[SW17LS]

Yeah personally, I like new cars that I know haven't been driven and abused before. Especially with BMW too the leases are so good.

[tekphobius]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

I normally up 'til now I would only buy a 2YO lease return. However being where I am , and doing what I do has presented me with the unique opportunity to purchase a NEW 540Xi for the same or similar price I would pay for a 2YO lease return. Because of the tax-free program available to me, plus the BMW Discount for Service Members and Civil Service stationed overseas, I can buy (Have already paid for, just waiting for build and delivery) my NEW car, and take delivery and drive it tax-free in Spain for as long as I am stationed here. When I return to the US, The Government will ship it home for me for free, and I will pay taxes on the depreciated value of the car at the time in whatever state I move to. Most likely that will be back in Seattle, or San Diego.

Now, while I was in the process of deciding whether I wanted an Audi A-6, or a BMW 5er, I took the opportunity while visiting my Daughter in the SF Bay Area, to test drive both. While looking into it I noted that both vehicles require a break in period from new. However, the SR at both dealerships encouraged me to "Just Punch It" during the test drive to show off their power and acceleration of the engines. Is that not violating the break in? So if 30 people test drive that car could that not create reliability problems in those motors? Granted, most people who walk into these dealers test drive the top of the line, then look at the price tag and start looking at their less expensive models, and hope they will drive as well. (It's a sales tactic when a salesman KNOWS someone can't afford a specific car. They test drive them in the one they want, then show them them the one they can actually afford and tell them the only difference is......which they don't really need anyway.)

Not to mention the many people I have heard on this and other forums talking about how they abuse their Leased cars, because "It's just a lease. That's the next owner's problem" So they don't worry about preserving battery life, performing temporary Reversible mods to increase engine output, Taking their new cars to the track to test launch control, etc...

I am starting to re-think my prior policy on 2YO Lease returns. I think from now on I am only going to buy new cars. And I am going to custom order any cars I buy even if there is an identical one on the lot already, just to make sure the car I buy has not been beaten up, then made to look pretty. Maybe if I buy a car that the dealer ordered and it just came off the truck and has not been prepped yet, maybe I would buy off the lot if it had all the options I wanted.

Do you tend to hold onto your vehicles for a long time? I don't, so that's probably why I'm not against an off-lease CPO. I'll drive it for the three years and unlimited mileage on the warranty. When it's up, I'll get another one. I have no desire to own any out of warranty, so whether someone abused it before me doesn't really matter to me. If I had an issue, which I haven't, BMW will fix the car and give me a loaner. I just couldn't imagine being the bloke that threw away over 30 grand in two years in depreciation. That's crazy talk.

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by tekphobius

Do you tend to hold onto your vehicles for a long time? I don't, so that's probably why I'm not against an off-lease CPO. I'll drive it for the three years and unlimited mileage on the warranty. When it's up, I'll get another one. I have no desire to own any out of warranty, so whether someone abused it before me doesn't really matter to me. If I had an issue, which I haven't, BMW will fix the car and give me a loaner. I just couldn't imagine being the bloke that threw away over 30 grand in two years in depreciation. That's crazy talk.

I do tend to hold on to them for awhile if they turn out good. I had a 2009 VW CC LUXE I held onto from 2011-2019. It was a CPO. It was a great car and the only reason I sold it was because I was moving to Spain and I could only ship one US Spec car. My 2013 Range Rover Sport I bought in 2015 (CPO also) for my wife, and we still have it. It was the last year of the 5.0L Naturally aspirated V-8 before Tata motors took over Land Rover and ruined it by making them all look like different sizes of the same vehicle.

The key is what do they cost new, and what will they cost at 2 years old. In my case I was looking at the prices of a 2022 540iX and I could get a new 2024 for just a few thousand more + Tax Free while I am here + lower, if any used car tax when I ship it back to the states (Depends on the state and how old the car is when I ship it back). Plus I was looking at all the advantages of owning a new car now, and paying it off, then buying my wife a new car when we got back to the US, and it all clicked. So I ordered my new car.

It was seeing how the Sales Reps treat the cars during the test drives, by not respecting the break-in periods, and hearing what Lessees say on this forum about how they treat their Leases, that made me remember some of the initial issues I had when I bought my CPO cars that are leading me to believe I am better off buying from now on.

[M4Lou]

Originally Posted by Ginster6

for business write off. and able to get new vehicle every 3 years.

If you own it - you can depreciate it as a business expense.

[AiredaleDad]

Originally Posted by M4Lou

If you own it - you can depreciate it as a business expense.

True. My wife does it for her Range Rover as she owns her business and uses it to visit suppliers and deliver to Clients.

[Germanauto]

Judging by the types of people I saw at BMW house at Monterey Car Week...

Because the overwhelming majority of BMW drivers are fake rich and leasing is the only way they'd be able to be seen behind the wheel of a higher status car.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by M4Lou

If you own it - you can depreciate it as a business expense.

