[MmmmmM2]

I was able to attend BMW's M-Town tour at my local BMW dealership on Saturday. They had an M3 Comp X-Drive with performance exhaust, an i4 M50 and XM.

While it was quite a fun event, my time in the M3 made me realize something. That something is that in no way does the 8ZF measure up to the previous DCT. That transmission is absolutely lifeless and has no business being in a car like that.

Yes, the car was fast as hell and sounded a whole lot better than my M2C. Also, I am pretty sure there was something wrong with the steering as it felt absolutely dead and lifeless (the i4 M50 steering was better).

That said, if you are coming from a DCT, you are going to be very disappointed in the 8ZF....Well, at least I was.

[Game]

Been preaching the disappointment of going from DCT to the ZF8 to countless people.

Agree with everything you said.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by Game

Been preaching the disappointment of going from DCT to the ZF8 to countless people.

Agree with everything you said.

It's just disappointing. I get that the DCT is not as livable in everyday life, but it's just such a major difference when it comes to spirited driving.

I'm very disappointed because if I want to get a G87 down the road, I will have to buy the manual. I'm not against the manual, per se, but I haven't owned a manual car since 2014.

[Game]

Originally Posted by MmmmmM2

It's just disappointing. I get that the DCT is not as livable in everyday life, but it's just such a major difference when it comes to spirited driving.

I'm very disappointed because if I want to get a G87 down the road, I will have to buy the manual. I'm not against the manual, per se, but I haven't owned a manual car since 2014.

Yeah I would've considered the G87 in a DCT....wasn't interested in the ZF8 whatsoever. It's just a way more engaging transmission.

[Ravenseal]

Yeah. If the DCT was an option, I would have picked it over the manual. Don’t get me wrong about the 8ZF, it’s a good transmission, but it doesn’t match the character of a small M car. I could see it being better on the touring style cars like the M4/M5/M8, but not on an M2. Loved the DCT on my 335is and was really looking forward to experiencing it on a real M car. Now I’ll just have to row my own gears.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by Ravenseal

Yeah. If the DCT was an option, I would have picked it over the manual. Don’t get me wrong about the 8ZF, it’s a good transmission, but it doesn’t match the character of a small M car. I could see it being better on the touring style cars like the M4/M5/M8, but not on an M2. Loved the DCT on my 335is and was really looking forward to experiencing it on a real M car. Now I’ll just have to row my own gears.

I agree with all your points!

[JustinHEMI]

Done! (Bought the manual). I am considering watching how OG F87 prices go the next few years and picking up a DCT example as a side piece.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by JustinHEMI

Done! (Bought the manual). I am considering watching how OG F87 prices go the next few years and picking up a DCT example as a side piece.

It really just ruins a regular old torque converter automatic after driving the DCT.

The DCT is whiny and clunky but it gives it character!

Not to mention the lightning quick shifts.

[c1pher]

I’m so confused. Early reviews said how great the new M2 was and this new set of reviews says the car is numb and lifeless. I’m wondering f the first set was sugarcoated and now the unfiltered reviews are showing what PoS the new M2 is. I was hoping g it would get a little closer to being Porsche like in handling and feel while having its own personality.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by c1pher

I’m so confused. Early reviews said how great the new M2 was and this new set of reviews says the car is numb and lifeless. I’m wondering f the first set was sugarcoated and now the unfiltered reviews are showing what PoS the new M2 is. I was hoping g it would get a little closer to being Porsche like in handling and feel while having its own personality.

If you are talking about SavageGeese, you need to calibrate against the reviewers expectations. They thought the F87 was lifeless too, as well as the G8x. They have very high standards. It depends on what you expect.

If you want the M2 to be a Porsche/Lotus, no BMW car feels like that, and the M2 isn't for you.

If you care more about track performance, the numb feeling isn't going to impede your track time. The car is more insulated, but it's also predictable, capable and precise.

So it really depends on what you want.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by c1pher

I didn’t say I was looking for a Porsche. I own two. But BMW has been working on their electric steering rack for 10 years now, you’d expect their sportier cars to be able to provide some feedback.

It could be better, I'll admit. I just assume a not-small percentage of people don't mind, because BMW is far from dumb. If it were profitable to fix, I'm sure they would fix it.

99% of all cars out there these days have numb steering, people seem to like it that way, as weird as that seems to people like us. :shrug:

[moodyhank82]

They cannot build a car that pleases every different type of buyer but they can build derivates of the platform that might cater different tastes. Base G87 is a bargain G82, which suits my needs and expectations perfectly and creates that platform to build upon. No doubt there will be a Comp and/or CS and/or CSL or some other variant that will be more raw, exciting, loud, sharp, track-oriented, lighter, more powerful, more expensive.

