[rk95]

So you're telling me if I'm #1 on my dealer list, I place my spec with buckets, I won't have my car until 3-4 months after March? Correct?

[boostspoon]

Originally Posted by 02M3ForMe

If you spec it like a 6MT F87 Comp with Exec pack, the G87 is only about $2k more (old car was $61.5k). If you factor in the standard moonroof, it's a $1k difference. If you build a comparable G87 to the old Comp DCT car, the G87 is cheaper since the ZF8 is standard now. That's before factoring in standard Adaptive M suspension (couldn't get it without spending $84k for a CS).

If you spec your G87 like an F87 CS, it's a $10k+ savings.

The OG shouldn't even be in the discussion, that was not much more than a pumped up M235i. Mirrors, seats, modified N55, etc.

You can leave every box unchecked and have a brand new S58-powered M2 with 6MT and Adaptive Suspension that will destroy the old car for $62k. This car is an excellent deal.

People want spec'd for the lowest possible price. The F87 Comp wasn't a traditional wallet opener of a luxury brand. It just hits different this time around being the styling is just so controversial.

There's gotta be more to why people aren't willing to open their wallets and it's likely the comparison of how not controversial the F87 Competition was in relation to every single thing on the G87

Here's to list some of my reserved thoughts on the G87:
- I love love love the side view of the car
- I'm okay with the rear, sometimes - but hate the carbon accessories
- I'm not a fan of the front bumper, but I can deal with it
- I hate the M colors on the interior door card, can that be turned off?
- I hate the M tri color std seats and prefer the F87 Comp. Would definitely want the carbon seats, but not with a $10k commit (esp knowing the M driver's pkg is bundled, jacking up the price)
- I'll stay neutral on the screen display just because the F87 tech is weak. But I hate how tacky it is...the feet on the back of the screen connecting to the dash looks like the feet on low-end tvs
- I hate the shift column, it just looks like cheap quality ripped from a korean auto brand
- I hate that manual and auto are the same price -- who got the better end of the stick here?
- I absolutely hate the rear brakes on this car and the G80

I have a F87 Comp and really don't mind spending ~7-10k difference after taxes for the G87. My name is on the list.

It's just a really tough one as despite all the issues I have with the G87, I would still love to own it. Of course, I'd need to let go of the F87 Comp.

Just helpless

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by M3WC

CS didn't have $4500 carbon buckets.

Originally Posted by carjoy

That CS was also 200lbs lighter and didn't need the carbon buckets. This fat cow definitely does lol

BMW bundled the seats instead of offering them separately, forcing buyers to pick all or nothing. If you don't mind then pony up.

You would be better off optioning the carbon roof if you are concerned about weight. Ditching the heavy moonroof will save more weight than the carbon buckets.

On M4, carbon roof saves 23kg(50lbs) vs moonroof equipped car. Carbon buckets only save 10kg(22lbs) vs standard M Sport seats.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by M3WC

You would be better off optioning the carbon roof if you are concerned about weight. Ditching the heavy moonroof will save more weight than the carbon buckets.

The weight saving advantage for the carbon fiber roof is minimal - 3lbs over a steel, non-sunroof alternative, according to BMW official technical training manual for the G80. This is a repair manual, not some polished BMW marketing brochure, so they have absolutely reason to bend the truth about this plain fact.

Being generous, I say the sunroof components adds maybe another 30lbs tops. Then you factoring the weight lost subtracted for the giant hold they have to cut out to accommodate the glass panel, It might almost be a wash opting for either/or sunroof on a steel top.

Maybe if the carbon roof was standard, like on the M4, I might of consider it but at $2,600, for a part that amounts to nothing more than eye candy, they can keep that shit. I would rather spend 1/3 of that money and have them install a sunroof in the back also, before I cough up that fee 😎


.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Poochie

The weight saving advantage for the carbon fiber roof is minimal - 3lbs over a steel, non-sunroof alternative, according to BMW official technical training manual for the G80. This is a repair manual, not some polished BMW marketing brochure, so they have absolutely reason to bend the truth about this plain fact.