You can but its more complicated and has more potential drawbacks. The lease is very simple to write off as an expense.

[gohawks23]

Most BMW leases these days on ICE vehicles just aren't 'good'. ICE leases now generally have high MF, low RVs and minimal incentives. Make sure you actually know how to lease and be able to put together your own target payment and DAS with a lease calc or spreadsheet...or the dealer will take advantage of you!

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by gohawks23

Most BMW leases these days on ICE vehicles just aren't 'good'. ICE leases now generally have high MF, low RVs and minimal incentives. Make sure you actually know how to lease and be able to put together your own target payment and DAS with a lease calc or spreadsheet...or the dealer will take advantage of you!

They are still industry leading

[gohawks23]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

They are still industry leading

Numbers (MF, RV, incentives) change monthly amongst all brands/models so that statement doesn't really mean much. More importantly, when shopping people should really know how to put a lease payment/DAS together so they can do the comparisons with real data. So many people who lease have no idea how to calculate a payment/DAS and get taken for a ride.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by gohawks23

Numbers (MF, RV, incentives) change monthly amongst all brands/models so that statement doesn't really mean much. More importantly, when shopping people should really know how to put a lease payment/DAS together so they can do the comparisons with real data. So many people who lease have no idea how to calculate a payment/DAS and get taken for a ride.

Everyboody's numbers change monthly, and BMWs are still always the best leases relative to their MSRPs out of all the luxury marques.

I am as experienced a leaser as you will find and can calculate everything, on anything I have shopped BMWs still lease the best. I could have had a same MSRP 760 for $400 a month less than I'm paying for my S580, for example.X7 and X5 are also considerably cheaper to lease than a comparable GLE or GLS.

[gohawks23]

Well BMW leases used to be no brainers in TCO vs finance/cash and that isn't the case for awhile now. I've been writing checks for heavily discounted low mileage one year old CPOs with 4yr unlimited mileage warranties these days which makes more fiscal sense than current 'luxury' ICE leases.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by gohawks23

Numbers (MF, RV, incentives) change monthly amongst all brands/models so that statement doesn't really mean much. More importantly, when shopping people should really know how to put a lease payment/DAS together so they can do the comparisons with real data. So many people who lease have no idea how to calculate a payment/DAS and get taken for a ride.

You should elaborate and help people out.

[gohawks23]

Originally Posted by DrVenture

You should elaborate and help people out.

It's just leasing 101 stuff that can easily be googled but people don't put time in to understand so they end up handing extra 1000s to dealers...basically how to put a lease spreadsheet together or just use a lease calculator to come up with your own target payment/DAS. Pretty simple stuff really...get base MF and term RV from Edmunds lease forums and plug into calc along with expected discount off MSRP along with any incentives and know the target payment/DAS long before even engaging with a dealer. MSDs also can provide a good ROI reducing the MF.

Leasehackr wiki is a good site to learn at.

I've thought about starting up a consulting biz to help people with their leases for a fee. It is truly amazing how many people sign lease contracts without a clue how the numbers work! Leases are the best thing auto dealers ever came up with to rake profits in from the uneducated.

[DrVenture]

Originally Posted by AiredaleDad

... I think from now on I am only going to buy new cars. And I am going to custom order any cars I buy even if there is an identical one on the lot already, just to make sure the car I buy has not been beaten up, then made to look pretty. Maybe if I buy a car that the dealer ordered and it just came off the truck and has not been prepped yet, maybe I would buy off the lot if it had all the options I wanted.

There is another significant advantage to ordering, which is not getting a plethora of options you don't need or want. And getting all the ones that you do. I did this when purchasing my wife's last car. The dealer offered to build me one at the same discounted price they were offering for similar cars on the lot - about 10% off MSRP (it was slow season - Feb).

Most had things the wife would never use, like towing package, roof crossbars, moonroof, etc. We ordered exactly what we wanted in the exterior and interior colors she chose. probably knocked a couple thousand off the price. Then I took 0% financing.

Now that dealers are cutting the number of cars on lots, I think they are more amenable to special orders.

When it comes to buying a car that has been beat on, that is always possibility. And some cars are more likely to be abused on test drives, than others. Still, the whole "break-in" thing may be a bit exaggerated. I've bought lots of new cars and never paid it any mind. Abuse is a whole other thing.

Which leads me to when I bought my GT500. The SA took me to the filling station for a full tank of premium. On the way back I took a left turn from a light in a power slide and the dude looked like this:

[AiredaleDad]

I firmly believe that whether you lease or buy a car, it's important to do your homework. Research the car, the prices, go on Edmunds or KBB. Then look at what kind of financing you can get. If you walk in knowing yo have a pre-approved check in your pocket (Don't tell the SA that) and a firm price in your head that you simply WILL NOT GO OVER! you can get a good deal. But you have to be willing to walk away. Use the salesman as a tool to show you the car, test drive it, and grant you access to the FM, not a fountain of information. He wants to make that commission. It's a game. I learned the tricks of the trade, not to sell cars, but not to be taken advantage of.

