[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by kyrix1st

Last thing I want is M car becoming a poser car for people who cannot drive. It should be the car inspiring one to be a better driver by encouraging drivers to push the limits with visceral sensation. Stick with normal BMWs for smooth operating cars.

It has been a poser car for people who cannot drive ever since the late 90's with people and their auto E36 M3's.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan

It has been a poser car for people who cannot drive ever since the late 90's with people and their auto E36 M3's.

That's why US spec M3s are considered 330is.

[Redd]

To be fair, not all dual-clutch transmissions shift as quickly as M-DCT. Try the gearbox in a GTR or AMG car, they all exhibit delays.

The fact of the matter is that we've all been a bit spoilt by how good M-DCT is. It's a close second to PDK with other dual-clutchers lagging further behind. In general, ZF8 is better than most dual-clutch 'boxes, even if it is a bit laggy compared to M-DCT and PDK.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by Redd

To be fair, not all dual-clutch transmissions shift as quickly as M-DCT. Try the gearbox in a GTR or AMG car, they all exhibit delays.

The fact of the matter is that we've all been a bit spoilt by how good M-DCT is. It's a close second to PDK with other dual-clutchers lagging further behind. In general, ZF8 is better than most dual-clutch 'boxes, even if it is a bit laggy compared to M-DCT and PDK.

This.

M-DCT is arguably faster than the first generation PDK of 997s. After all, Getrag DCT transmission was originally developed to cater to the needs of Ferrari F458. The transmission control module (TCU) was developed accordingly to achieve consistent state-of-the-art shift speeds.
On the other hand, high-torque application ZF8s (ZF8-75HP) are what you find in the likes of VW Touareg/Cayenne; they are far from sports transmission. Drive any of these in manual mode, you get irritated within seconds due to slow shifting and put it in auto mode.
BMW's favorite marketing term "M-specific steptronic transmission" just means they had to tune the balls out of the ordinary ZF8 TCU to achieve something remotely acceptable from ZF8. It is fast for a ZF8 no doubt, but it is no DCT.

Hype is temporary, substance is perennial.

Compared to every generation of Ms that redefined driving dynamics through the extensive use of racing technology, this generation of M (starting F90) is diluted in that it struggles to propose any novel interpretation of the art of driving but rather react to and feed upon the ephemeral reminiscence of M's heydays, along with numerous cost-cutting in its presentation because "it is close enough".

I fear this generation of M won't be remembered fondly in the years to come.

[heavyD^2]

You are being a little disingenuous when you say that the ZF8 being installed in a Touareg/Cayenne makes it far from a sports transmission. You do realize it's a modular transmission and different internal clutch packs are used from application to application? Heck you can swap the torque converter for an electric motor in a hybrid application as the basic transmission is just the starting point to which internal hardware/software is selected based on the intentions of the implementation.

The ZF8 shifts as fast as most DCT's and the difference is simply in its refinement (not as abrupt and you lose the throttle blip) and the fact it's lighter than a DCT is a big bonus for a sporting application. The reality is that a millisecond quicker shifting from a DCT is more than offset by the heavier weight of the transmission in a sporting car application.

There are aspects of the DCT I really like such as the throttle blip and quickest downshifts possible but they are all clunky at times, the throttle tip-in lag sucks, and a lot of people simply don't like them in a daily driver. I personally have owned several from the old Getrag TC-SST in the EVO X which in SS-Mode shifted faster than the BMW versions to the VAG DSG's and I have enjoyed them despite their quirks. With the ZF8 I feel I am getting 98% of DCT the performance without the quirks so I don't think it's the end of the world as some are speculating if it's offered in the M3/M4.

[BPMSport]

ZF 8HP is without question a better option than the DCT gearboxes.

You should feel what a tuned 8HP gearbox is like.. DCT doesn't have a chance. With the gearshift intervention limiters completely removed, it bangs harder than an SMG and shifts faster than a DCT could dream of.

The 8HP is an incredible gearbox. DCT's have a real rough time holding up in applications with greater than 700 ft/lbs in the long run, while the 8HP continues to impress.

BMW's test run with the 8HP was in the E70 X5 50i, the first E series to get it. It was impressive back then and much improved now.

[kyrix1st]

Originally Posted by BPMSport

ZF 8HP is without question a better option than the DCT gearboxes.

You should feel what a tuned 8HP gearbox is like.. DCT doesn't have a chance. With the gearshift intervention limiters completely removed, it bangs harder than an SMG and shifts faster than a DCT could dream of.

The 8HP is an incredible gearbox. DCT's have a real rough time holding up in applications with greater than 700 ft/lbs in the long run, while the 8HP continues to impress.

BMW's test run with the 8HP was in the E70 X5 50i, the first E series to get it. It was impressive back then and much improved now.