Being generous, I say the sunroof components adds maybe another 30lbs tops. Then you factoring the weight lost subtracted for the giant hold they have to cut out to accommodate the glass panel, It might almost be a wash opting for either/or sunroof on a steel top.

Maybe if the carbon roof was standard, like on the M4, I might of consider it but at $2,600, for a part that amounts to nothing more than eye candy, they can keep that shit. I would rather spend 1/3 of that money and have them install a sunroof in the back also, before I cough up that fee ��

This quote is from an article on BMW-M site.

Does adding any options, such as sport differentials, add weight to either M3 or M4 models?

The Active M Differential comes as standard equipment for all M3 and M4 models. Of course, options can add weight (e.g. electric sunroof +23kg) or reduce weight (e.g. M Carbon bucket seats -10kg).

So carbon roof saves 50lbs on M4 vs a sunroof equipped car.

That is rather large weight savings.

[soflacarguy]

Originally Posted by M3WC

This quote is from an article on BMW-M site.

So carbon roof saves 50lbs on M4 vs a sunroof equipped car.

That is rather large weight savings.

I know a few people who would spend $2600 if it meant instantly shedding 50 lbs of fat off their body.

But on this car, is it really worth it? Imho only if your going all out on the full carbon package. Sure it looks nice. Otherwise its kind of negligible performance wise, and only makes sense if you're an anti sunroof elitist or truly need the extra head space.

I really wish BMW offered a credit of sorts for a sunroof delete.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by soflacarguy

I know a few people who would spend $2600 if it meant instantly shedding 50 lbs of fat off their body.

But on this car, is it really worth it? Imho only if your going all out on the full carbon package. Sure it looks nice. Otherwise its kind of negligible performance wise, and only makes sense if you're an anti sunroof elitist or truly need the extra head space.

I really wish BMW offered a credit of sorts for a sunroof delete.

Head space is key, need it for helmet room. I wish there was a no-cost sunroof delete(slicktop). That would be ideal. The weight savings is a bonus and if any car needs it, it is this one.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by M3WC

This quote is from an article on BMW-M site.

So carbon roof saves 50lbs on M4 vs a sunroof equipped car.

That is rather large weight savings.

That was probably a number he threw out in passing without actually confirming. I really don't believe it's such a drastic difference sunroof or nay. Had it been, BMW would of noted this in their marketing to push the carbon roof harder and a million BMW YouTube influencers would of made a video on this fact by now. Notice all we have is a bunch of assumptions with nothing of substance to back it up.

To be fair, I always heard that vehicles with sunroofs had to have an enhance frame built into every chassis to compensate for the hole in the roof, in order to retain the same level of stiffness, which added to the assumption of an increases the weight delta for BMWs with the sunroof option. This kept the weight-increase assumption alive for many generations of models but vehicles have evolve since then. Going though the G20 and G80 tech manuals, there is no mention of any different roof frame required for vehicles with or without the sunroof option. Maybe newer BMWs from the onset have a more ridge frame built into every chassis, eliminating the need for an enhance sunroof frame, thus, the supposed added weight which fuel this rumor is no longer relevant.

So we just have a steel roof with a hole in it, a slab of glass, cassette frame motor system and drain tube. I've held those sunroof parts from a BMW before in my hand, they did not amount to any more than 15lbs.

More or less my point is until someone actually shows me with certainty that there's a drastic weight gain by opting for the sunroof or any discernible effect on performance of the vehicle, I say this is all speculation to justify one's purchase.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Poochie

That was probably a number he threw out in passing without actually confirming. I really don't believe it's such a drastic difference sunroof or nay. Had it been, BMW would of noted this in their marketing to push the carbon roof harder and a million BMW YouTube influencers would of made a video on this fact by now. Notice all we have is a bunch of assumptions with nothing of substance to back it up.

To be fair, I always heard that vehicles with sunroofs had to have an enhance frame built into every chassis to compensate for the hole in the roof, in order to retain the same level of stiffness, which to add to assumption this increases the weight delta for BMWs with the sunroof option. This kept the weight-increase assumption alive for many model generations but vehicles evolve. Going though the G20 and G80 tech manuals, there is no mention of any different frame required for vehicle with or without the sunroof option.