When you walk in as an "UP!" and just say oooh Pretty, he has the upper hand. Don't ask him how much. Tell him what you want. Don't ask his advice, tell him your wants and don't wants. If he breaks out the 4 square sheet, tell him you already have all that figured out and have your own financing. Don't waste the paper. Test drive the car you can afford, or want. Do not let him show you a higher model just because you are curious. He will try to convince you he can make it work, or he will wow you with that fully loaded car with the 6 and when he finds out you can't afford it, he will tell you that the lesser equipped model is "Just as good, but it ONLY doesn't have xyz options you don't really need anyway." YOU need to drive the sale and stay in control. If you don't know the facts when you walk in you will get taken advantage of. Don't ask him the price. Tell him what you are willing to pay, and walk away if he says "I can't do that, let me talk to my manager, ill be right back. And if you are making a trade never give them your keys to have them check out your car and make you an offer. They will drive your car around back, hook it up to a computer for 5 minutes and know what they will pay for it, and leave it there forever until they can try to wear you down. It's another trick of the trade.

When you get to the finance Dept, remember, the Finance manager makes commission on post sales add-ons. Tinted windows are NOT cheaper at the dealer. Same for Ceramic coatings, Clear Bra etc. Prices on the extended warranty and service packages are negotiable. Only accept their financing if the APR/Payments is better than the deal you already have with your bank. Do not let them run your credit until you are ready to sign. Know what your credit score is before you go. Every time they run credit on you knocks at least 3 points. Keep in mind BMW credit is good if you have Excellent credit. If you have average, or good, you will not get a prime rate. If you know what it is, you can tell them, they can get deals based on that contingent on your credit being what you say it is. Otherwise they will run several banks to see which one will fund you. And they run the ones they have Kickback deals with first. Then once you are ready to close, let them run your credit, or use your pre-approval check.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by gohawks23

I've thought about starting up a consulting biz to help people with their leases for a fee.

I have considered the same thing, but theres not a lot of money to be made there.

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

Because a car is not just an appliance, its something that many of us really enjoy. So, we want what we want and we pay what that costs. I don't want to drive the same car for 5, 10, 15, 20 years. If you're happy doing that then you should do that.

Note that people who buy and lease new cars never try and convince others that they should buy and lease new cars...its always the other way around. You are right, buying a used car and keeping it forever is much cheaper...just don't want to do that.

Don’t even acknowledge some of these morons…..did this guy above really ask why renting a home is different than renting a car? FFS 🤦

[mjr24]

Originally Posted by SW17LS

I have considered the same thing, but theres not a lot of money to be made there.

You are like 5 years late.

[Dégoûté]

Originally Posted by mjr24

Don’t even acknowledge some of these morons…..did this guy above really ask why renting a home is different than renting a car? FFS 🤦

I was trying to teach you. Alas.

[SW17LS]

Originally Posted by mjr24

Don’t even acknowledge some of these morons…..did this guy above really ask why renting a home is different than renting a car? FFS ��

LOL, I find it entertaining.

I find arguing with "Dave Ramsey" types interesting. It all goes down to most people don't have enough discipline to use financial tools to their benefit, for people like them that kind of "debt bad!" thinking works because without it they would be up to their eyeballs in debt. Using debt to free up capital to invest only works for people who will use the capital to invest, not spend. Most people can't. When they argue that debt is bad to people like us they can't get anywhere because the benefits of using debt wisely are undeniable. The key is wisely and they can't envision that any debt is wise.

Originally Posted by mjr24

You are like 5 years late.

I've considered it for a lot longer than 5 years. How much can you realistically charge? $500? Its just not worth my time. I do it for friends and family for free.

Originally Posted by Dégoûté

I was trying to teach you. Alas.

LOL, you don't have anything to teach us thanks.

[Windshieldfarmer]

I’ve been in finance my whole life and understand the leasing game…and leasing is often a far less desirable choice. Without a doubt thise who lease because they can’t otherwise afford a new vehicle are foolish.

That said there are many good reasons to lease. I leased my IX because the lease was heavily incentivized by BMW and the lease is the only way to take advantage of a large tax credit (due to a loophole in the IRA). The MF was far lower than what I earn on my investments and the lease has the additional benefit of eliminating unknown depreciation. I already suspect the residual value on my lease was overestimated which means my depreciation exposure is lower than if I had purchased outright. Another benefit, anytime you own an expensive vehicle there is huge diminished value risk if your vehicle is wrecked (not the case with a lease provided it’s repaired properly). Additionally for me, the EV experience is a bit of an unknown and I wanted the ability to walk away without obligation.

I have the money to buy outright but the lease was a far better option for me financially and pragmatically.