All I personally wanted/needed was a cheaper BMW that has a manual transmission attached to the S58 (honestly I would be fine with the B58 too) and the M diff. Plus backseats for my kids, a reasonably quiet cabin, and a comfy enough ride not to annoy my wife. I got my wish, you might still get yours too...

[02M3ForMe]

I really like the ZF8 in the G87. 8 gears means it’s easy to keep the car in the powerband. Very smooth when driving normally, shifts hard and fast when driving hard (just don’t hit the limiter). It’s fun to call up shifts myself. No, it’s not PDK-sharp at the limit. Doesn’t bother me. I have both, and find myself grabbing the keys to the ZF8 car more often, though 6MT when on a pure fun drive. It’s effortless entertainment, which may be a minus for some. Not for me. Supreme fun daily all-arounder.

[m2ss]

Originally Posted by Squidget

99% of all cars out there these days have numb steering, people seem to like it that way, as weird as that seems to people like us. :shrug:

Somebody give this man a cookie...

[Humdizzle]

even though the manual is a carry over and like 10+ years old at this point, its still a better option than the auto. At least the manual can be modded to feel as good as porsche. You're kind of stuck with the ZF8 and its lazy downshifts no matter what.

If you've owned a DCT box its hard to go back to a traditional torque converter. Especially if you like driving around in manual mode. I'll concede that the ZF8 is better only when all the supercar manufacturers ditch their in house DCT units for it. But right now its a cost a cutting measure for BMW.

99% of people buying the auto g87 are just doing to put it in 'drive' and maybe in sport mode when they want to have some fun with kickdowns/launches. And for that the ZF8 is perfect.

[M2Cmtl]

I'm 100% manual fan boi here, but I was still impressed by the M2C DCT I test drove. The snapy nature of the gearbox makes the car feel really alive.

[MmmmmM2]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

I really like the ZF8 in the G87. 8 gears means it’s easy to keep the car in the powerband. Very smooth when driving normally, shifts hard and fast when driving hard (just don’t hit the limiter). It’s fun to call up shifts myself. No, it’s not PDK-sharp at the limit. Doesn’t bother me. I have both, and find myself grabbing the keys to the ZF8 car more often, though 6MT when on a pure fun drive. It’s effortless entertainment, which may be a minus for some. Not for me. Supreme fun daily all-arounder.

Oh I didn't say it was not fast, I said it is absolutely lifeless. It has 0 character. Super boring IMHO.

[Squidget]

Originally Posted by c1pher

My 2013 135is had wonderful steering and feedback, albeit it was a hydraulic rack.

As does my E90. But hydraulic racks aren't coming back, both for MPG and feature reasons. (Electric steering makes it easier to implement lane assist, etc., which the market now demands.)

So, electric steering is basically mandatory now on all but the smallest/cheapest cars. I don't really fault BMW for that.

But it DOES bug me that Porsche has mostly seemed to figure EPAS out, but no one else has. And I assume that's simply because Porsche drivers demanded it, while other drivers didn't care. So BMW spent their money elsewhere. But it's just a theory, I wish I knew for sure.

[c1pher]

Originally Posted by Squidget

As does my E90. But hydraulic racks aren't coming back, both for MPG and feature reasons. (Electric steering makes it easier to implement lane assist, etc., which the market now demands.)

So, electric steering is basically mandatory now on all but the smallest/cheapest cars. I don't really fault BMW for that.

But it DOES bug me that Porsche has mostly seemed to figure EPAS out, but no one else has. And I assume that's simply because Porsche drivers demanded it, while other drivers didn't care. So BMW spent their money elsewhere. But it's just a theory, I wish I knew for sure.

This was mainly my point, thank you for explaining better than me. I get it doesn't make sense for the regular BMWs or more luxury models. But M badged cars are supposed to have not only more capability but also sensory feedback.

[Chet for short]

I'm not sure I would consider the G87 if it was auto only, particularly a torque converter auto.

I did have a deposit on a Mk8 Golf R. In that car I would prefer the DSG, but not in an M2.

...reminds me I need to get the deposit back on the VW. My G87 TR 6MT is in QC as of today.

[JustinHEMI]

Originally Posted by Chet for short

I'm not sure I would consider the G87 if it was auto only, particularly a torque converter auto.

I did have a deposit on a Mk8 Golf R. In that car I would prefer the DSG, but not in an M2.

...reminds me I need to get the deposit back on the VW. My G87 TR 6MT is in QC as of today.

I wouldn't which is why I jumped on one now. I'm pretty confident next iterations of G87 will be auto only (C/CS). No interest in that from me.

[M_Power Rob]

There are a lot of posts that seem to want to degrade people who have ordered a 8AT (not just in this thread but other threads). I know people love manuals but there are many reasons why people have ordered the 8AT and there is no wrong choice or reason for it.