So we have a steel roof with a hole in it, a slab of glass, cassette frame motor system and drain tube. I've held those sunroof parts from a BMW before in my hand, they did not amount to any more than 15lbs. Maybe newer BMWs from the onset have a more ridge frame built into every chassis, eliminating the need for an enhance sunroof frame, thus, the supposed added weight which fuel this rumor is no longer relevant.

More or less my point is until someone actually shows me with certainty that their a drastic weight gain by opting for the sunroof or any discernible effect on performance of the vehicle, I say this is all speculation to justify one's purchase.

That is from their marketing for M3/M4. It is from episode 1: Perf. And Weight. Q&A done with chief of engineering Klaus Fröhlich.

https://www.bmw-m.com/en/topics/maga...ce-weight.html

I remember back in the day. Someone on the E82 forum weighed their glass and cassette at 35lbs, when they did a carbon roof swap on their 135i. On a much larger vehicle like G82 I see 23kg or 50lbs being very plausible number.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by NightWriter

Go browse Rennlist about what GT owners think about centerlock wheels. (Spoiler: Look cool, huge PITA)

This is a true statement.

[dmboone25]

Price is surprisingly "modest", for the MSRP and no other options. I am pleasantly surprised - thought it would be higher, even though 63K is still a lot of money, there are definitely more standard features than the previous generation.

I think it would have been better to incorporate the cost of the CF roof into the base price (just make it 65K), and then give the option for slick top or moonroof for no additional cost.

For anyone who plans to daily their new M2, I would encourage you to try out the buckets in an M3/4 before checking that box. When I was optioning my 718 Spyder, I thought I really wanted them...until I tried getting in and out of a GT4 with the buckets, which wasn't easy for me (hello, pavement!). I am sure it gets easier over time, but just wasn't worth the hassle in my opinion.

In this case, the standard seats look like a nice upgrade over what we have in our OG M2, and are likely more comfortable.

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by M3WC

This quote is from an article on BMW-M site.



So carbon roof saves 50lbs on M4 vs a sunroof equipped car.

That is rather large weight savings.

Yes, it is. If you ask a factory trained BMW tech their thoughts on how much they feel the sunroof weights based upon R&I of a sunroof cassette, they feel it weights more than that.

[curtdragon]

Originally Posted by boostspoon

People want spec'd for the lowest possible price. The F87 Comp wasn't a traditional wallet opener of a luxury brand. It just hits different this time around being the styling is just so controversial.

There's gotta be more to why people aren't willing to open their wallets and it's likely the comparison of how not controversial the F87 Competition was in relation to every single thing on the G87

Here's to list some of my reserved thoughts on the G87:
- I love love love the side view of the car
- I'm okay with the rear, sometimes - but hate the carbon accessories
- I'm not a fan of the front bumper, but I can deal with it
- I hate the M colors on the interior door card, can that be turned off?
- I hate the M tri color std seats and prefer the F87 Comp. Would definitely want the carbon seats, but not with a $10k commit (esp knowing the M driver's pkg is bundled, jacking up the price)
- I'll stay neutral on the screen display just because the F87 tech is weak. But I hate how tacky it is...the feet on the back of the screen connecting to the dash looks like the feet on low-end tvs
- I hate the shift column, it just looks like cheap quality ripped from a korean auto brand
- I hate that manual and auto are the same price -- who got the better end of the stick here?
- I absolutely hate the rear brakes on this car and the G80

I have a F87 Comp and really don't mind spending ~7-10k difference after taxes for the G87. My name is on the list.

It's just a really tough one as despite all the issues I have with the G87, I would still love to own it. Of course, I'd need to let go of the F87 Comp.

Just helpless

Sounds like most of your gripes are forced.
When the time comes sell the F87 and get you a G87 because it just sounds like you're trying to convince yourself not to get it for some reason. Just dooo it

[curtdragon]

Originally Posted by T_U_D

Yes, it is. If you ask a factory trained BMW tech their thoughts on how much they feel the sunroof weights based upon R&I of a sunroof cassette, they feel it weights more than that.

