's a good strategy.
They're pleasing the shareholders. The only thing you can do as a consumer is look for a car/brand that may suit your needs more.
BMW used to be king of the track with their M models but those days are gone. For far less money you can have an equally matched 4 seater for sporty performance. Ipod and facebook integration might be less advanced though but you can keep 20k in your pocket.

[bd307]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Tesla created a demand (for a not shit box, desirable electric car). BMW is trying, and thus far failing, to chase the electric car ball.

Most people would think Tesla is successful at doing it, but I differ. Just look at their profit reports. They maybe successful at brand recognition (like in 2015 and that is no longer the case for 2016), but certainly not from a business standpoint. I admire their vision though.

People are selling their Tesla after owning them for less than 12 months at a rate higher than, let's say BMW, because of their interior quality at that price range.

You pay a price for newest technology and that's what Tesla customers paid for.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by bd307

Most people would think Tesla is successful at doing it, but I differ. Just look at their profit reports. They maybe successful at brand recognition (like in 2015 and that is no longer the case for 2016), but certainly not from a business standpoint. I admire their vision though.

People are selling their Tesla after owning them for less than 12 months at a rate higher than, let's say BMW, because of their interior quality at that price range.

You pay a price for newest technology and that's what Tesla customers paid for.

Can you name a faster growing car company in the last 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

What Tesla has accomplished, with extremely limited resources, is astounding. And world changing.

Yes, they haven't posted huge profits yet. That's because they're growing an entire company, from the bottom up, making things unlike anything that's been made before. Huge factories, new technologies, new platforms, new concepts.

Your thought process is exactly why so many companies are in trouble these days. Focusing on short term profits instead of long term viability and product. Investor think

[bd307]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Can you name a faster growing car company in the last 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

What Tesla has accomplished, with extremely limited resources, is astounding. And world changing.

Yes, they haven't posted huge profits yet. That's because they're growing an entire company, from the bottom up, making things unlike anything that's been made before. Huge factories, new technologies, new platforms, new concepts.

Your thought process is exactly why so many companies are in trouble these days. Focusing on short term profits instead of long term viability and product. Investor think

They got talents in their marketing and R&D departments.

I just do not believe in crowd-funding and that's basically what they do with the Model 3.

I have to disagree with your logic about the growing part. They have all these big visions (I use this term to represent the future) and spending so much money NOW before making a dime. Some can argue they are investing and that is fine, but they should be drawing a line somewhere which I just do not see that. All I feel is that they are just "investing" to bait people into their company without delivering.

I just do not run my businesses like that (and that is why I am no Elon ), but I guess that is because I do not want to run into debts real quick and I do not have the ball to file bankruptcy.