I'm sure ZF8's ability to handle more torque is a dream to tuners, but I'm not looking for more power in any of my cars. ZF8 has a clear hardware limit of only being able to rev up to 7,300 rpm when oil cavitation starts to destroy the gearbox. I track my car and I want every rev possible from the engine.

I have also repeatedly stated my dissatisfaction of ZF8 isn't about the longitudinal acceleration in automatic mode, but its delayed response to manual shifts vs. DCT. It is good to know aftermarket software could resolve this issue, but then why wouldn't BMW release like that in the first place? I suspect it invokes a reliability issue that no longer justifies replacing DCT for reliability advantage.

Lastly, If the ZF8 was "so good", every supercar manufacturer would have adopted them long time ago despite packaging issues that some seem to point out. Simple fact is, it just doesn't have the traits that a keen driver appreciates.

[yami sukehiro]

what do you guys think the advertised 0-60 will be for this? Anywhere near the g80 m3cx that is around 3.1 (tested not advertised)?

[trey100]

Originally Posted by yami sukehiro

what do you guys think the advertised 0-60 will be for this? Anywhere near the g80 m3cx that is around 3.1 (tested not advertised)?

No way. Less power than a base 6MT G80 and same weight.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by BPMSport

ZF 8HP is without question a better option than the DCT gearboxes.

Porsche would definitely like to argue that.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by yami sukehiro

what do you guys think the advertised 0-60 will be for this?

Honestly don't care.

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Honestly don't care.

+1

[MadBimmeRad]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Honestly don't care.

I'm sorry, unless I misread the question, yami sukehiro was asking about the likely 0-60, not whether you cared or not. As such, if you don't have an intelligent response, don't respond at all please.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by yami sukehiro

what do you guys think the advertised 0-60 will be for this? Anywhere near the g80 m3cx that is around 3.1 (tested not advertised)?

Hmmm, nope!?

M3
XDrive
510 HP
Advertised 3.5

M2
SDrive
420-450 HP

...and you wonder if the M2 will be advertised near 3.1?

[yami sukehiro]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Hmmm, nope!?

M3
XDrive
510 HP
Advertised 3.5

M2
SDrive
420-450 HP

...and you wonder if the M2 will be advertised near 3.1?

Well more like within the ballpark of 3.1, like within 0.3 - 0.5s. The m240 advertises 382hp with a 4.1 0-60 but tested from what I've seen it can do it in 3.8 or even a little faster so will be interesting to see if they could get to say 3.4/3.5 with the m2 IF they make an AWD version at some point.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by yami sukehiro

Well more like within the ballpark of 3.1, like within 0.3 - 0.5s. The m240 advertises 382hp with a 4.1 0-60 but tested from what I've seen it can do it in 3.8 or even a little faster so will be interesting to see if they could get to say 3.4/3.5 with the m2 IF they make an AWD version at some point.

Yeah agreed it will be close but the advertised wont be quicker than the M3. I think the actual achieved will be anywhere from Advertised 3.9 (M3 is 3.8 so I wont be less I dont think).

Actual of course could be as low as 3.3, 3.4 and up but only if MXdrive but you did ask Advertised which currently on BMW trend seems to be about 0.4s off.

They're all getting quick!!!

[trey100]

Originally Posted by JustChris

Yeah agreed it will be close but the advertised wont be quicker than the M3. I think the actual achieved will be anywhere from Advertised 3.9 (M3 is 3.8 so I wont be less I dont think).

Actual of course could be as low as 3.3, 3.4 and up but only if MXdrive but you did ask Advertised which currently on BMW trend seems to be about 0.4s off.

They're all getting quick!!!

This is interesting as I could see the M240 with AWD being quicker than the M2 at least to 60 and the M2 catching up by 100 and passing by the 1/4 mile.

[BMWPGA84]

I'd imagine new M2 would be 3.9 / 4.0. It has to be faster than the m240i

M2 (2021) Comp RWD 405 HP 0-60 4.2

M2 (2021) CS RWD 444 HP 0-60 3.8

M3 Sedan RWD 473 HP 4.1

What will get them .2 - .3 faster than previous generation M2 Competition? I'd bet 425 HP will put them around 3.9 / 4.0.

[Datka]

Does anyone know what will be the approximate weight of the new m2?

[lzhmax]

Not really a fan of the new design, F87 FTW

[Vojta89]

Originally Posted by Datka

Does anyone know what will be the approximate weight of the new m2?

I would guess 30-40 kg over M240i non xdrive…
so let's say about 1750 kg will be 8AT version
and about 1725 kg with 6MT

Weight with fluids, full tank and without driver or passangers

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by Datka

Does anyone know what will be the approximate weight of the new m2?

It will be heavier than the F87, unfortunately that is a current trend.