Maybe the carbon roof isn't as light as we think it is

[carjoy]

Anyone know what the M Racetrack package and M Driver's package include? They are part of Carbon Package.

[T_U_D]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

Maybe the carbon roof isn't as light as we think it is

I bet it weights more than the twenty six $100 bills that it cost to purchase it.

[StickyPickle]

Originally Posted by Poochie

That was probably a number he threw out in passing without actually confirming. I really don't believe it's such a drastic difference sunroof or nay. Had it been, BMW would of noted this in their marketing to push the carbon roof harder and a million BMW YouTube influencers would of made a video on this fact by now. Notice all we have is a bunch of assumptions with nothing of substance to back it up.

To be fair, I always heard that vehicles with sunroofs had to have an enhance frame built into every chassis to compensate for the hole in the roof, in order to retain the same level of stiffness, which added to the assumption of an increases the weight delta for BMWs with the sunroof option. This kept the weight-increase assumption alive for many generations of models but vehicles have evolve since then. Going though the G20 and G80 tech manuals, there is no mention of any different roof frame required for vehicles with or without the sunroof option. Maybe newer BMWs from the onset have a more ridge frame built into every chassis, eliminating the need for an enhance sunroof frame, thus, the supposed added weight which fuel this rumor is no longer relevant.

So we just have a steel roof with a hole in it, a slab of glass, cassette frame motor system and drain tube. I've held those sunroof parts from a BMW before in my hand, they did not amount to any more than 15lbs.

More or less my point is until someone actually shows me with certainty that there's a drastic weight gain by opting for the sunroof or any discernible effect on performance of the vehicle, I say this is all speculation to justify one's purchase.

Most of the weight is in the glass itself, glass is heavy

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

Maybe the carbon roof isn't as light as we think it is

BMW rant and rave whenever they offer some random overpriced M Performance part that only nets a mere 3 to 10lbs difference.

You telling me if eliminating the sunroof gained you a whopping 50lbs difference over the carbon fiber option they wouldn't of made that fact know to public, ad nauseam. If this was actually true, BMW would probably post this fact on the window sicker or on the VIN plate. 😏

If you guys want spend $2,600 for a roof that's already included, then more power to you but let's not delude ourselves and throw common sense out the window.

50lbs+:

[curtdragon]

Originally Posted by carjoy

Anyone know what the M Racetrack package and M Driver's package include? They are part of Carbon Package.

Don't think anyone knows yet

[carjoy]

Originally Posted by Poochie

You're being unreasonable with your constant complaints on the cost of this vehicle.

I totally get it, inflation aside, 62k+ is still a lot of money for an automobile but BMW was never going to give it to you for free, so here we are and when you look at it in relative terms, you are getting a lot more standard features in comparison to its predecessor or current competitors.

I'm not a BMW apologist, quite the opposite; as I actually maintain an active mistrust of everyone and everything but aside from its questionable design elements, when you look at the big picture, this is really good package for the what they are asking for.

I don't expect anything for free sir. On the contrary, I also see value in the base vehicle. My issue is the bundling of five things that raise the price of car significantly, when all most want are the buckets.

Let's agree to disagree.

[carjoy]

Originally Posted by curtdragon

Don't think anyone knows yet

Perhaps the Racetrack package is for Cup 2 tires. Time will tell.

[Poochie]

Originally Posted by carjoy

I don't expect anything for free sir. On the contrary, I also see value in the base vehicle. My issue is the bundling of five things that raise the price of car significantly, when all most want are the buckets.

Let's agree to disagree.

No beef, just responding to other quote about big numbers for a 2 Series.

To add a little perspective, the base price for the G87 M2 is really not that bad when you consider that you can option up a M240i to $68,000.

Now when it comes to the cosmetic options, I already see every single carbon fiber add-on is just another way to separate consumers from their money, with the lure some shiny racing plastic. So I really can't shed a tear for anyone who feels it's overpriced. You want to go down that route, then you have to pay to play.

However, my point was, if you want a sensible optioned M vehicle without all the fluff, then BMW succeeded with this offering.